Who is responsible for YOU?

[Peejay]

You are still making success a measure of financial status. Again this is failing to give what is successful due respect. Food is a need, shelter is a right (you don't NEED it to survive),

And here is where you part with reality.

Nice talking with you.

 

[Yukon]

"...As I said, I am successful, and I only average about 700 a month, or 8,400 a year, but I am my own boss, I control my own life, and that is success."

Im not at all surprised that you earn so little. You should apply for food stamps and welfare health care as you probably qualify. It does sadden me though to know that impoverished people still exist in your great country.

By the way how on earth do you afford the internet and a computer on $700 a month ?

 

[editec]

.

And so long as people continue to be able to move upwards, that's all that matters.

It's when you start smacking them down and not allowing them to move at all that you get into trouble.

No. Not at all. People love to talk about who earned what and who didn't. It's not all about that. Some people are just in a better position. That's just the way it is. The playing field is not level. I'm not advocating that it should or could ever be leveled but failure to acknowledge the fact is ignorant. Two men that offer the exact same effort and intelligence do not end up in the same place. There are a ton of factors from pure luck, to where you started from that play in. Attempting to reduce it to any kind of effort = success formula is hog wash.

It is equally hogwash to believe effort has little or nothing to do with it.

This is where I tell you you are debating against a straw man

Nobody has EVER said that effort has little or nothing to do with it, and you know it.

Obviously for the scions who had to exert no effort since their to the manor born, that is true, but for the vast majority of people who make it of course, effort plays it part in their fortune.

What you apparently are afraid to acknowledge is that even being ABLE to work hard to make it took a bit of good luck and certaintly a miniumum of very bad luck.

Why are you afraid to admit something so very obvious, Bern?

I'll tell you why...because then one can't blame the victims at every turn as though every person who isn't investing for a living is a loser.

And my oh my, how some people on this board, just love to play that childish game, eh?

 

[AllieBaba]

You live in a fantasy world, and I suspect it's because you are so removed from the real world yourself that you just don't know what life is about.

Your suspicions would be wrong. I am pretty well immersed in a real world. As for the meaning of life, do tell.

For one thing, being adopted usually is equated with success, not failure. I haven't heard of many "poor dirt farmers" existing at this point, much less that imaginary population adopting (and failing in the raising of) orphan children.

My Dad was adopted by these poor dirt farmers, in 1947. They didn't exactly fail on purpose, they both died before he was an adult. My mom was actually born to poor dirt farmers. Her dad died when she was barely old enough to remember. I am a couple generations away from that on both sides. I can't help but wonder where you are from.

My family, the family of my best friend and I can't even begin to count how many of those I am aquainted with come from very, VERY humble roots. Our juvenile director's stepfather was offed in a prison fight. My father was an alcoholic, and we were about as poor as poor gets. My best friend didn't have a father in the picture at all, was one of 6 kids, and her mother worked as a cook. We all are successful, well adjusted folks, as is my sister and my brothers, and our kids.

Excellent.

I bought into the bs you're spewing for about 20 years, then realized, hey, my sister never bought into it...and she's sitting in a mansion on the hill. So I decided screw this and started setting goals..and guess what? Within a year I had achieved what I've wanted for that entire 20 year span, including location.

When people realize they can do it, they DO do it. It's idiots like yourself constantly telling them they can't pull themselves up that mires them down.

So, you let your circumstances hold you back for 20 years, yet you fail to acknowledge that it happens. Interesting.

I absolutely don't say that people can't pull themselves up. Fact is, you MUST pull yourself from circumstances. But you seem to disregard what sooooo many people work sooooo hard for, to give their kids a head start on life. You seem to think that doesn't count for much.

As I said, poor dirt farmer adoptive families are few and far between TODAY. Did you miss that?

My circumstances didn't hold me back, that is the point. I was buying the crap that you're shoveling today. That's what held me back. Hearing every day that I couldn't succeed, and shouldn't bother trying.

I think it counts for a lot to work hard to give your kids a head start on life. Hence my examples which included KIDS.

