Whoops! CIA Man Retracts Claim on Waterboarding

[CMike]

Those attacks occurred two to three months after 911 BEFORE Pres. Bush was able to implement his strategies.

As I said for 7 years we were free of them within the US, and we have 3 so far under Obama.

And yes we believe the CIA, because that is the agency responsible for interrogating these terrorists. They have accountability for what they say.

And we don't believe anonymous sources from the NYT and people who had no clue what happened during the CIA interrogations.

 

[Coyote]

Those attacks occurred two to three months after 911 BEFORE Pres. Bush was able to implement his strategies.

As I said for 7 years we were free of them within the US, and we have 3 so far under Obama.

And yes we believe the CIA, because that is the agency responsible for interrogating these terrorists. They have accountability for what they say.

You need to look beyond your rightwing talking points. Granted, the anthrax attacks occurred only a week after 9/11 so I'll accept policies weren't in place yet.

However, 3-4 months out (when security policies should be in place) we have:
December 22: 2001 shoe bomb plot
December 12: Jewish Defense League plot by Chairman Irv Rubin and follower Earl Krugel to blow up the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City, California, and the office of Lebanese-American Rep. Darrell Issa, foiled.

Over one year out we have:
July 2002: July 4: An Egyptian gunman opens fire at an El Al ticket counter in Los Angeles International Airport, killing two Israelis before being killed himself.

October 2002: Beltway Sniper Attacks

March 2006: United States United States: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, an Iranian-born graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, drives an SUV onto a crowded part of campus, injuring nine.

July 2006: A woman was dead and five others were hospitalized this afternoon after a shooting at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle building in downtown Seattle by a man who declared he was "angry with Israel."

August 2006: United States: An Afghani Muslim hit 19 pedestrians, killing one, with his SUV in the San Francisco Bay area.

December 2006: United States: Federal Agents disrupt Derrick Shareef’s attack on an Illinois shopping mall planned for December 22nd. His intent was to commit “violent jihad” just before Christmas.

February 2007: A teenage gunman kills five bystanders and wounds four more in a popular shopping center before being shot dead by police in the Trolley Square shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah.

October 2007: A pair of improvised explosive devices are thrown at the Mexican Consulate in New York City. The fake grenades were filled with black powder and detonated by fuses, causing very minor damage. Police investigate the connection between this and a similar attack against the British Consulate in New York in 2005.

July 2008: Knoxville, Tennessee. Knoxville Unitarian Universalist church shooting, Jim David Adkisson kills 2 people and injures 7 in Knoxville, Tennessee.

December 2008: Woodburn, Oregon. Woodburn police Capt. Tom Tennant, and Oregon State Police bomb technician Bill Hakim were killed, and Woodburn Police Chief Scott Russell was critically injured after a bomb exploded at the West Coast branch of Wells Fargo in Woodburn.

Source is Wikipedia lists of terrorist attacks world wide.

So what new excuses are you going to come up with to change the goal posts?

And we don't believe anonymous sources from the NYT and people who had no clue what happened during the CIA interrogations.

Yet you'll accept the word of anonymous sources for the CIA - an agency known to have lied. Your inconsistencies are to be applauded.

 

[CMike]

I am talking about terrorist attacks in the war against Al Qaida, not all shooting incidents in the past decade.

The name on the memo John Rizzo is not anonymous. He is accountable for what was in the memo.

 

[Coyote]

I am talking about terrorist attacks in the war against Al Qaida, not all shooting incidents in the past decade.

The name on the memo John Rizzo is not anonymous. He is accountable for what was in the memo.

Ah. So you change the goal posts to only Al Queda attacks. I'm sure that makes a big difference to those killed that only Al Queda attacks count in your book.

In that case, that calls into question these attacks:

June 2009: Little Rock, Arkansas Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, an American Muslim opened fire on a U.S. military recruiting office.

Muhammad was not part of any terrorist group, nor was his attack part of a larger conspiracy, according to Thomas. "We believe that it's associated with his disagreement over the military operations," the police chief said.​

..as well as the Fort Hood shooting, where the shooter was apparently self-radicalized, mentally unstable, and acted alone.

 

[Coyote]

The apologists flailing away in their attempt to stick to their rightwing talking points that there were no terrorist attacks under Bush are certainly amusing.

Keep digging, the hole is only getting deeper.

 

[Coyote]

I am talking about terrorist attacks in the war against Al Qaida, not all shooting incidents in the past decade.

