Whom to Spend On: Geniuses or Retards?

[Amanda]

I have no clue what learning disabilities you have, feel free to elaborate.

I'm going to pass on that 1, thanks. Too many people here would just throw it back at me and I'm not really interested in hearing their oh so clever insults.

What I"m asking you is . . . where do you draw the line in educating special needs people? Age 8? 12? 18? What criteria do you use to stop educating them?

I haven't said anything about not having special education, so it's weird to me that you're trying to make it seem as though I have. Since it's not my argument, I'm not going to answer, but I will say I think the idea that we spend more and get less for them should be examined. I think we should spend at least as much on the gifted to help them to go even higher. I think we benefit more as a society if we have more really smart people finding answers to hard problems than we do by giving retarded people do-nothing jobs like examining my ticket stub and telling me theater 9 is to the left when there's a huge sign that says 1-14 over the hallway to the left.

You said you were (paraphrasing here) 'puzzled at all the retarded people you see working'. Puzzled? Do you not think they deserve to work or shouldn't be given the chance?

No, I'm puzzled because I know of a lot of people that need jobs and aren't getting a subsidy from the state. I've told the sandwich story a number of times now. I think a non-retarded person would not have been digging around in their hair while preparing food, at least not in full view of the customer. I'm guessing that businesses get a tax incentive to hire them, so in a sense they cost less to have on staff. Or do they?

When I pay for goods or services I want the best I can get for my money. I will not be returning to that Quiznos restaurant because I don't want to have to watch like a hawk to make sure my sandwich isn't tainted. I cross businesses off my list whenever I see that I'm not getting the best value for my money. If I found out McDonalds was mixing in sawdust with the meat I'd stop buying burgers there. Do I insult trees when I make this decision?

Do you think that mentally developmentally challenged people are retarded?

I'm sorry I don't know what that PC speak translates into today. I think doctors that make the diagnoses know what is what and if they say someone is, they probably are, if they say they aren't, they probably aren't.

Now I'm bored with the "Amanda hates the retarded" witch hunt, I haven't said a disparaging word about them. I'm guilty of using a term that is apparently no longer in vogue. Sue me.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I have no clue what learning disabilities you have, feel free to elaborate.

I'm going to pass on that 1, thanks. Too many people here would just throw it back at me and I'm not really interested in hearing their oh so clever insults.

What I"m asking you is . . . where do you draw the line in educating special needs people? Age 8? 12? 18? What criteria do you use to stop educating them?

I haven't said anything about not having special education, so it's weird to me that you're trying to make it seem as though I have. Since it's not my argument, I'm not going to answer, but I will say I think the idea that we spend more and get less for them should be examined. I think we should spend at least as much on the gifted to help them to go even higher. I think we benefit more as a society if we have more really smart people finding answers to hard problems than we do by giving retarded people do-nothing jobs like examining my ticket stub and telling me theater 9 is to the left when there's a huge sign that says 1-14 over the hallway to the left.

I'm puzzled because I know of a lot of people that need jobs and aren't getting a subsidy from the state. I've told the sandwich story a number of times now. I think a non-retarded person would not have been digging around in their hair while preparing food, at least not in full view of the customer.

If these 'retarded' people are living the high life on government subsidies and, therefore, you seem to think they shouldn't be taking jobs from 'normal people', I assumed you'd not want to waste money on educating them. I mean, why bother right? After all, a 'normal' person can do their job better, faster. You assume that these folks only get 'do nothing jobs'. You're wrong. The last bolded . . . why bother trying to foster any type of independence in these folks, right? After all they've got uncle.

When I pay for goods or services I want the best I can get for my money. I will not be returning to that Quiznos restaurant because I don't want to have to watch like a hawk to make sure my sandwich isn't tainted. I cross businesses off my list whenever I see that I'm not getting the best value for my money. If I found out McDonalds was mixing in sawdust with the meat I'd stop buying burgers there. Do I insult trees when I make this decision?

So if a store employs a 'retarded person' and they're slow you stop patronizing that store because hell, you'll just find a store that hires 'normal' people who are, you know, better? As long as you get yours, eh? Empathy, you lack it.

I'd have told the manager what happened with the server and his hair. Perhaps he is in the wrong job . . . or perhaps he just needed some 'education'. And if you think 'normal' servers don't ever do anything gross w/regards to your food . . .