Carry on.

 

[Bern80]

This is where I tell you you are debating against a straw man

Nobody has EVER said that effort has little or nothing to do with it, and you know it.

Then consider this your opportunity to specifically state to what extent effort plays a role in people outcomes. Because to this point I believe you have been quite clear that between the two variables of effort or fate that you believe fate plays the larger role.

What you apparently are afraid to acknowledge is that even being ABLE to work hard to make it took a bit of good luck and certaintly a miniumum of very bad luck.

Why are you afraid to admit something so very obvious, Bern?

I'm fairly certain I already have admitted to that. Why are YOU so afraid to be honest? Of course I understand that initial circumstances for people. And that starting points for some are better than those for others. I can't change my starting point. But i firmly believe my future is not predestined. Even if I was born into millions of dollars with a trust fund, that lifestyle will not remain without effort on my part. If i was born dirt poor I will most likely die that way unless I do something about it. No government program, no level of wealth redistribution is going to make me wealthy without me and my efforts playing an extremely significant role in becoming so. I can't change that I have parents that instilled me with certain values, whether I retain them requires some objective analysis on my part. there is nothing I could have done to avoid having cancer, the extent to which I allow it effects to limit me is my choice. I can't change that have good friends that have helped me get jobs, it is up to me whether i keep that job. I can't change where I started, but where I end up is going to be mostly determined by me and the choices I make.

I'll tell you why...because then one can't blame the victims at every turn as though every person who isn't investing for a living is a loser.

Since we are addressing fears, perhaps you can tell me why YOU are so afraid to take a hard, objective look at your fellow man and see the choices they have made that got them where they are. Take a hard look at all these people you bemoan and tell me that you can honestly say their ownership in their plight is minimal at best? Look around at your coworkers and yourself and tell me that all or even over half of them have reached the pinacle of their potential.

 

[Peejay]

As I said, poor dirt farmer adoptive families are few and far between TODAY. Did you miss that?

Hmmm.....how many farmers live in poverty today ? Do you know ? I do. Do you know the first thing about farmers adopting kids and why ? You are speaking from ignorance.

My circumstances didn't hold me back, that is the point. I was buying the crap that you're shoveling today. That's what held me back. Hearing every day that I couldn't succeed, and shouldn't bother trying.

Let me see if I understand this. You consider your circumstances as poor, from the start. You account for 20 years of being held back because someone, somewhere convinced you that your circumstances prohibited success. But you don't attribute any of this to the circumstances themselves, just the people who reminded you of them. But if those circumstances hadn't existed, there wouldn't be anything like that to remind you of, now would there ? That stigma comes along with circumstance, that is part of the circumstance and you get to deal with it if that's what you got. Took you 20 years to figure it out. And you still haven't finished.

If your circumstances had been better, would those people have held you down anyway ? If you had people contributing to your confidence and self esteem, think you might have believed in yourself a little earlier ? Maybe used those 20 years ?

I think it counts for a lot to work hard to give your kids a head start on life. Hence my examples which included KIDS.

So then, you obviously agree that kids given a head start is an advantage ? Right ? You want to give your kids a leg up, right ?

You understand that advantage does not exist unless there is someone in a position of disadvantage ?

 

[KittenKoder]

Peejay ... success is getting better than you start out, those who have "advantages" actually rarely succeed because they don't try as hard, so rarely do they rise above where they are, that's not success at all, and nothing to be proud of. Many even wind up failing more than the poor, simply because they don't have to fight to get anywhere, so they become complacent and just ... well ... fail, big time or go nowhere.

 

[Peejay]

those who have "advantages" actually rarely succeed because they don't try as hard....

Sure. You have some sort of evidence about this rare occurance of advantages paying off, I suppose ?

 

[KittenKoder]

those who have "advantages" actually rarely succeed because they don't try as hard....

Sure. You have some sort of evidence about this rare occurance of advantages paying off, I suppose ?

Look at the stories of the most successful people ...

