Why am I a liberal?

[CrusaderFrank]

Libs want everyone to start at the bottom...and stay there

 

[J3ffr3y]

So you think everyone should be graded on a curve huh?

quite the opposite I think all should earn their place even those with successful parents...

Okay. So you think "all should earn their place". That sounds fine. a typical nonsense statement. In other words, yeah no shit. Who would argue with that? Unfortunately it is way far wide of the mark as it relates to the fundamental debate about "death taxes" or "inheritance taxes", estate taxes essentially.

Why? Because someone did earn it. What a person earns n their lifetime is theirs in every way. The money a person makes, the wealth they accumulate, is what they have received in exchange for their time, sweat, and/or the application of their talents and skills. In essence, it is what they given their very lives for. Nothing can be more legitimately owned. That said, it is theirs to give to whoever they may wish and thus becomes just as legitimately the rightful property of whoever that person or people happens to be. Got that?

I don't see how it is that so many people think nothing of suggesting that going after this particular classification of wealth even more aggressively than we already do is justifiable or moral in any way. The idea that, for example, a father giving to his son what is rightfully his- in every way- is a transaction which the federal government, or anyone else for that matter, should stick their nose in, and furthermore demand a cut, is offensive to the point of absurdity. Especially given the fact that we are talking about money that has already been taxed. Never mind the fact that taxing all such wealth at 100% wouldn't get this country out of debt by a long-shot and likely wouldn't even cover the interest on said debt for long. In other words, stealing from your fellow citizens using your vote as a burglary tool will get you nowhere in the end, it will never be enough.


J3ffr3y

 

[Oldstyle]

A rejection of emotion in favor of reason is the hallmark of the liberal. As I said in my intro, I started out as a conservative. All children do. It's the infant's philosophy. And as most children tend to do, I grew out of conservatism. Being in the military, being employed, those factors almost always create liberals.

Liberalism is just common sense. We don't have hysterical emotional attachments to any position. If it works, then we do it. (To a certain extent. We also understand the dangers of pure utilitarianism, and thus understand that practicality has to be tempered with a little idealism.)

Now, compare that to conservatism. Supply-side economics has been a dismal failure for decades ... and they demand more! There's a whole list of politically correct party planks that good conservatives are required to believe, upon penality of being purged from TheParty. Abortion, global warming, immigration, gay marriage, taxation ... a conservative _must_ believe them all. Because TheParty so orders.

In contrast, I can and do disagree with the Democrats on several major points ... and no one cares. No screaming that I'm a DINO, no purges. That's because the Democrats aren't a political cult like the Republicans are.

You have such a stunted view of the Republican Party it's almost farcical. I'm a conservative who is pro-choice and has no problem with gay marriage and I've not been "purged" from the Republican Party. What people like you can't seem to understand is that the overwhelming thing that bonds the modern conservative movement together is fiscal conservatism. Things like abortion and gay marriage are wedges that liberals continually attempt to use to drive the Republican Party apart, usually without success. I'm a Republican because the Democratic Party believes that it's fine to take from those who have worked hard to give to those who have not.

 

[Skull Pilot]

So you think everyone should be graded on a curve huh?

quite the opposite I think all should earn their place even those with successful parents...

So indexing income to CEO pay is not the same as grading on a curve in your book?

To me it's exactly the same.

You cheapen the efforts of those who succeed in order to promote mediocrity and dependence in those who are too lazy to do the work.

 

[GoneBezerk]

You're just a dumbfuck.

What you really believe without knowing it is that you want the school at graduation day to change the grades to help some idiots graduate by taking points off the top students and giving it to the dumb students for a "fair shot" in life with everyone getting a degree in the end.

So you think everyone should be graded on a curve huh?

quite the opposite I think all should earn their place even those with successful parents...

 

[GoneBezerk]

The Inheritance tax is anti-economic progress because it doesn't stimulate people saving their wealth to pass on to the next generation and it also doesn't motivate them to work harder to get more wealth when it will be stolen in the end anyway.

Why the hell should someone work 16 hour workdays in their business for that extra wealth when the Govt is just going to take it to give to the bum sleeping outside the business.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The Inheritance tax is anti-economic progress because it doesn't stimulate people saving their wealth to pass on to the next generation and it also doesn't motivate them to work harder to get more wealth when it will be stolen in the end anyway.