Do you think that mentally developmentally challenged people are retarded?

I'm sorry I don't know what that PC speak translates into today. I think doctors that make the diagnoses know what is what and if they say someone is, they probably are, if they say they aren't, they probably aren't.

Now I'm bored with the "Amanda hates the retarded" witch hunt, I haven't said a disparaging word about them. I'm guilty of using a term that is apparently no longer in vogue. Sue me.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not using some PC shit language; I asked you a simple question. Do you think that mentally/developmentally challenged people are retarded? The answer is no. Are some? Yes. Are all? No. By your use of the term 'retarded' you certainly come across as just lumping all these people together. You are so far off base . . . . do some homework.

You haven't said a disparaging word about them? Really?

I've noticed quite a few retarded people out in the work force lately and it's kinda puzzling to me. In the instances I've observed they don't do as good a job as non-retarded people would have (and in 1 case I sent my food back because I witnessed it being improperly handled) and there are plenty of non-retarded people that could probably really use those jobs.

I'm not saying march them off to the ovens and I don't think WJ is either. I think there's an important point here about getting the best return on our investment.

And the developmentally challenged don't because they get some money from uncle? Yeah, why bother letting them have jobs and giving them the opportunity to get out of the system. And how mighty of you to not want to 'march them off to the ovens'.

To your point... I didn't say they shouldn't have jobs. I said I thought non-retarded people would do the same jobs better. I also think that non-retarded people could probably use the jobs more because most probably aren't getting subsidized by the state because they're disabled.

Again, let's not give the challenged an opportunity to get out of they system.

Was it 1 of those big Foster's beers?

C'mon D, why play coy? You know what WJ's stance is, why not go for it and answer with what you believe in?

As for me, I see where WJ is coming from. I don't want retarded people to have a substandard quality of life, but shouldn't we be spending at least as much on the gifted as the retarded?

I've noticed quite a few retarded people out in the work force lately and it's kinda puzzling to me. In the instances I've observed they don't do as good a job as non-retarded people would have (and in 1 case I sent my food back because I witnessed it being improperly handled) and there are plenty of non-retarded people that could probably really use those jobs.

I'm not saying march them off to the ovens and I don't think WJ is either. I think there's an important point here about getting the best return on our investment.

For the record, they don't like being called "retarded."

For the record, I don't care. When you can post a link from some official source that says that term isn't valid I'll consider using a different 1, but I currently don't know a different 1.

All this blather about whether it's the right term or not is a dodge. And it's a boring 1 at that. The topic isn't what should we call retarded people, it's who should we spend more money on.

But you didn't say anything 'disparaging' about them.

It's not being just "PC". It's called having respect for others, which you seem to be lacking in. Again, another prime example of how some people see our generation as a whole.

You can go ahead and not use "nicey nice" terms but don't go crying if someone calls you out when you call them something offensive.

Amanda, Dogbert is spot on with his post. Your inability of being able to 'put yourself in the other guys shoes' is obvious. Your use of the word retarded lumps many into a category where they simply don't belong. Yeah, it actually does make a difference to people. . . . not that I'd expect you to understand that because hell, you don't care.

 

[Amanda]

If these 'retarded' people are living the high life on government subsidies

Never said that. Try again.

and, therefore, you seem to think they shouldn't be taking jobs from 'normal people',

Never said that either.

I assumed you'd not want to waste money on educating them.

Assume away, it's working great for you so far.

I mean, why bother right?

Never said that.

After all, a 'normal' person can do their job better, faster.

Sounds about right. Or are you saying there's something a retarded person can do better than someone who isn't retarded?

You assume that these folks only get 'do nothing jobs'. You're wrong.

Never said that. I think if you follow my sandwich story you'll see I referenced 1 that had a job preparing food.

The last bolded . . . why bother trying to foster any type of independence in these folks, right? After all they've got uncle.

Never said that either. You're sure having to make up a lot of shit to try to make your point.

So if a store employs a 'retarded person' and they're slow you stop patronizing that store because hell, you'll just find a store that hires 'normal' people who are, you know, better?

Didn't say that. I'm really starting to see a pattern here.

As long as you get yours, eh? Empathy, you lack it.

When I'm paying for a product or service I do seek the best value. What kind of asshole does that make me?

I'd have told the manager what happened with the server and his hair.

I did, it was part of getting my sandwich remade. he apologized profusely, but he didn't pull the guy off the sandwich line. So, thus my decision to not return.