Gates, started with nothing but an idea.

Chef Gordan ... his family was broke, father nowhere to be found.

etc.

Then some of the biggest failures ....

Kennedy kids ...

Royal family of England ...

 

[Peejay]

those who have "advantages" actually rarely succeed because they don't try as hard....

Sure. You have some sort of evidence about this rare occurance of advantages paying off, I suppose ?

Look at the stories of the most successful people ...

Gates, started with nothing but an idea.

Chef Gordan ... his family was broke, father nowhere to be found.

etc.

Then some of the biggest failures ....

Kennedy kids ...

Royal family of England ...

I'm not asking for individual examples.

I am asking you to redefine the words "advantage" and "disadvantage", as I seem to have them mixed up, according to your definition of the words. You are saying that the widely accepted and understood meaning of being "advantaged" is actually a "disadvantage" and vice versa. Perhaps you can send me a map to upside down world where being in a position of percieved advantage more often than not, leads to a disadvantage. This being the case, the words actually trade meaning. In this place we should hope to be born in a dumpster, clinging to life, adopted by heroin addicts, raped as children, discriminated against, homeless and left for dead. That's the easy way to success, right ? And heaven forbid we are born to a warm, healthy home, educated, fed regular meals and kept from frost bite and head lice. To have such luxuries surely leads to failure in all but the rarest of occasions.

Neat, happy little world you must live in.

 

[CaféAuLait]

Re:Who is responsible for YOU?

Me, myself and I.

 

[Neser Boha]

Wow, what a discussion!

My two cents can be summarized in one sentence: I'm happy here in Sweden and I love the fact that their government gives two shits about its people. Mmm, sweetness.

 

[DiamondDave]

Wow, what a discussion!

My two cents can be summarized in one sentence: I'm happy here in Sweden and I love the fact that their government gives two shits about its people. Mmm, sweetness.

Ahhhhh... the "feely" response...

Oh... I want the government to CARE about me...

Well guess what bozo... the government is not a human being... it is an organizational system with the purpose of national protection, rights definition and protection, and law enforcement... it cannot care or "give two shits"

You are the one who is supposed to "give two shits"... just as you are the one ultimately responsible for putting food in your stomach, putting a roof over your head, deciding to treat your broken arm or not, or decide whether to be on the all butter diet and never see a doctor... and you are responsible for any expenses in doing said things

 

[Neser Boha]

Wow, what a discussion!

My two cents can be summarized in one sentence: I'm happy here in Sweden and I love the fact that their government gives two shits about its people. Mmm, sweetness.

Ahhhhh... the "feely" response...

Oh... I want the government to CARE about me...

Well guess what bozo... the government is not a human being... it is an organizational system with the purpose of national protection, rights definition and protection, and law enforcement... it cannot care or "give two shits"

You are the one who is supposed to "give two shits"... just as you are the one ultimately responsible for putting food in your stomach, putting a roof over your head, deciding to treat your broken arm or not, or decide whether to be on the all butter diet and never see a doctor... and you are responsible for any expenses in doing said things

Wow, we're in a bad mood today, aren't we! Take it easy, life's too short to get so upset about nothing ...

And you are right, government is an institutional construct of the society (I loooove ze grid-group theory, btw and I'm not an institutionalist, rather a 'culturalist'). Obviously, it is the Swedish society THAT gives 'two shits' about its members. How Christian of them, don't you think?

Please, next time - be so kind and do not patronize me and call me names. It's not nice, you know? Bad Davey!

 

[DiamondDave]

Wow, what a discussion!

My two cents can be summarized in one sentence: I'm happy here in Sweden and I love the fact that their government gives two shits about its people. Mmm, sweetness.

Ahhhhh... the "feely" response...

Oh... I want the government to CARE about me...

