Who is Responsible for Fatherless Black Families?

[Special Ed]

So far as science is concerned, there is no such thing as a Fatherless Family. Everyone has a father. Former NBA Superstar and multi-millionaire Shawn Kemp has 13 kids out of wedlock by 9 different women.

Without the benefit of the technology last seen in Michael Keaton's Multiplicity, chances are that Mr. Kemp won't be very present in the lives of his 13 children. But with $13,000/month child support payments for each child, something tells me they're gonna be just fine.

 

[BrianH]

Well that's what my entire point is. If the education system is equal, which it is. We all have the same opportunity, then who's to blame but yourself. Everything is there, but a lack in value of education is what keeps them where their at IMO.

And I did the same during college. I had no financial support from my family, and barely got any from the government my first two years of college. But I didn't let a "lack of money" stop me from persuing an education, cause I know it's paying off now.

 

[Ravi]

Well that's what my entire point is. If the education system is equal, which it is. We all have the same opportunity, then who's to blame but yourself. Everything is there, but a lack in value of education is what keeps them where their at IMO.

And I did the same during college. I had no financial support from my family, and barely got any from the government my first two years of college. But I didn't let a "lack of money" stop me from persuing an education, cause I know it's paying off now.

Brian, no offense, but where are you getting this idea that black people don't value education? You seem to be basing your entire premise on your own personal experience.

 

[BrianH]

I'm not saying that all black people don't value an education. I'm saying, from experience (talking with families), and statistics regarding drop-out,graduation, and college enrollment rates that most black families do not encourage their kids to go to college, for whatever reasons. There are exceptions to this, but only on a small scale.

So don't think that it's racist or stereotypical.
I have had kids argue with me about not going to college. They absolutely refuse the thought of attending college because their parents don't see the need, or because they think it costs too much, or cause they need them at home to do work, etc...

I'm not generalizing by saying that all black families are this way. But blacks have a higher drop-put rate than whites, a lower college enrollment than whites, and a lower college graduation rate than whites. (No bodies holding their heads under-water) Many whites attending college can come from the same low-financial background that we're discussing, and achieve.

I won't admit that this is an absolute truth (for those who want concrete evidence). But like I said in above posts. This is my opinion based on my reasearch and study.

 

[Ravi]

My kids say the same thing about college. I think a lot of it has to do with being sick of school in general. So you should encourage them anyway.

Back on this thread we discovered that college enrollment is rising among blacks. So what has changed? Head start programs, free school lunches, etc. Maybe it's something that has nothing to do with a lack of encouragement but something to do with early childhood nutrition.

Just sayiin.

 

[BrianH]

Yeah it it is improving. And I can understand the sick about school thing. It could be a combinatin of everything: Encouragement, childhood nutrition, free lunches, etc... Maybe their not getting everything they need.

When I was growing up, it wasn't a question of, "if I go to college." But a question of "When you go to college." And it's funny, cause my parents raised me on that idea, and then I paid for 99 percent of it myself. But my parents knew that I would need it in today's world.

I'm sure it's not strictlly encouragement and lack of values in education, but I feel that it has a large part.

 

[Ravi]

Okay then. We still haven't come up with an answer. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling the guy that started the thread thought these disparities stemmed strictly from skin color.

 

[BrianH]

LOL, I think you should trust your instincts.
I wish I had a solution...I think we've both got the right idea going as far as a solution is concerned, but I think finding an "actual" solution to the problem will take alot more time.

And I'll have to disagree with the skin color reference to the OP. I don't believe it revolves around skin color...I think?:

 

[The_Hammer]

But Hammer, you're statement said, "Yes it was fought mostly by white men, because blacks, on both sides, weren't ALLOWED to fight moron..."

You can't be that general because you are stating now that some were.

Estimates very, but somewhere bewteen 30,000-100,000 blacks served in the confederacy. Granted many were quartermasters and servants, but there were some who fought.

The Civil War began in 1861, so the North holding off until 1862 isn't that long before allowing blacks to fight.

Excuse me. I was incorrect. I should have said, LARGELY not allowed to fight. And my argument was based on those blacks in combat roles. Servants and quartermasters wouldn't matter. There are no definitive numbers on black Confederate combatants but I doubt that they were in as high numbers as the Union.