Perhaps he is in the wrong job . . . or perhaps he just needed some 'education'. And if you think 'normal' servers don't ever do anything gross w/regards to your food . . .

Have you ever been to a Quiznos? The food prep takes place right in front of you.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not using some PC shit language; I asked you a simple question. Do you think that mentally/developmentally challenged people are retarded? The answer is no. Are some? Yes. Are all? No.

I'm not going to play semantical games. If you want to use a term other than retarded then please be my guest. I'm not a mental health worker and I don't give a good God damn what terminology is in vogue this week. I'm pretty sure anyone that doesn't want to play semantical games knows what I mean when I refer to the retarded. If it makes you feel better to use other terms then please use them. I don't know other terms and it isn't important to me in the context of the OP, which is really all I'm interested in.

By your use of the term 'retarded' you certainly come across as just lumping all these people together.

Like I said, if people want to be offended they will be offended and I can't help that.

You are so far off base . . . . do some homework.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I didn't care. It's all semantical hair splitting. You can call something whatever you want, it doesn't change what it is, and that's what we're talking about - what it is, not what to call it.

You haven't said a disparaging word about them? Really?

Yea, really.

And the developmentally challenged don't because they get some money from uncle?

I never said they didn't deserve to have jobs. My contention is that people with a family to support should have jobs before others that are getting subsidized.

Yeah, why bother letting them have jobs and giving them the opportunity to get out of the system.

Never said that. This is beyond boring.

And how mighty of you to not want to 'march them off to the ovens'.

Don't let a sense of humor get in your way of some good old righteous indignation.

Again, let's not give the challenged an opportunity to get out of they system.

Never said that.

But you didn't say anything 'disparaging' about them.

Nope, sure didn't. Pretty much all I said was we should spend at least the safe amount on the gifted. If that's a jab in your book, I suggest getting another book.

Amanda, Dogbert is spot on with his post.

Dog's post wasn't on topic so I didn't give it much thought.

Your inability of being able to 'put yourself in the other guys shoes' is obvious.

You're talking out of your ass. You have no fucking idea what I've been through or what I'm capable of doing. I don't recall you sitting there holding my hand when a councilor told my Mother I was functionally retarded or some such shit when I was 12 because I couldn't read and didn't show any interest in learning. I don't recall you standing up and saying "hey just a minute here" when I was called an idiot by my high school principal. I could go on and fucking on. I don't have to try to imagine what it's like for everyone to thing I'm stupid as a rock, it's all I ever heard growing up. So fuck you and your lame ass judgements.

Your use of the word retarded lumps many into a category where they simply don't belong.

When the topic is what should we call (whatever PC term you want to use) people, then I'll sit back and listen and take it all in. BUT THAT"S NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD SO I DON"T FUCKING CARE.

Yeah, it actually does make a difference to people. . . . not that I'd expect you to understand that because hell, you don't care.

I'll say the same thing to you I've said to everyone else, if it's so fucking important to you start a thread about it. The semantics of what to call people is NOT the subject of this thread.

 

[chanel]

Clarification is needed. The word "retarded" is not even used in schools any more. Yes there are people with low IQ, Down's Syndrome, Fetal Alcohol, etc., but social skills are now used to measure functioning in addition to IQ. I have had students with extremely low intelligence scores who are kind and conscientious and "trainable". Some of them were very attractive too, which I often thought might hurt them in the future. When a person doesn't look "retarded", people have less patience when it comes to explaining things.

Mental retardation affects about 1 - 3% of the population. There are many causes of mental retardation, but doctors find a specific reason in only 25% of cases.

In our district, 25% of the population is classified "special education". Very few of them are "mentally retarded". If you want to see where your money goes, ask your Bd of Ed about all the "alternative programs" for the drug addicted anti-social emotionally disturbed. It's not the "retarded" that eating up those education dollars. It's a whole lot of future felons.

 

[jillian]

Funny, I thought the word *retarded* was a "description" being given for incapable people....i don't think *amanda* intended it to refer to developmentally disabled people at all... I figure *she* is just having fun trolling now.

*shrug*

 

[Amanda]

Funny, I thought the word *retarded* was a "description" being given for incapable people....i don't think *amanda* intended it to refer to developmentally disabled people at all... I figure *she* is just having fun trolling now.