Well guess what bozo... the government is not a human being... it is an organizational system with the purpose of national protection, rights definition and protection, and law enforcement... it cannot care or "give two shits"

You are the one who is supposed to "give two shits"... just as you are the one ultimately responsible for putting food in your stomach, putting a roof over your head, deciding to treat your broken arm or not, or decide whether to be on the all butter diet and never see a doctor... and you are responsible for any expenses in doing said things

Wow, we're in a bad mood today, aren't we! Take it easy, life's too short to get so upset about nothing ...

And you are right, government is an institutional construct of the society (I loooove ze grid-group theory, btw and I'm not an institutionalist, rather a 'culturalist'). Obviously, it is the Swedish society THAT gives 'two shits' about its members. How Christian of them, don't you think?

Please, next time - be so kind and do not patronize me and call me names. It's not nice, you know? Bad Davey!

Life ain't about nice... life is full of slaps in the face and doses of reality

Entitlements at the expense of others does not mean that the society "gives two shits" about it's people... entitlements and the control systems that must be in place to operate them is about one thing and one thing only.. control and the abolition of personal freedoms and responsibility....

You may think that a mom that still takes care of every last thing for her 30 year old son living in her basement is "giving two shits"... .in actuality it is truly control and it is pitiful... truly "giving two shits" would be allowing people to be responsible for themselves

 

[editec]

This is where I tell you you are debating against a straw man

Nobody has EVER said that effort has little or nothing to do with it, and you know it.

Then consider this your opportunity to specifically state to what extent effort plays a role in people outcomes. Because to this point I believe you have been quite clear that between the two variables of effort or fate that you believe fate plays the larger role.

Nobody can tell us what the formula, is Bernie. Don't be absurd.

Such questions do not have a metric answer. Seeking to quantify then is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

Who can say what effect fate can have on any person, and who can say how much effect working hard played in their success or failure?

The notion that one can quantify those answers is simply goofy.

What you apparently are afraid to acknowledge is that even being ABLE to work hard to make it took a bit of good luck and certaintly a miniumum of very bad luck.

Why are you afraid to admit something so very obvious, Bern?

I'm fairly certain I already have admitted to that.

And yet you still think that one can quantify a FORMULA for how fate and ones efforts interplay to achive success or failure?!?

Your demand for that formula suggests that you still don't get it. Hence you continued use of words like "mostly" to describe how your hard work determined your personal fate.

Why are YOU so afraid to be honest? Of course I understand that initial circumstances for people.

No you obviously still do not get it, Bern.

It's not just "initial circumstances" it's FATE all along which are combined with the labor of the people.

It isn't like the dice are cast once at birth. Every second of ever day the dice are cast for all of us, amigo. We do what we do, for good or bad, in the maelstrom. We do NOT control the maelstrom, we are but a part of it.

And that starting points for some are better than those for others. I can't change my starting point. But i firmly believe my future is not predestined.

I do not think, nor have I ever suggested that anyone's future is predestined. I do NOT believe in predestination any more than I believe that you or I are the masters of OUR destiny.

Even if I was born into millions of dollars with a trust fund, that lifestyle will not remain without effort on my part.

Oh what sheer egotistical blather.

Nobody can know what their efforts would be had their fates been so significantly different than they were.

What pomposity it requires to imgaine you'd have the indentical ego if you life were completely different.

If i was born dirt poor I will most likely die that way unless I do something about it.

Perhaps. Or perhaps not.

The fact is that we will never know what your fate might have been had your fate not been the one you have right now.

No government program, no level of wealth redistribution is going to make me wealthy without me and my efforts playing an extremely significant role in becoming so.

Effort might or might not play a significant (see there's that rush to quantify which I am complaining about, again) outcome in one's fate.

How much effort does it take to win the megbucks or to neglect to see the bus which runs you over?

I find it difficult to see why you are finding this so hard to understand to be honest, Bern.

I can't change that I have parents that instilled me with certain values, whether I retain them requires some objective analysis on my part.

And are you foolish enough not to understand that those parents were outside your efforts?

there is nothing I could have done to avoid having cancer, the extent to which I allow it effects to limit me is my choice.

Is it? CAn you WILL the effects that life has on you not to effect you? Tell me, what magic are you employing to do that, Bernie?