Ok, as far as blacks and education. You're first options A & B, just reiterate my statement that they do not value their education. and C is not correct either, blacks have the same amount of skill to achieve an education, it's because they do not realize that A & B are key factors in successfully achieving edcuation.

While A and B might "agree" with your statement they are less blanket than. "Blacks don't value their education." They answer part of the why. Argument A says that they don't see the value in it. Whether it be because they see it as a waste of time or because they won't make any money in a degree holding job. B is different in that someone will not work towards something they do not think they can achieve. Like your hotwheels collection, one person might think that they aren't worth anything, the next might think that they couldn't get enough hotwheels to have a decent return on their investment in them or that they could even acquire the hotwheels in the first place.[/Quote]

That's great that you're in college, what are you majoring in? Where are you goin? (If I may ask)

I'm a Math-Science major at a community college in my area. I will be attending Albany University in the fall and major in chemistry and physics with a minor in math.

 

[BrianH]

Excuse me. I was incorrect. I should have said, LARGELY not allowed to fight. And my argument was based on those blacks in combat roles. Servants and quartermasters wouldn't matter. There are no definitive numbers on black Confederate combatants but I doubt that they were in as high numbers as the Union.



While A and B might "agree" with your statement they are less blanket than. "Blacks don't value their education." They answer part of the why. Argument A says that they don't see the value in it. Whether it be because they see it as a waste of time or because they won't make any money in a degree holding job. B is different in that someone will not work towards something they do not think they can achieve. Like your hotwheels collection, one person might think that they aren't worth anything, the next might think that they couldn't get enough hotwheels to have a decent return on their investment in them or that they could even acquire the hotwheels in the first place.

I'm a Math-Science major at a community college in my area. I will be attending Albany University in the fall and major in chemistry and physics with a minor in math.[/QUOTE]


I appreciate your admission to phrasing wrong.
http://members.aol.com/neoconfeds/thorwitz.htm
http://blackinformant.com/2005/02/21/did-black-americans-actually-fight-for-the-confederacy/

I think black soldiers in the Confederacy fought a little more than you might think. Granted, it's not a large majority of the black population or even close to a majority of the military...but they fought in fairly large numbers. The fallacy that blacks were not allowed to fight, and even that blacks did not fight for the Confederacy is brought about by the North condemning the South and rallying the cause behind ending slavery.

I'll agree that your post answers some of why "blacks don't value an education." I think we're arguing the same point here. We've already established that there are several factors why many blacks don't value an education.

Read a few more of the previous posts and you'll see that we've already established this.

 

[The_Hammer]

Indeed we do agree.


Thank you for those links. On a side note It's disturbing to me to think that people would be proud of fighting, for a rebellious government. Sure have pride that your ancestors were soldiers (though misguided IMO) but the fact that they were part of a government that was largely unproductive and counter intuitive with progressive thought. I'd burn the stars and bars, not because I'd be offended with its racist connotations, but because it represents a traitorous group of individuals who were largely let off the hook for nearly tearing my country in half.

 

[BrianH]

Sure ok, it sounds like you're a little biased to begin with.

Much to your disbelief, the Civil War was not fought strictly over the right to own slaves.

Second, you can't refer to roughly 1/3(give or take) of the United States as a "group" of traitors. And this "traitorous group of individuals" held off the North for 4-5 good long years, and at one point were winning a majority of the battles. (Agreed they lost the war and all is well). But no less, bias does not equal correctness.

Third, most countries start-out fairly unproductive--even this one.

Fourth, the "stars-and-bars" (that is represented today as a racist flag) is not a national flag, it is a battle flag, the first national flag of the Confederate States looks alot different. (Much like the U.S. flag with a ring of stars in the blue)--Granted, later flags did have the stars and bars on them, but they were smaller.

Fifth, you could say the same thing about George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, B. Franklin, etc....(Of course, they succeeded and the story from our history is that it was right). I wonder how the British version goes? Do you think the British view/did view them as traitors?

You can't (maybe you can) have hatred and bias towards something that doesn't exist anymore. Maybe signs of taking it too seriously. This is my country just every bit as much as it is yours. My ancestors fought in the American Revolution, War of 1812, and so on...

I'm also from the South, but I'm not going to have a hatred for the North because they made my ancestors stay in the Union. Old News is Old News

 

[LuvRPgrl]

The reason behind why not too many blacks fought in the civil war is basically irrelevant. The point is white people secured the freedom for the black people. It was not a condition limited to America, but it did take longer for America to eliminate it. That was for many reasons.