The name on the memo John Rizzo is not anonymous. He is accountable for what was in the memo.

John Rizzo was present during the interrogations?

 

[CMike]

I am talking about terrorist attacks in the war against Al Qaida, not all shooting incidents in the past decade.

The name on the memo John Rizzo is not anonymous. He is accountable for what was in the memo.

John Rizzo was present during the interrogations?

Perhaps. It was his agency. He summed up what happened in the memo. He is accountable for what he wrote.

You expect each CIA interrogator to write a separate memo to the justice department?

That is a lot difference than when the left wing rag the NYT says blah blah blah, according to unnamed sources.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Those attacks occurred two to three months after 911 BEFORE Pres. Bush was able to implement his strategies.

As I said for 7 years we were free of them within the US, and we have 3 so far under Obama.

And yes we believe the CIA, because that is the agency responsible for interrogating these terrorists. They have accountability for what they say.

You need to look beyond your rightwing talking points. Granted, the anthrax attacks occurred only a week after 9/11 so I'll accept policies weren't in place yet.

However, 3-4 months out (when security policies should be in place) we have:
December 22: 2001 shoe bomb plot
December 12: Jewish Defense League plot by Chairman Irv Rubin and follower Earl Krugel to blow up the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City, California, and the office of Lebanese-American Rep. Darrell Issa, foiled.

Over one year out we have:
July 2002: July 4: An Egyptian gunman opens fire at an El Al ticket counter in Los Angeles International Airport, killing two Israelis before being killed himself.

October 2002: Beltway Sniper Attacks

March 2006: United States United States: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, an Iranian-born graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, drives an SUV onto a crowded part of campus, injuring nine.

July 2006: A woman was dead and five others were hospitalized this afternoon after a shooting at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle building in downtown Seattle by a man who declared he was "angry with Israel."

August 2006: United States: An Afghani Muslim hit 19 pedestrians, killing one, with his SUV in the San Francisco Bay area.

December 2006: United States: Federal Agents disrupt Derrick Shareef’s attack on an Illinois shopping mall planned for December 22nd. His intent was to commit “violent jihad” just before Christmas.

February 2007: A teenage gunman kills five bystanders and wounds four more in a popular shopping center before being shot dead by police in the Trolley Square shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah.

October 2007: A pair of improvised explosive devices are thrown at the Mexican Consulate in New York City. The fake grenades were filled with black powder and detonated by fuses, causing very minor damage. Police investigate the connection between this and a similar attack against the British Consulate in New York in 2005.

July 2008: Knoxville, Tennessee. Knoxville Unitarian Universalist church shooting, Jim David Adkisson kills 2 people and injures 7 in Knoxville, Tennessee.

December 2008: Woodburn, Oregon. Woodburn police Capt. Tom Tennant, and Oregon State Police bomb technician Bill Hakim were killed, and Woodburn Police Chief Scott Russell was critically injured after a bomb exploded at the West Coast branch of Wells Fargo in Woodburn.

Source is Wikipedia lists of terrorist attacks world wide.

So what new excuses are you going to come up with to change the goal posts?

And we don't believe anonymous sources from the NYT and people who had no clue what happened during the CIA interrogations.

Yet you'll accept the word of anonymous sources for the CIA - an agency known to have lied. Your inconsistencies are to be applauded.

You've got to be kidding me.....blaming all of this shit on Bush????!!! You better recheck those cases and your left wing talking points....Let me ask you this...the 2 main tools that allowed us to prevent terrorist attacks here in the USA, Patriot Act and FISA modifications....when were they passed into law?

and YOU just cherry picking crimes committed by Muslims calling them terrorist attacks????!!! Shame on you...

 

[CurveLight]

We used water boarding on 3 people. Supposedly we received some valuable information from them that probably saved American lives. At the time it was sanctioned by the Government, now it isn't. I don't know about this former agent and why he would lie. Obviously we cannot believe anything he says now.

I believe that we were justified in the use of enhanced measures, and I believe they were only used when it was thought that lives could be saved.

Pay attention folks. This is the problem with America. Whatever we do it is "necessary" regardless if it is torture or killing innocent civilians. Look how he also claimed we waterboarded only 3 people. How does he know that? Did the press friendly Cheney administration openly share these claims and back them up with facts? Or did he invent that number to serve his only Master? Furthermore, with the secret prisons we operate around the globe, how can Americans know what is being done in our name?