Do you have a choice when you apply for HC insurance, or is your WILL irrlevant to what the insurance company charges you for your premiums? A small example of my point, but a telling one, nevertheless. Show me how by the strength of your character you are changing the cost of your health care premiums.

I can't change that have good friends that have helped me get jobs, it is up to me whether i keep that job.

It is not up to you whether you keep that job, Bern. You play some part in your keeping it, however.
Choosing to show up and do your job, for example, obviously plays a role you keeping that job, without doubt.

But then too, many is the worker today, who has done that, who will discover they are unemployed by the end of the work day.

ARe they losers who deserved that fate, or merely people just as you and I are?

I can't change where I started, but where I end up is going to be mostly determined by me and the choices I make.

Mostly? there is where you and I must part ways. Neither you nor I can QUANTIFY such factors. We can work hard and we can HOPE that nothing changes that stops us from continuing to do so.

I'll tell you why...because then one can't blame the victims at every turn as though every person who isn't investing for a living is a loser.

Since we are addressing fears, perhaps you can tell me why YOU are so afraid to take a hard, objective look at your fellow man and see the choices they have made that got them where they are.

I look at them all the time. We both do and we BOTH see that people's decisons have consequences

Without DOUBT the choices we make effect our lives, but we are not the CAPTIANS of our fate, they are merely FACTORS in our fates.

If you choose to delude yourself that you are the captain of your fate, if that helps you to get through you days, grand. But no captain with absolute authority over his vessel is stupid enough to think the OCEAN doesn't have its measure of control over his fate, too.

Apparently YOU think those CAPTIANS all losers for understanding that fact, or something.

Basically your faith in yourself is no less delusional that some people's faith in magic, but I understand how comforting such delusions are for some of us who cannot STAND the uncertainty of life.

Take a hard look at all these people you bemoan and tell me that you can honestly say their ownership in their plight is minimal at best?

Here you go again...minimal? How can we KNOW? How does one quantify such a question?

Look around at your coworkers and yourself and tell me that all or even over half of them have reached the pinacle of their potential.

How could I possible know that, Bernie? What makes you think you can?

Your own statements betray your confusion about his issue.

You seem to think that you can quantify the formula for people's fates in a way which is totally absurd.

We play the hands we're dealt, sport.

That is the best we can do.

We are NOT the dealers in the game of life, we sit at the table and play our hands.

Some of us are good players, some of us uninspired, but the cards we are dealt are beyond our ability to control.

 

[Bern80]

This is where I tell you you are debating against a straw man

Nobody has EVER said that effort has little or nothing to do with it, and you know it.

Again you have stated it quite clearly that is EXACLTY what you think. The more you try to continue this nonsense about unquantifiable factors the more you reveal your fear about holding yourself accountable. it's like you need to have this excuse tucked in you back pocket that you can whip and say 'see, it's not my fault'.

Nobody can tell us what the formula, is Bernie. Don't be absurd.

Such questions do not have a metric answer. Seeking to quantify then is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

Who can say what effect fate can have on any person, and who can say how much effect working hard played in their success or failure?

The notion that one can quantify those answers is simply goofy.

And yet you still think that one can quantify a FORMULA for how fate and ones efforts interplay to achive success or failure?!?

Your demand for that formula suggests that you still don't get it. Hence you continued use of words like "mostly" to describe how your hard work determined your personal fate.

It isn't goofy at all. Or do you mean to tell me that you honestly don't know what you do or don't/did or didn't have cotrol over in your life? It is fairly simple to inventory the variables that have contributed to who and where you are in life. From there you should be able to objectively determine to what extent you had control over those variables.

It's not just "initial circumstances" it's FATE all along which are combined with the labor of the people.

It isn't like the dice are cast once at birth. Every second of ever day the dice are cast for all of us, amigo. We do what we do, for good or bad, in the maelstrom. We do NOT control the maelstrom, we are but a part of it.

