Why anarchists are not libertarians

kaz

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2010
78,025
22,327
2,190
Kazmania
What is a libertarian?

Libertarians use phrases to describe our views like the right to "life, liberty and property," and "you have the right to do anything you want as long as you don't infringe on other's right to do the same. They are accurate. To boil it down, libertarians as a political term, want to minimize government to the size where our liberty is maximized.

Where government does not belong is easy. Arrangements like jobs between private citizens. Forced confiscation and redistribution of wealth. Foreign aid. Military involvement to force political solutions in other countries. Government mandates to employers, health insurers and providers, ... For those types of things, voluntary choices are far more effective and it maximizes liberty to ban government from doing them.

To maximize liberty, government should perform only those functions which can only be effectively done by government because there must be an encompassing solution involving everyone or it doesn't work. No one who doesn't honor a contract or commits a crime is going to subject themselves to voluntary court. The same limited resources (land, water, ...) cannot be managed by competing voluntary organizations. They are not marketplace functions because they don't work when people have the choice of opting in or out. Areas government should be involved in include things like police, defense, civil and criminal courts, roads, that sort of thing.

Where libertarians generally come
The majority of libertarians come the path from fiscal conservative Republican who doesn't think government belongs in our bedroom or telling us what to do with our bodies. They are already 3/4 of the way there. I came from that path as well. Then they get the rest of the way there by starting to question things they used to believe made sense.

Three examples for me of the rest of the trip to libertarian were abortion, military "helping" other countries fight tyranny and the war on drugs. As I started to really see government for what it was, I started to see that everything they accomplished on those fronts was bad and the benefits never materialized. I did not change my values, I changed my view of matching reality to the "solution."

Where anarchists generally come
Anarchists follow the same general path, and they traveled through libertarian, which is why they identify with us. The difference is at some point they stopped pursuing limiting government for liberty sake and become ideologues. They just limited government for limiting government's sake, and they became anarchists. There is no logic to their views, which is why they can't answer simple questions.

You're in a field and there is a cliff. But it's dark and rainy and misty and you can't see more than three inches. You sit in fear afraid you'll fall off a cliff. A libertarian decides to feel with their hands. They reach out fearing a cliff, but feel solid ground. That is the solid ground of reason. So they move forward. Then they feel again, and go forward again. They do that until they reach the edge of the cliff. Then not feeling solid ground, they stop.

The anarchist does the same, but when they get to the edge of the cliff, they just say an answer will emerge and go on.
 
There is functionally no difference. Intellectually little difference between narco-libertarians and bolsheviks, except the narco's have a fetish for private property. All of it stems from narcissism and hedonism.
 
There is functionally no difference. Intellectually little difference between narco-libertarians and bolsheviks, except the narco's have a fetish for private property. All of it stems from narcissism and hedonism.

I'm not seeing the narcissism or hedonism in anarchy, can you be a little more specific?

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing, which is what they advocate. It would be a field day for the wicked. Anarchists can look at the Bolsheviks, Hitler, the mafia, inner city gangs and not grasp the threat they face to good men disbanding our defenses from that.

However, I don't see how your adjectives describe that or how it's their motivation.
 
Hedonism because "libertarian" frequently (not always) devolves into "I wanna do drugs with no one bothering me about it." Narcissism because "I am the most important thing in the universe." Both counts are a fail.
 
Hedonism because "libertarian" frequently (not always) devolves into "I wanna do drugs with no one bothering me about it." Narcissism because "I am the most important thing in the universe." Both counts are a fail.

So, you believe that government should not allow anything other than what you personally want to do, that is your standard. And we're the ones who think we're the "most important thing in the universe."

BTW, you do realize this thread is about the difference between libertarians and anarchists, correct?
 
This is why people think libertarians are stupid.

They may be right.

I certain ways I'd have to fully agree. What the OP fails to do, is describe with detail what anarchists stand for.

Let me put it to you softly.

You want a limited government, one restrained and put into its proper role. OK, I'd like that too. Now, lets face reality; it's a failed concept. The State never stays limited. Even under the greatest constitution ever created to restrain government. Total abject failure.

So, as a libertarian who started as a constitutionalist and fiscal conservative, the only next step on the stairs to take is to question the validity of government in its entirety. In that, anarchists believe in a voluntary society, completely and totally. Government is a monopoly on the use of force and violence and in so, it uses that force and violence to secure ever more authority over the individual. Both economically and socially.