 

[CurveLight]

Torture has specific definitions in codified U.S. Law. Waterboarding DID NOT fall under any of those laws. If it did, Obama wouldn't have had to ban it now would he? You can argue all you want over semantics but clearly the law will have to be adhered to. In this case prior to Obama specifically outlawing the interrogation method, it was legal. SERE school started in the 1950's. Students were waterboarded there for 60 years. It wasn't illegal. Time to move on...this won't win any more elections for the progressives.

Special Forces are waterboarded precisely because it is torture used to force false confessions by certain deplorable enemy nations, so that they can attempt to withstand the torture. Using SERE as justification for it not being torture is completely ass-backwards.

Waterboarding clearly meets the definition of torture outlined in the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which the U.S. ratified (making it according to Article VI of the Constitution, "the supreme law of the land") and Ronald Reagan proudly endorsed.

The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called "universal jurisdiction." Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.

Not only is waterboarding torture, but so is multi-day bouts of sleep deprivation, threats that detainee's families will be raped or killed, placing them in coffins with insects, punching and kicking them, sicking dogs on them, sexually humiliating them, and lets not forget the forced sodomy by foreign objects. Not only is waterboarding torture, but it's far from the only torture method Yoo's memos authorized and the CIA, JSOC, and military interrogators used.

The State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices explicitly recognized that certain techniques the CIA was currently using in "coercive interrogations" were the same techniques the U.S. had for years been condemning as torture when employed by other countries. This includes not only waterboarding, but extended forced nudity, cold water dousing to induce hypothermia, extended forced sleep deprivation, extended stress positions, punching, kicking, etc.

These techniques are and always have been torture. The authorization of their use didn't change any of that. The Administration wanted to torture detainees and tried to get their lawyers to find a way to get around the laws preventing it. No one they asked gave them the answer they wanted until they made their way down to a low-level functionary named John Yoo who gave them the "legal opinion" they asked for. An attorney telling you he thinks maybe the law can be interpreted to allow you to do something doesn't make it legal. The use of waterboarding, like the denial of habeas corpus and many other Bush-era practices, were justified by legal opinions they requested but when those justifications finally saw the light of day and made it to the Supreme Court, they were stricken down as absurd, pseudo-legal nonsense.

The basis of your argument is that if a crime is not prosecuted, it is not a crime. That's entirely specious, by your rationale anyone who gets away with murder must not have done anything wrong.

Waterboarding is torture and torture is a crime, whether the government has the balls to uphold the law and prosecute those responsible for it or not. Crimes just don't cease to be because of prosecutorial inaction.

Again, your belief that the law is on your side because no one has been prosecuted really just demonstrates that you're not bright and don't understand that the legal system is not an automated process wherein any crime committed is automatically tried. Because of the high-ranking, politically connected and powerful people who committed these felonies, and the scandal that would result when say the former Vice President, Secretary of Defense, OLC lawyers, and the current Speaker of the House were found guilty of authorizing torture and sentenced to decades in prison, the DOJ lacks the will to investigate and charge them.

Blah blah blah.

The fact is that it was used 3 times. When it was used was under strict criteria.

It stopped a massive terrorist attack of terrorists flying a plane into a LA building.

If it wasn't used, the terrorist attack would have occurred.

I am grateful that it was used, and those CIA people deserve a medal for saving countless american lives.

What happens in the secret prisons we operate?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Special Forces are waterboarded precisely because it is torture used to force false confessions by certain deplorable enemy nations, so that they can attempt to withstand the torture. Using SERE as justification for it not being torture is completely ass-backwards.

Waterboarding clearly meets the definition of torture outlined in the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which the U.S. ratified (making it according to Article VI of the Constitution, "the supreme law of the land") and Ronald Reagan proudly endorsed.





Not only is waterboarding torture, but so is multi-day bouts of sleep deprivation, threats that detainee's families will be raped or killed, placing them in coffins with insects, punching and kicking them, sicking dogs on them, sexually humiliating them, and lets not forget the forced sodomy by foreign objects. Not only is waterboarding torture, but it's far from the only torture method Yoo's memos authorized and the CIA, JSOC, and military interrogators used.

The State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices explicitly recognized that certain techniques the CIA was currently using in "coercive interrogations" were the same techniques the U.S. had for years been condemning as torture when employed by other countries. This includes not only waterboarding, but extended forced nudity, cold water dousing to induce hypothermia, extended forced sleep deprivation, extended stress positions, punching, kicking, etc.