Now you're just being dramatic. For the vast majority of us the next day proceeds pretty much like the last. There is no 'maelstrom' to the day in and day out of most people's lives. Most don't get into a life changing car accident one day, get diagnosed with cancer the next, and have their home wiped out by a flood the next. Again quit being so dramatic. Life is not maelstrom, you can't control what happens to you in an anology like that and the fact is while minor to major things could and will happen to you in a normal day how those things are handled is determined by you.

Nobody can know what their efforts would be had their fates been so significantly different than they were.

What pomposity it requires to imgaine you'd have the indentical ego if you life were completely different.

Before you start using big words and spend your time coming with imaginitive (and ridiculous) sentences, you may want to to read for comprehension.

Effort might or might not play a significant (see there's that rush to quantify which I am complaining about, again) outcome in one's fate.

Whether it WILL is up in the air. Whether it DID is most certainly quaintifiable.

How much effort does it take to win the megbucks or to neglect to see the bus which runs you over?

I find it difficult to see why you are finding this so hard to understand to be honest, Bern.

Probably because you are doing as you always do. Presuppossing position to inflate your own ego.

And are you foolish enough not to understand that those parents were outside your efforts?

the parents you have are indeed fate. You do have a level of control in the role it plays in your outcomes however.

Is it? CAn you WILL the effects that life has on you not to effect you? Tell me, what magic are you employing to do that, Bernie?

So glad you asked because this is indeed where will power (or more accurately adaptation) comes into play. A variable that I did not have control over in getting cancer is that treatment for it required full body radiation which destroyed my sweat glands, thus I don't sweat. As you can imagine the ability to not regulate ones teperature via perspiration could have a limiting effect on the level of which one can physically exert themselves. So what's the problem? It isn't really that I can't sweat. It's that I can't keep cool. I can either tell myself because i can't sweat i can not particiapte in x activity. Or if it's something i really want to do I can figure out how to compensate for it (which I have).

Do you have a choice when you apply for HC insurance, or is your WILL irrlevant to what the insurance company charges you for your premiums? A small example of my point, but a telling one, nevertheless. Show me how by the strength of your character you are changing the cost of your health care premiums.

This is where you get into factors that YOU refuse to acknowledge. The best way I can say it is that their are things in life we intuitvely know, but many of us don't or refuse to acknowledge. What HC premiums you pay are a good example. You are copping out by saying that is something you can't control. This is the point where you have to get honest with yourself. What you DID choose was your career path, and what most of us intuitvely know is that most any job we get is going to have a health care plan of some type. You start after college say and apply for a bunch of jobs. Maybe you get 3-4 offers. If/when you choose one of those jobs you are inherently choosing and agreeing to whatever their benefits package is. The choices you make in life a build on each other and can have either effects that limit or expand future choices. If you decide that the most important factor in your future is how much you pay for health care, I suppose the smartest thing to do would be to put yourself on track to work for the government. When I say people don't (and you) don't aknowledge the level of control they have over certain things, this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

It is not up to you whether you keep that job, Bern. You play some part in your keeping it, however.
Choosing to show up and do your job, for example, obviously plays a role you keeping that job, without doubt.

Thank you for hilighting another mentality that prevails in too much of the work force. They think showing up on time and performing their job functions is what constitutes effort in terms of keeping a job. But the option is there to go so far beyond that. Dont' sit there and hope what you do continues to be valuable to your employer. FIND ways to BE valuable to your employer. Find ways to save them money. Come up with a new product. Do MORE than you the what is outlined in your job descriptions. All of those things will play a significant role in your job security.

But then too, many is the worker today, who has done that, who will discover they are unemployed by the end of the work day.

ARe they losers who deserved that fate, or merely people just as you and I are?

I believe it again goes back to earlier choices. One choice people make is whether to make money by working for someone or working for themselves. If you choose to work for someone you are choosing a couple other outcomes as well. One is that you probably wont' be mega wealthy. That is something that simply isn't attainable working for someone else. Two, you are also choosing at some level to be expendable (and even that is something that you can adapt to a certain extent). Maybe you do work hard and go the extra mile, but maybe technology changes and you are just plain expendable now. You may call that unfair, but that's life. It isn't governments role to make fair every unfortinate incident in your life.