*shrug*

No more that you *Jillian*.

 

[jillian]

Ok dear...whatever you say.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Fail Amanda. Every post you answered with 'I never said that'? Semantics, as it was implied with your responses. Subtly, but there.

I'm not going to play semantical games.

Yeah, right. btw, 'semantical' isn't a word. (That's for busting on Luissa's grammar).

If you want to use a term other than retarded then please be my guest. I'm not a mental health worker and I don't give a good God damn what terminology is in vogue this week. I'm pretty sure anyone that doesn't want to play semantical games knows what I mean when I refer to the retarded. If it makes you feel better to use other terms then please use them. I don't know other terms and it isn't important to me in the context of the OP, which is really all I'm interested in.

Seeing as this was your response, you obviously didn't understand my post.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom-boing
Your use of the word retarded lumps many into a category where they simply don't belong.

When the topic is what should we call (whatever PC term you want to use) people, then I'll sit back and listen and take it all in. BUT THAT"S NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD SO I DON"T FUCKING CARE.

Go back and read my post, above. PC has nothing to do with it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom-boing
Your inability of being able to 'put yourself in the other guys shoes' is obvious.

You're talking out of your ass. You have no fucking idea what I've been through or what I'm capable of doing. I don't recall you sitting there holding my hand when a councilor told my Mother I was functionally retarded or some such shit when I was 12 because I couldn't read and didn't show any interest in learning. I don't recall you standing up and saying "hey just a minute here" when I was called an idiot by my high school principal. I could go on and fucking on. I don't have to try to imagine what it's like for everyone to thing I'm stupid as a rock, it's all I ever heard growing up. So fuck you and your lame ass judgements.

You don't seemed to have learned the lesson of how to put yourself in the other guys shoes (you know, those retarded ones) even after this experience.

Fuck you too, Amanda.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Funny, I thought the word *retarded* was a "description" being given for incapable people....i don't think *amanda* intended it to refer to developmentally disabled people at all... I figure *she* is just having fun trolling now.

*shrug*

I took her use of the word 'retarded' to mean all mentally retarded AND delayed people, rather than just those people whose IQ is below 70. There are many, many mentally disabled people who do not fit the category of 'retarded', my son is one of them. I tried to point this out to Amanda several times but she just cries 'I don't care about PC'. Again, PC has nothing to do with it. To call all delayed people 'retarded' is to lump many into a category where they simply do not belong.

mental retardation: a developmental disorder characterized by a subnormal ability to learn and a substantially low IQ.

 

[Amanda]

Funny, I thought the word *retarded* was a "description" being given for incapable people....i don't think *amanda* intended it to refer to developmentally disabled people at all... I figure *she* is just having fun trolling now.

*shrug*

I took her use of the word 'retarded' to mean all mentally retarded AND delayed people, rather than just those people whose IQ is below 70. There are many, many mentally disabled people who do not fit the category of 'retarded', my son is one of them.

Because when you really, REALLY want to be offended that's how you do it. You take what was never said and you decide that's what was meant. Thanks for owning up, at least now I know why you were trying to trick me into making that kind of statement.

 

[Anguille]

If I found out McDonalds was mixing in sawdust with the meat I'd stop buying burgers there.

If only sawdust was the only thing to be concerned about with McDonald's meat.

 

[Amanda]

If I found out McDonalds was mixing in sawdust with the meat I'd stop buying burgers there.

If only sawdust was the only thing to be concerned about with McDonald's meat.

But you didn't answer the question: Would I be offending trees?

 

[Anguille]

If I found out McDonalds was mixing in sawdust with the meat I'd stop buying burgers there.

If only sawdust was the only thing to be concerned about with McDonald's meat.

But you didn't answer the question: Would I be offending trees?

LOL! No, you "wood" not. But not to worry anyhow. Trees are thick skinned.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Funny, I thought the word *retarded* was a "description" being given for incapable people....i don't think *amanda* intended it to refer to developmentally disabled people at all... I figure *she* is just having fun trolling now.

*shrug*

I took her use of the word 'retarded' to mean all mentally retarded AND delayed people, rather than just those people whose IQ is below 70. There are many, many mentally disabled people who do not fit the category of 'retarded', my son is one of them.

Because when you really, REALLY want to be offended that's how you do it. You take what was never said and you decide that's what was meant. Thanks for owning up, at least now I know why you were trying to trick me into making that kind of statement.