In short, anarchy is the understanding that government is the problem in society and is a failed concept. The only true peaceful civilization must be free of a centralized monopoly on the use of force and violence and decentralize it down to each individual. Where problems arise from there, can be debated, and rightfully so.
 
This is why people think libertarians are stupid.

They may be right.

I certain ways I'd have to fully agree. What the OP fails to do, is describe with detail what anarchists stand for.

Let me put it to you softly.

You want a limited government, one restrained and put into its proper role. OK, I'd like that too. Now, lets face reality; it's a failed concept. The State never stays limited. Even under the greatest constitution ever created to restrain government. Total abject failure.

This is a fair point, and not missed on me. My answer is that this endless struggle is part of the human condition. There is no perfect answer. However, that anarchy is clear doesn't make it better. I actually gave a pretty clear standard for when I stop eliminating government. You're a thoughtful guy, I'd be interested in your addressing that rather than saying my answer isn't perfect, I respond to yours as not perfect, and we've gone nowhere.
 
Difference seems obvious.

One wants a limited government. One wants no government.
 
This is why people think libertarians are stupid.

They may be right.

I certain ways I'd have to fully agree. What the OP fails to do, is describe with detail what anarchists stand for.

Let me put it to you softly.

You want a limited government, one restrained and put into its proper role. OK, I'd like that too. Now, lets face reality; it's a failed concept. The State never stays limited. Even under the greatest constitution ever created to restrain government. Total abject failure.

This is a fair point, and not missed on me. My answer is that this endless struggle is part of the human condition. There is no perfect answer. However, that anarchy is clear doesn't make it better. I actually gave a pretty clear standard for when I stop eliminating government. You're a thoughtful guy, I'd be interested in your addressing that rather than saying my answer isn't perfect, I respond to yours as not perfect, and we've gone nowhere.

I bet when it comes to limiting government, we fully agree give or a take a few details. Those generally being in which actions should be left entirely voluntary as opposed to coerced.

The contention of anarchists is built on the failure of a limited government. That government, more often than not, not only fails to protect individual and property rights, but is in fact the culprit of infringing upon them.

The human condition. In some ways I agree with that sentiment. In other ways I view the state as simply an archaic concept morphed to be more palatable to people who have struggled for years under oppression from elitist groups that want to control society. Most people associate anarchy with chaos. But what it really means is "no ruler". Be it 300 and some people, or one.
 
I bet when it comes to limiting government, we fully agree give or a take a few details. Those generally being in which actions should be left entirely voluntary as opposed to coerced.

The contention of anarchists is built on the failure of a limited government. That government, more often than not, not only fails to protect individual and property rights, but is in fact the culprit of infringing upon them.

The human condition. In some ways I agree with that sentiment. In other ways I view the state as simply an archaic concept morphed to be more palatable to people who have struggled for years under oppression from elitist groups that want to control society. Most people associate anarchy with chaos. But what it really means is "no ruler". Be it 300 and some people, or one.

Fair comments takeastepback. My question was more specific though. I did say where I think stopping eliminating government is a bad thing, I'm interested in your thoughts on that.

kaz said:
To maximize liberty, government should perform only those functions which can only be effectively done by government because there must be an encompassing solution involving everyone or it doesn't work. No one who doesn't honor a contract or commits a crime is going to subject themselves to voluntary court. The same limited resources (land, water, ...) cannot be managed by competing voluntary organizations. They are not marketplace functions because they don't work when people have the choice of opting in or out. Areas government should be involved in include things like police, defense, civil and criminal courts, roads, that sort of thing.
 
Let me see if I understand the question, and forgive me if it appears Im not catching on. Your question is - what functions of society can only be effectively accomplished by government? Yes?

( I will answer presuming I understand the proper question)
 
Let me see if I understand the question, and forgive me if it appears Im not catching on. Your question is - what functions of society can only be effectively accomplished by government? Yes?

( I will answer presuming I understand the proper question)

Yes, and in addition your view of why I draw the line where I do. That was what I was quoting from my op above.
 
Hedonism because "libertarian" frequently (not always) devolves into "I wanna do drugs with no one bothering me about it." Narcissism because "I am the most important thing in the universe." Both counts are a fail.

So, you believe that government should not allow anything other than what you personally want to do, that is your standard. And we're the ones who think we're the "most important thing in the universe."