Mostly? there is where you and I must part ways. Neither you nor I can QUANTIFY such factors. We can work hard and we can HOPE that nothing changes that stops us from continuing to do so.

Can you not look back at your life and determine the variables that you had control over? Can you not make the link as to how these variables put you where you are now?

If you choose to delude yourself that you are the captain of your fate, if that helps you to get through you days, grand. But no captain with absolute authority over his vessel is stupid enough to think the OCEAN doesn't have its measure of control over his fate, too.

From a purely practical perspective it is the better option than living life with your perspective. The chances of me being successfull are improved of I understand and acklowdege ALL of things I have control over and ALL of the ways I have contributed to where I am.

How could I possible know that, Bernie? What makes you think you can?

Your own statements betray your confusion about his issue.

You seem to think that you can quantify the formula for people's fates in a way which is totally absurd.

?

I don't need to know anyone's past. Whether I know what they are or not the variables that arrived them to x point in their life are still there. They can be examined and evaluated. I of course don't know anyone's future because I don't know what will happen to them or what choices they will make.

We play the hands we're dealt, sport.

That is the best we can do.

We are NOT the dealers in the game of life, we sit at the table and play our hands.

Some of us are good players, some of us uninspired, but the cards we are dealt are beyond our ability to control.

I have stated the same thing. Is there a reason you think your stating some major insight?

Poker is about the best metaphor for life there is. I would have to guess you either suck at it or are a very tight player. When you start out in poker you simply aren't aware of all the variables. No you can't control all of them, but even just being aware of them will vastly improve your outcome. The goal in poker is to get paid. Not much different the life. You say I am silly for believing in the level of control I believe I have. My question to you is why NOT? What is the downside? If I want to win at poker my best option is to identify as many variables as possible and determine what I can control. One thing I may not be able to control is the cards YOU get dealt or how you play them. But if I watch you long enough I can learn HOW you play them, which just another advantage for me which improves my odds.

 

[Bern80]

Wow, we're in a bad mood today, aren't we! Take it easy, life's too short to get so upset about nothing ...

And you are right, government is an institutional construct of the society (I loooove ze grid-group theory, btw and I'm not an institutionalist, rather a 'culturalist'). Obviously, it is the Swedish society THAT gives 'two shits' about its members. How Christian of them, don't you think?

Please, next time - be so kind and do not patronize me and call me names. It's not nice, you know? Bad Davey!

At some point you have to ask yourself what level of coddling is really in your best interest. As Dave said on the surface it may seem all nice and fuzzy that people's every need be taken care of cradle to grave. Sure you could make the argument that it's because your lovely government cares so deeply for you. But it really isn't. Certainly there is a reasonable balance that can be struck between the things government does for society and the expectations of you as it pertains to society. The simple fact is over time the burden has shifted to where government is becoming more responsibile for our needs than we are.

 

[Neser Boha]

Life ain't about nice... life is full of slaps in the face and doses of reality

I know, yet another reason why certain welfare systems - just like the Swedish one - are a welcome break in the never-ending shit cycle... at least after 9 years in US where I paid my way through school and worked most of the time 40 hrs a week while taking 12 credit hours at the University...

Entitlements at the expense of others does not mean that the society "gives two shits" about it's people... entitlements and the control systems that must be in place to operate them is about one thing and one thing only.. control and the abolition of personal freedoms and responsibility....