These techniques are and always have been torture. The authorization of their use didn't change any of that. The Administration wanted to torture detainees and tried to get their lawyers to find a way to get around the laws preventing it. No one they asked gave them the answer they wanted until they made their way down to a low-level functionary named John Yoo who gave them the "legal opinion" they asked for. An attorney telling you he thinks maybe the law can be interpreted to allow you to do something doesn't make it legal. The use of waterboarding, like the denial of habeas corpus and many other Bush-era practices, were justified by legal opinions they requested but when those justifications finally saw the light of day and made it to the Supreme Court, they were stricken down as absurd, pseudo-legal nonsense.

The basis of your argument is that if a crime is not prosecuted, it is not a crime. That's entirely specious, by your rationale anyone who gets away with murder must not have done anything wrong.

Waterboarding is torture and torture is a crime, whether the government has the balls to uphold the law and prosecute those responsible for it or not. Crimes just don't cease to be because of prosecutorial inaction.

Again, your belief that the law is on your side because no one has been prosecuted really just demonstrates that you're not bright and don't understand that the legal system is not an automated process wherein any crime committed is automatically tried. Because of the high-ranking, politically connected and powerful people who committed these felonies, and the scandal that would result when say the former Vice President, Secretary of Defense, OLC lawyers, and the current Speaker of the House were found guilty of authorizing torture and sentenced to decades in prison, the DOJ lacks the will to investigate and charge them.

Blah blah blah.

The fact is that it was used 3 times. When it was used was under strict criteria.

It stopped a massive terrorist attack of terrorists flying a plane into a LA building.

If it wasn't used, the terrorist attack would have occurred.

I am grateful that it was used, and those CIA people deserve a medal for saving countless american lives.

What happens in the secret prisons we operate?

That question should be addressed to Bill Clinton. He's the one who started the program back in the 90's.

 

[CurveLight]

Blah blah blah.

The fact is that it was used 3 times. When it was used was under strict criteria.

It stopped a massive terrorist attack of terrorists flying a plane into a LA building.

If it wasn't used, the terrorist attack would have occurred.

I am grateful that it was used, and those CIA people deserve a medal for saving countless american lives.

What happens in the secret prisons we operate?

That question should be addressed to Bill Clinton. He's the one who started the program back in the 90's.

You're a jackass bitch that really sucks at dialogue as proven by your response. Doesn't matter who started it and that is a childish distraction but fully expected from an asswipe like you. Stop whining and answer the question or be safe and do nothing but your dumbass attempts at distraction.

 

[amrchaos]

The only problem I have with the torturing--uhh, I meant "Humane enhanced interrorgation techniques" that were used is as follows.

"cough cough" Why in the hell did you tell the public? Are you F--ing insane?? That is the kind of thing politicians are supposed to lie about!! Republicans--go into the political wilderness for 2 years!! No brownie points for you!!

 

[Coyote]

I am talking about terrorist attacks in the war against Al Qaida, not all shooting incidents in the past decade.

The name on the memo John Rizzo is not anonymous. He is accountable for what was in the memo.

John Rizzo was present during the interrogations?

Perhaps. It was his agency. He summed up what happened in the memo. He is accountable for what he wrote.

You expect each CIA interrogator to write a separate memo to the justice department?

That is a lot difference than when the left wing rag the NYT says blah blah blah, according to unnamed sources.

But you don't know if he was there. Therefore his word has no more relevance than the FBI. According to your logic.

 

[Coyote]

You've got to be kidding me.....blaming all of this shit on Bush????!!! You better recheck those cases and your left wing talking points....Let me ask you this...the 2 main tools that allowed us to prevent terrorist attacks here in the USA, Patriot Act and FISA modifications....when were they passed into law?

and YOU just cherry picking crimes committed by Muslims calling them terrorist attacks????!!! Shame on you...

Patek. Calm down.

Breath deeply.

I am not blaming it on Bush. You have twitchy knees and I am not sure what you think I'm saying.

My position has been pretty well consistent in this regard - I do not blame Bush or Obama for any of the the terrorist attacks.

I think both presidents did/are doing their best to keep a fine balance between security and freedom, and that is not an easy line to walk. For example some of the changes to the "no fly" listings occurred under the Bush administration because becuase they were to bulky, cumbersome and contained the names of or similar to many innocent people. After the Christmas incident it is being revisited again.