I wasn't trying to trick you; that's how I read your intention of the word 'retarded'. Did I misinterpret it? I tried pointing it out to you several times but you just cried 'PC shit' and left it at that. Stop being so defensive.

When you use the word 'retarded', specifically who are you talking about?

1. Retarded people (whose IQ are below 70; see the definition for mental retardation I gave)

OR

2. Retarded people as well as the stupid, the obtuse, the incompetent in some way (that would include learning disabled and any other mentally challenged person).

The second definition is who William Joyce was referring to when he called them 'retards'. Since you repeatedly refused to answer any question that wasn't in the OP, I read your 'retarded' word as the definition of the OP's 'retard'. They don't mean the same thing.

 

[ScottBernard]

I am a special education teacher and believe that all children deserve a good education. But with that said, sped has become a dumping ground for criminals and troublemakers. It is getting increasingly difficult to teach the kids with real learning disabilities in the same room with students diagnosed with "oppositional/defiance disorder". Spending billions on educating the uneducable (not the "retarded as you call them") is indeed a waste of money. But teaching slower children who are desperate to learn and fit in, is worth every dime.

chanel, bless your heart. I can imagine that is very gratifying work; also very hard. I consider the "mentally retarded" people born without deadly ambition or malice in their heart.
There is a guy at my work and he appears to have Downs Syndrome. He is the custodian but is the nicest guy. Every Christmas he hands out a candycane to everyone and wishes a happy Christmas. I saw him thumbing through some pictures one day and saw that it was from a vintage car show. Pretty cool.
Yes, some youngsters need a firmer hand. The problem tends to be that some teachers simply do not know how to handle these jokers. Which makes them act out even more. The ones who do know have long retired and left the new crop of teachers to fumble around on their own. And God only knows how much untold damage they may do.
Like I've said, "braindead education system".

 

[Charles Stucker]

In our district, 25% of the population is classified "special education". Very few of them are "mentally retarded". If you want to see where your money goes, ask your Bd of Ed about all the "alternative programs" for the drug addicted anti-social emotionally disturbed. It's not the "retarded" that eating up those education dollars. It's a whole lot of future felons.

School is supposed to be cheaper than prison, but some students are incorrigible.
Those students should be removed and sent to a remedial place where antisocial behavior is not tolerated. Perhaps then they would not be a threat to honest people when they matriculated.
Again to those who think too much is spent on the gifted - That is demonstrably untrue. Gifted generally get the same spent on them as average. Only the below average and the troublemakers get extra spent on them.

For the self proclaimed "Genius" who posted earlier - right, you're so smart that you have to post how smart you are. What a retard.

 

[manifold]

Across the nation, we spend billions on retards through "special education".

We barely put a dime on the really smart, or "gifted" students.

Is this is a good policy?

Have we got to a point where we fetishize and worship the lesser, while denigrating the better? A dictatorship of the lowest common denominator?

No. It's a retarded policy and does not serve the best interests of society at large.

Why do I say this? Because as I've said before, you can throw a cat out of a second story window a hundred times and it will still never learn how to fly. So, it's more than retarded to throw it out a hundred more times in the hopes that it will. I'm not saying we shouldn't support the lowest on the intellectual spectrum, but we most certainly shouldn't be fooling ourselves about their potential and wasting gobs of money in the process.

 

[sitarro]

I've been enjoying Dragon Joose lately. It's like malt liquor and an energy drink that tastes like grape soda. Mmmmm. I don't know why someone didn't think of this sooner.

Wow, I wonder what race that stuff is targeting, I know several guys I work with that won't drink anything but "purple drank".......... not commenting on you A, just making an observation. Colt 45 had a specific demographic too just as KOOL cigarettes.

 

[manifold]

I've been enjoying Dragon Joose lately. It's like malt liquor and an energy drink that tastes like grape soda. Mmmmm. I don't know why someone didn't think of this sooner.

Wow, I wonder what race that stuff is targeting, I know several guys I work with that won't drink anything but "purple drank".......... not commenting on you A, just making an observation. Colt 45 had a specific demographic too just as KOOL cigarettes.

And don't forget about Soul Glo.

 

[Charles Stucker]

Wow, I wonder what race that stuff is targeting, I know several guys I work with that won't drink anything but "purple drank"..

Must be targeting Irish, like "Radar" from Mash and his Grape Nehi.