At the expense of others? Have you ever read anything of the Swedish welfare state? The famous middle way? Do you know anything of how it works and how its main financier - the tax system - works? Everyone - every single one - living and working in Sweden pays exuberant (not only by US standard) amounts of money into the tax system (sometimes reaching over 50% or the income tax, but hardly anything on the capital tax - which is one of the lowest in the world and way lower than in the US - smart move on the part of Sweden if ya ask me) and EVERYONE gets THE SAME 'entitlements'. Examples? Education, child-care, unemployment benefits, disability benefits, generous maternity leave, health-care... might be forgetting something. Yeah, so maybe Swedes maintain this welfare system out of purely egotistic concerns... hardly any crime, hardly any homelessness...great education system... pretty much one of the highest quality of life in the world (what was it - second in the world?) Yet, they maintain some of the most competitive and inventive economic systems as well... I'm sure you've heard of IKEA, H&M, Saab, Skanska, etc...

You may think that a mom that still takes care of every last thing for her 30 year old son living in her basement is "giving two shits"... .in actuality it is truly control and it is pitiful... truly "giving two shits" would be allowing people to be responsible for themselves

I'm sorry you feel this way... That just makes me glad I don't share your sad view of the world... If everyone felt like you, this would certainly be one miserable world... Fortunately, it's not so. I'm sure you can find proof of that in your everyday life... the question is whether you invite it or push it away...

Am I a disgusting optimist/idealist? Be glad I am. The cynical, anomie-ridden attitude towards life won't get anyone anywhere and will **** it up for the rest of us as well...

PS: Man, I talk too much! Ok, nap time before going out on the Stockholm town!

 

[Meister]

Life ain't about nice... life is full of slaps in the face and doses of reality

I know, yet another reason why certain welfare systems - just like the Swedish one - are a welcome break in the never-ending shit cycle... at least after 9 years in US where I paid my way through school and worked most of the time 40 hrs a week while taking 12 credit hours at the University...

Entitlements at the expense of others does not mean that the society "gives two shits" about it's people... entitlements and the control systems that must be in place to operate them is about one thing and one thing only.. control and the abolition of personal freedoms and responsibility....

At the expense of others? Have you ever read anything of the Swedish welfare state? The famous middle way? Do you know anything of how it works and how its main financier - the tax system - works? Everyone - every single one - living and working in Sweden pays exuberant (not only by US standard) amounts of money into the tax system (sometimes reaching over 50% or the income tax, but hardly anything on the capital tax - which is one of the lowest in the world and way lower than in the US - smart move on the part of Sweden if ya ask me) and EVERYONE gets THE SAME 'entitlements'. Examples? Education, child-care, unemployment benefits, disability benefits, generous maternity leave, health-care... might be forgetting something. Yeah, so maybe Swedes maintain this welfare system out of purely egotistic concerns... hardly any crime, hardly any homelessness...great education system... pretty much one of the highest quality of life in the world (what was it - second in the world?) Yet, they maintain some of the most competitive and inventive economic systems as well... I'm sure you've heard of IKEA, H&M, Saab, Skanska, etc...

You may think that a mom that still takes care of every last thing for her 30 year old son living in her basement is "giving two shits"... .in actuality it is truly control and it is pitiful... truly "giving two shits" would be allowing people to be responsible for themselves

I'm sorry you feel this way... That just makes me glad I don't share your sad view of the world... If everyone felt like you, this would certainly be one miserable world... Fortunately, it's not so. I'm sure you can find proof of that in your everyday life... the question is whether you invite it or push it away...

Am I a disgusting optimist/idealist? Be glad I am. The cynical, anomie-ridden attitude towards life won't get anyone anywhere and will **** it up for the rest of us as well...

PS: Man, I talk too much! Ok, nap time before going out on the Stockholm town!

Yeah, Sweden probably does have a social country that works right...from my readings. I have to ask you, what's the population of Sweden? Then I ask you, what's the population of the United States? Big difference isn't it? At around 9.2 million, I find it a little naive that you can even compare the 2 countries. Makes all the difference in the world in success, or not.
Yeah, I think you do talk too much. Your a socialist, and you were brought up that way, you know nothing else, I get it. Unlike you, I've grown up to take care of myself, and not have government intervention like your Sweden. Mark my words, you have less liberties than we do in the United States. So don't go knocking it until you tried it.. Enjoy your Stockholm, I bet it's a nice place to visit, but wouldn't want to live there.