The reason affirmative action and reperations are wrong is simple, because they are wrong. First, you are punishing innocent people, and there simply is NO EXCUSE for that to be allowed to happen, much less encouraged, nay, FORCED upon us by the govt. Second, its none of the govt's business to be involved in that.

Fact also is, when the govt forces social change instead of allowing society to do it, so it will occur faster, it is always a less quality of a change.

Racism is racism is racism. AA is simply wrong.

One of the, if not the most major reason many blacks dont get ahead is because of culture. It takes a long time for cultural change amongst a group, especially when they dont want the change for the most part. It is changing, and will continue to get better, but it takes time. The culture of the inner city black youth is one of helplessness. Blacks were helpless for hundreds of years, you cant get rid of that in mass, overnight.

As long as they are given the message that they need the help of the govt to get ahead, this helplessness is ironically just re inforced.
Culturally, if an inner city youth, black or any color, if they do well in school, or get ahead economically, they feel their "belonging" to their community/culture will become challenged/destroyed. They dont want that more than they dont want poverty. That is why they often intentionally do bad in school, they are ostracized if they do well.

Affirmative action, or any other method of "leveling the playing field" should only be done by the people, not the govt. We are a democracy last time I checked. If a majority of people want to do reperations/affirm action, then let them. If a majority doesnt want to, then it shouldnt be forced upon them. If it is forced, resentments will develope and even more division will be created. If its done voluntarily, then the resentments arent attatched to the improvement for the black community,.

Not to mention, it then opens the door for other issues the govt needs to redress. How about the American Indians?? Spics, wops, and others? Who is to make the decision who gets included and who doesnt?
Who makes the decision when racism is ok, and when it isnt?

Personally, when we sell our house, we are going into San Diego inner cities and starting programs to get some of the kids into private schools, and away from the gang banging culture, so they can move into another neighborhood and not have the cultural pressure to fail.

Im also toying with the idea of getting volunteers to go into some bad neighnorhoods and taking them over by buying out over half of the houses in the area and renting or living there, and if renting, then rent only to non locals, so to speak. It could be a great opportunity for alot of people who cant quite make it into home ownership in their existing neighborhood. If enough people did it, they could buy the houses at a discount, and if it works, they can drastically change the complexion of the neighborhood, and increase considerably, the value of their property and local businesses they would be opening.

What it would take is "selling" enough people on it to do it at the same time.

 

[Taomon]

The reason behind why not too many blacks fought in the civil war is basically irrelevant. The point is white people secured the freedom for the black people. It was not a condition limited to America, but it did take longer for America to eliminate it. That was for many reasons.

The reason affirmative action and reperations are wrong is simple, because they are wrong. First, you are punishing innocent people, and there simply is NO EXCUSE for that to be allowed to happen, much less encouraged, nay, FORCED upon us by the govt. Second, its none of the govt's business to be involved in that.

Fact also is, when the govt forces social change instead of allowing society to do it, so it will occur faster, it is always a less quality of a change.

Racism is racism is racism. AA is simply wrong.

One of the, if not the most major reason many blacks dont get ahead is because of culture. It takes a long time for cultural change amongst a group, especially when they dont want the change for the most part. It is changing, and will continue to get better, but it takes time. The culture of the inner city black youth is one of helplessness. Blacks were helpless for hundreds of years, you cant get rid of that in mass, overnight.

As long as they are given the message that they need the help of the govt to get ahead, this helplessness is ironically just re inforced.
Culturally, if an inner city youth, black or any color, if they do well in school, or get ahead economically, they feel their "belonging" to their community/culture will become challenged/destroyed. They dont want that more than they dont want poverty. That is why they often intentionally do bad in school, they are ostracized if they do well.

Affirmative action, or any other method of "leveling the playing field" should only be done by the people, not the govt. We are a democracy last time I checked. If a majority of people want to do reperations/affirm action, then let them. If a majority doesnt want to, then it shouldnt be forced upon them. If it is forced, resentments will develope and even more division will be created. If its done voluntarily, then the resentments arent attatched to the improvement for the black community,.