BTW, you do realize this thread is about the difference between libertarians and anarchists, correct?

Oy. Why is it narco-libertarians always come off as arrogant, rude, assholes who think they know everything? And they give exactly the same responses to any given question.
 
Hedonism because "libertarian" frequently (not always) devolves into "I wanna do drugs with no one bothering me about it." Narcissism because "I am the most important thing in the universe." Both counts are a fail.

So, you believe that government should not allow anything other than what you personally want to do, that is your standard. And we're the ones who think we're the "most important thing in the universe."

BTW, you do realize this thread is about the difference between libertarians and anarchists, correct?

Oy. Why is it narco-libertarians always come off as arrogant, rude, assholes who think they know everything? And they give exactly the same responses to any given question.

I think some would say that about me. I think EVERYONE would say that about you. I do like the irony.

Frankly I was even directly addressing your point. You said if I think drugs should be legal, that means I want to do drugs. Why can you say that is your standard for me, but when I ask is that your standard for yourself, you call me an arrogant, rude, asshole who thinks I know everything?

Maybe that's WHY everyone thinks that about you. You're certainly acting like an arrogant, rude asshole who thinks you know everything. Your standards don't apply to yourself. You can't handle a question without getting upset.
 
Please post where I said if you want drugs to be legal you want to do drugs. There was no such comment.

Here you go. I know lots of libertarians and none of them to my knowledge do drugs at all or are motivated by that. Why can't we just think it's none of government's business? That you're a "small government" conservative makes the charge even more flamingly ridiculous.

And also that you're a "small government" conservative who isn't phased by the incredible intrusion into our freedom and privacy done in the name of drugs is ridiculous as well.

Or that you didn't learn from prohibition and the fall of organized crime when it ended. Yet you advocate we pursue policies that fund drug gangs and destabalize governments from Columbia to Afghanistan.

And then ... hello ... WE STILL HAVE THE DRUGS!

All you can come up with is that we "frequently (not always)" want do do drugs. It's far more obviously a that we're not retarded and don't want our liberty eroded because of a bunch of socon prudes with sticks shoved up their asses won't open their eyes and see the obviousness of the world around them.

Hedonism because "libertarian" frequently (not always) devolves into "I wanna do drugs with no one bothering me about it."
 
Let me see if I understand the question, and forgive me if it appears Im not catching on. Your question is - what functions of society can only be effectively accomplished by government? Yes?

( I will answer presuming I understand the proper question)

Yes, and in addition your view of why I draw the line where I do. That was what I was quoting from my op above.

I believe the only true and effective accomplishment for government, involves protecting individual and property rights through due process. I think government has absolutely no place at all in the economy, with the exception of perhaps (arguably) legal tender laws. Such as coining gold.

Other than that, I believe, and history has a way of verifying my belief, that the private sector can handle the rest more efficiency and with less coercion. In fact, almost none.

I believe you draw the line where you do because you haven't seen it work any other way. I think thats just normal. Sometimes I have a hard time wrapping my head around these things myself, and Ive been at it a long time.

Anyway, as far as anarchy and libertarians are concerned in difference, I agree that libertarianism is a political stance. while anarchy is an ethical and philosophical one.
 
Please post where I said if you want drugs to be legal you want to do drugs. There was no such comment.

Here you go. I know lots of libertarians and none of them to my knowledge do drugs at all or are motivated by that. Why can't we just think it's none of government's business? That you're a "small government" conservative makes the charge even more flamingly ridiculous.

And also that you're a "small government" conservative who isn't phased by the incredible intrusion into our freedom and privacy done in the name of drugs is ridiculous as well.

Or that you didn't learn from prohibition and the fall of organized crime when it ended. Yet you advocate we pursue policies that fund drug gangs and destabalize governments from Columbia to Afghanistan.

And then ... hello ... WE STILL HAVE THE DRUGS!

All you can come up with is that we "frequently (not always)" want do do drugs. It's far more obviously a that we're not retarded and don't want our liberty eroded because of a bunch of socon prudes with sticks shoved up their asses won't open their eyes and see the obviousness of the world around them.

Hedonism because "libertarian" frequently (not always) devolves into "I wanna do drugs with no one bothering me about it."

OK, so I didnt say anything like that. I accept your apology.
 

Forum List

Back
Top