My listing of terrorist attacks was in response to Mike's fraudulent claim: As I said for 7 years we were free of them within the US, and we have 3 so far under Obama.

The Patriot Act was signed into law October 26, 2001.

An additional edit: re-read my list. You'll find it contains acts by non-muslims.

 

[Coyote]

We used water boarding on 3 people. Supposedly we received some valuable information from them that probably saved American lives. At the time it was sanctioned by the Government, now it isn't. I don't know about this former agent and why he would lie. Obviously we cannot believe anything he says now.

I believe that we were justified in the use of enhanced measures, and I believe they were only used when it was thought that lives could be saved.

Pay attention folks. This is the problem with America. Whatever we do it is "necessary" regardless if it is torture or killing innocent civilians. Look how he also claimed we waterboarded only 3 people. How does he know that? Did the press friendly Cheney administration openly share these claims and back them up with facts? Or did he invent that number to serve his only Master? Furthermore, with the secret prisons we operate around the globe, how can Americans know what is being done in our name?

This.

 

[CMike]

John Rizzo was present during the interrogations?

Perhaps. It was his agency. He summed up what happened in the memo. He is accountable for what he wrote.

You expect each CIA interrogator to write a separate memo to the justice department?

That is a lot difference than when the left wing rag the NYT says blah blah blah, according to unnamed sources.

But you don't know if he was there. Therefore his word has no more relevance than the FBI. According to your logic.

Incorrect. The CIA was the agency doing the interrogations. John Rizzo specified what they found. John Rizzo was speaking on behalf of the CIA.

The FBI person was not speaking on behalf of the FBI. He was speaking only for himself.

Also, the FBI was not involved in these interrogations, the CIA was.

Therefore, the CIA memo of the general counsel of the CIA, has a lot of weight. The opinion of some lone FBI person who had no connection to the interrogation has none.

 

[CMike]

We used water boarding on 3 people. Supposedly we received some valuable information from them that probably saved American lives. At the time it was sanctioned by the Government, now it isn't. I don't know about this former agent and why he would lie. Obviously we cannot believe anything he says now.

I believe that we were justified in the use of enhanced measures, and I believe they were only used when it was thought that lives could be saved.

Pay attention folks. This is the problem with America. Whatever we do it is "necessary" regardless if it is torture or killing innocent civilians. Look how he also claimed we waterboarded only 3 people. How does he know that? Did the press friendly Cheney administration openly share these claims and back them up with facts? Or did he invent that number to serve his only Master? Furthermore, with the secret prisons we operate around the globe, how can Americans know what is being done in our name?

This.

What secret prisons we run around the globe?

 

[CMike]

We used water boarding on 3 people. Supposedly we received some valuable information from them that probably saved American lives. At the time it was sanctioned by the Government, now it isn't. I don't know about this former agent and why he would lie. Obviously we cannot believe anything he says now.

I believe that we were justified in the use of enhanced measures, and I believe they were only used when it was thought that lives could be saved.

Pay attention folks. This is the problem with America. Whatever we do it is "necessary" regardless if it is torture or killing innocent civilians. Look how he also claimed we waterboarded only 3 people. How does he know that? Did the press friendly Cheney administration openly share these claims and back them up with facts? Or did he invent that number to serve his only Master? Furthermore, with the secret prisons we operate around the globe, how can Americans know what is being done in our name?

According to the link that Coyote provided from her let wing blog, the CIA Inspector General confirmed that waterboarding was done very sparingly.

What secret prisons?

I am sorry but the CIA is not going to reveal all it's methods so the enemy can benefit. Well, actually who knows under Obama, they may.

 

[CurveLight]

Pay attention folks. This is the problem with America. Whatever we do it is "necessary" regardless if it is torture or killing innocent civilians. Look how he also claimed we waterboarded only 3 people. How does he know that? Did the press friendly Cheney administration openly share these claims and back them up with facts? Or did he invent that number to serve his only Master? Furthermore, with the secret prisons we operate around the globe, how can Americans know what is being done in our name?

This.

What secret prisons we run around the globe?

Why is it the strongest supporters of the Bush bullshit are frequently the least informed? The info is less than four years old so I understand. Your camp needs about an 800 year learning curve.
Bush acknowledges secret prisons - Security- msnbc.com