Why the hell should someone work 16 hour workdays in their business for that extra wealth when the Govt is just going to take it to give to the bum sleeping outside the business.

If people were allowed to keep more of their own money, and by people I mean everyone not just the rich (whoever they are), then not as many people would be dependent on government programs and we can't have that now can we?

 

[IGetItAlready]

So you think everyone should be graded on a curve huh?

quite the opposite I think all should earn their place even those with successful parents...

I neglected to comment on your post before but when you so blatantly invite the government into that family that you claim means so much to you as to make you a liberal, going so far as to offer it the seat at your right hand, I think it's worth pointing out that you appear to see humans as little more than livestock grazing a federal pasture with no claim to their own plot of grass.

Why would anyone strive to achieve beyond a comfortable living for themselves when and if your dream of preventing people from providing a better life for their children is realized?

 

[bornright]

After some consideration I arrived on four succinct statements, which I believe also gave me some insight to what motivates the “other” side.

I am a parent.
As a parent I will do anything within my power to advantage my child.
I am a citizen.
As a citizen I believe it is vitally important that we write rules that prevent that.

It is only natural that parents do all they can for their children, however as wealth accumulates this presents a threat to democracy. This is the threat that concerned Jefferson when he spoke of the need for inheritance taxes, not as a form of revenue but a means to protect the democracy from citizens that might become too powerful, and then threaten the will of the people. It is easy to see how this has become the case in America today.

The dangers of inherited wealth to our economy are not unlike monarchy to the health of any nation, when power is derived from birthright rather than one’s labor it is more often foolishly applied. As more and more of our economy becomes “inherited wealth” it becomes more of a target for con men and less a tool for innovators. The world’s financial power has been diverted from improving the human condition into money making schemes designed to enrich those who create them.

I do have some specific suggestions that I feel would be helpful long term:

Public financing for public elections
Flat rate Social Security Tax, first dollar to last all forms of income
Index minimum wage to the average increase in CEO pay for the S&P 500

That’s about it, that shouldn’t be too hard to do, right?

Do you also feel education should be limited so no child will have a greater opportunity than someone else? Many of us work for our children's future opportunity. Your distaste for what you called "inherited wealth" is not something I can ever accept. The individuals that provide opportunities for their children whether it be financial or educational is none of your business. If you want your children to have opportunities work harder instead of taking money that I have earned for mine.

I have no problem with public financing for public elections if funds are greatly limited.

I have no problem with a flat rate Social Security Tax regardless of income if the maximum amount one can recieve is removed and replaced with an equal percentage to what everyone else receives compared to what they pay in.

I do not believe in minimum wage at all. There should be no hourly wage. Merit pay is the only fair way. Hourly wage creates lazy people.

 

[Shelzin]

My badd. You are right I made a assumption that I shouldn't have. I just ... Found it odd that you would look down on a liberal without knowing you are one, unless you were drinking the republican cool-aid.

If you are a libertarian, you are a liberal. So... Why the hate on them?

Where in the hell did you come up with something that insane? A libertarian is as far to the right as you can get before you get to anarchist (no government at all). A liberal is as far to the left as you can get (goverment control over everything and everyone).

A liberal believes that the Constitution is open to unlimited "interpretation". The libertarian believes in strictly adhering to the Constitution as it is written.

...because he is referring to classical liberalism. He thought he was being clever.


Jeffrey

I'm always clever Jeffrey... I'm just lovable.

 

[bripat9643]

So you think everyone should be graded on a curve huh?

quite the opposite I think all should earn their place even those with successful parents...

That's just your way of saying that you think you're entitled to what someone else earned.

 

[Liability]

So you think everyone should be graded on a curve huh?

quite the opposite I think all should earn their place even those with successful parents...

And what, then, do you propose be done with the wealth earned (and accumulated) by those successful parents?

Is it yours to confiscate?

And by "yours," of course, I allude to the government.

 

[asaratis]

Didn’t anybody on this forum go to school? Or know how to read?


“If the overgrown wealth of an individual be deemed dangerous to the State, the best corrective is the law of equal inheritance to all in equal degree; and the better, as this enforces a law of nature, while extra-taxation violates it.” T. Jefferson 1816




The Jeffersonian Cyclopedia: A Comprehensive Collection of the Views of ... - Thomas Jefferson - Google Books



How like a con to take it out of context you would think you would have more respect for Jefferson.....