Not to mention, it then opens the door for other issues the govt needs to redress. How about the American Indians?? Spics, wops, and others? Who is to make the decision who gets included and who doesnt?
Who makes the decision when racism is ok, and when it isnt?

Personally, when we sell our house, we are going into San Diego inner cities and starting programs to get some of the kids into private schools, and away from the gang banging culture, so they can move into another neighborhood and not have the cultural pressure to fail.

Im also toying with the idea of getting volunteers to go into some bad neighnorhoods and taking them over by buying out over half of the houses in the area and renting or living there, and if renting, then rent only to non locals, so to speak. It could be a great opportunity for alot of people who cant quite make it into home ownership in their existing neighborhood. If enough people did it, they could buy the houses at a discount, and if it works, they can drastically change the complexion of the neighborhood, and increase considerably, the value of their property and local businesses they would be opening.

What it would take is "selling" enough people on it to do it at the same time.

It is rather telling how whites are so against affirmative actions that no amount of reason or debate can convince them of any merit to it. This isn't because affirmative action is wrong, it is because for the first time...whites feel the brunt of racism.

Now, I think there are better ways to secure equality in the work place aside from affirmative action. But let's face it...blacks have been dealing with affirmative action for decades, except it was whites who got picked over blacks, whites who got raises over blacks...even if they performed the same amount of work (and usually, the whites did not work as hard as the blacks).

 

[William Joyce]

This subject cannot be generalized.

Yes, it can. The statistics show that black men father and abandon children at amazingly higher rates than do white men, even controlling for wealth. Black athletes are champions at this despite have millions of dollars. How do you explain THAT?

 

[William Joyce]

I've only recently joined this forum but I've browsed a bit and have looked at the posts of the regular users. I've come to one conclusion.

You Mr. Joyce are retarded.

Do you know who causes fatherless WHITE families?

Sweet lord! It's WHITE MEN!

What about fatherless LATINO families?

My god! It's LATINO MEN!

All you have done in this topic Mr. Joyce is point out the obvious.

The very point of the thread was to respond to the false notion that fatherless black families are the fault of white society.

How can I be retarded if I'm pointing out the obvious?

 

[CharlestonChad]

How can I be retarded if I'm pointing out the obvious?

You're right, a retarded person would never point out that the sky is blue, and that they like ice-cream


You are just another person who thinks they know everything about everything, and one that is so set in one way of thinking that they cannot see the world as it is, but rather as it appears through the racially focused glasses that filter out any form of logic.

Natural selection will filter your type out b/c women aren't exactly attracted to men who hate everyone, and blame all of their problems on others.

 

[mattskramer]

Yes, it can. The statistics show that black men father and abandon children at amazingly higher rates than do white men, even controlling for wealth. Black athletes are champions at this despite have millions of dollars. How do you explain THAT?

Just keep right on hammering those differences. Oh the White people are so superior. Honestly, why do you keep this up? No one really cares. Do you have an inferiority complex or something? If you are so concerned, go to some predominantly White secluded community and stay away from the rest of society. I don’t like launching into personal attacks but I feel sorry for you. I hope that you are just putting on an act with your incessant racist rhetoric. Otherwise, you are an embarrassment to your “White race”.

 

[Gunny]

Just keep right on hammering those differences. Oh the White people are so superior. Honestly, why do you keep this up? No one really cares. Do you have an inferiority complex or something? If you are so concerned, go to some predominantly White secluded community and stay away from the rest of society. I don’t like launching into personal attacks but I feel sorry for you. I hope that you are just putting on an act with your incessant racist rhetoric. Otherwise, you are an embarrassment to your “White race”.

You don't preach to the choir; which, is what hanging out in a secluded, white supremicist community would be doing. You take your message to those that don't accept it.

Essentailly, we are all doing the same thing here ... selling our beliefs, right or wrong.

 

[mattskramer]

You don't preach to the choir; which, is what hanging out in a secluded, white supremicist community would be doing. You take your message to those that don't accept it.

Essentailly, we are all doing the same thing here ... selling our beliefs, right or wrong.

Well, he is trying to sell his message to me and I am not buying it. Maybe Blacks are different. I doubt that they are significantly different. Anyway, it does not matter that much to me. As far as I can tell, we are (as a whole) better off with when we come together than when we use such divisive we-vs-them rhetoric. I just don’t know what else to say about him except that I sort of feel sorry for people with that type of mentality.