How ironic. You don't even realize he is talking about eliminating the practice of primogeniture and entail, which I clearly pointed out to you above. And YOU took that quote out of context! Double irony.

He is saying eliminating primogeniture is the way to go and plainly states that extra-taxation is the WRONG solution to concentrated wealth.

.

How did I take it out of context? Jefferson is saying if the rich get too rich the best thing to do is take it all and spread it around evenly, I don't think he ever imagined we would go to war and such without paying for it and end up with the kind of debt we got now, so I say take it and pay the debt, it's just the right thing to do.

Jefferson said nothing of spreading wealth evenly. He merely allowed inheritance outside of the family.

 

[GreatDay]

How ironic. You don't even realize he is talking about eliminating the practice of primogeniture and entail, which I clearly pointed out to you above. And YOU took that quote out of context! Double irony.

He is saying eliminating primogeniture is the way to go and plainly states that extra-taxation is the WRONG solution to concentrated wealth.

.

How did I take it out of context? Jefferson is saying if the rich get too rich the best thing to do is take it all and spread it around evenly, I don't think he ever imagined we would go to war and such without paying for it and end up with the kind of debt we got now, so I say take it and pay the debt, it's just the right thing to do.

Jefferson said nothing of spreading wealth evenly. He merely allowed inheritance outside of the family.

You know I'm not really a history buff I notice how all the cons on the site don't want to talk about ideals; that really doesn't surprise me much, their ideals being so wrong for this country and all, anyway who really gives a shit what Jefferson said fact is most of America’s great wealth has fallen into weak hands through inheritance because the people have let themselves be convinced somehow they don’t have any rights to this country, that’s what Royals are always telling the peasants isn’t it?

But now they call it “The Government” and try to make the people afraid of their own servant.

But then they should be as long as they let the trust fund babies pick who gets to run.

 

[Moonglow]

As I read American history I have the feeling that while money was of great importance to the founders, the future of America was almost of equal importance. The leaders of early America built for the future and had some pretty great visions of that future; today as I read some of these posts, it all seems to be about money, with few other visions.

 

[GreatDay]

As I read American history I have the feeling that while money was of great importance to the founders, the future of America was almost of equal importance. The leaders of early America built for the future and had some pretty great visions of that future; today as I read some of these posts, it all seems to be about money, with few other visions.

There was a day when the Crown owned the nation, and everyone knew who the boss was, the day he was born, come to think of it that's a lot like America today.

Class Matters - Social Class in the United States of America - The New York Times

 

[IGetItAlready]

How did I take it out of context? Jefferson is saying if the rich get too rich the best thing to do is take it all and spread it around evenly, I don't think he ever imagined we would go to war and such without paying for it and end up with the kind of debt we got now, so I say take it and pay the debt, it's just the right thing to do.

Jefferson said nothing of spreading wealth evenly. He merely allowed inheritance outside of the family.

You know I'm not really a history buff I notice how all the cons on the site don't want to talk about ideals; that really doesn't surprise me much, their ideals being so wrong for this country and all, anyway who really gives a shit what Jefferson said fact is most of America’s great wealth has fallen into weak hands through inheritance because the people have let themselves be convinced somehow they don’t have any rights to this country, that’s what Royals are always telling the peasants isn’t it?

But now they call it “The Government” and try to make the people afraid of their own servant.

But then they should be as long as they let the trust fund babies pick who gets to run.

Stunning...
Not much to be said as I believe you've just debunked your own OP.
Nice job?

 

[Oldstyle]

The reason we fought against the "Crown" was their bad habit of assuming our money was their money. How is that different from the average progressive these days?

 

[gallantwarrior]

The reason we fought against the "Crown" was their bad habit of assuming our money was their money. How is that different from the average progressive these days?

But, but, but....progressives do it "democratically" and with the greater good in their hearts!

 

[Oldstyle]

The reason we fought against the "Crown" was their bad habit of assuming our money was their money. How is that different from the average progressive these days?

But, but, but....progressives do it "democratically" and with the greater good in their hearts!

Ah, yes..."the greater good"! Why is it when progressives start talking about "fairness" and "the greater good" they always seem to have their hands in my pockets looking for my wallet?