Who is Responsible for Fatherless Black Families?

[Ravi]

Perhaps it's just too sensitive a subject to research?

Could be. The government tends to keep statistics on things it wants to keep statistics on. I'm kind of surprised that some special interest group doesn't track these things, though.

 

[Ravi]

Gunny, last time I checked, there is no law that compels anyone to hire someone that isn't qualified.

 

[Ravi]

You have to admit that there is a larger number of black americans that do not expect their children to attend college.

Why is that?

 

[Ravi]

RGS, there is actually less severe poverty now than there was before the sixties across all ethnic backgrounds. And more people of all ethnic backgrounds go to college...in fact it's become kind of a scam, college, but that's a topic for another thread.

You say stop doing this and stop doing that. How about coming up with a solution as an alternative...what would work to bring more people out of poverty?

 

[BrianH]

Ravir

"Why is that?"



http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/Vol_5/5_4/6_2.asp

While I agree that the numbers have been getting better in recent years (which is great), as far as black Americans in education, this site give a pretty good statistical insight into blacks, whites, and hispanics in our education sysytem.

I believe that more and more blacks are encouraging an education, but it's not large scale enough to "turn-around" the cycle for them, yet.

It seems that hispanics are less likely than both races to graduate high school and persue postsecondary education.

 

[Ravi]

levels of parental education of Black children have increased, and the number of Black individuals and families below the poverty level has decreased

So it has something to do with poverty?

 

[BrianH]

I believe that it not only has to do with poverty, but the factor that continues the cycle of poverty. (Education and attitude about education).

For example: say you have a child that comes from a family below the poverty line. His family has always been in poverty. Many of them have barely graduated high school and many have dropped out of high school. The majority of them have gotten low-paying jobs (if at all) and continuing the cycle of poverty in their family. Ok, his child we're talking about is encouraged by his parents to get an education. Do anything it takes, even if it means going into debt with student loans. This child goes to college and gets a bachelors degree. He'll go out and get well-paying job to support his future family. He will be living above the poverty line with his well-paying job, ending the cycle of poverty in his family. Then he too will encourage that his kids get an education.

It's the attitude about education that needs to change. Poverty is caused by lack of money earned. And in today's society, more money=higher education (typically--there are exceptions)

I come from a poverty-line family. I'm the first to get a college degree, and I'm doing better than my parents did when they were my age. But my parents pushed an education because it was something they were never encouraged to do, and they know how important it was going to be.

 

[Ravi]

Poverty is caused by lack of money earned.

Stunningly brilliant!

Okay, so how do you change the attitude toward education?

 

[BrianH]

I like you're sarcasm by the way.



Ravir

"Okay, so how do you change the attitude toward education?"

--That is the question that I wish I had the answer for.--

 

[The_Hammer]

Oh yeah, affirmative action works so well. It forces employers to hire based on racial/gender quota rather than qualification.

Which of course has nothing to do with instilling the VERY REAL victim mentality in a people who believe they are still entitled because someone in their ancestry was a slave. A belief instilled by apologist white liberals who are afraid they might offend their own shadows.

Wrong. For business, affirmative action works by making sure that those employed are not discriminated against despite having equal qualifications. It's slightly different for colleges where lower grades might get you a seat because you are a minority.

 

[The_Hammer]

Let me pick this apart a bit for you.

One solution would be to STOP teaching people they are "entitled" to special treatment. STOP claiming whites are to blame for every problem blacks have. STOP claiming that the Country owe blacks something because 160 years ago we had slaves, by the way why don't we have slaves any more? One reason is because of a devastating war that was predominantly fought by WHITE men.

Yes it was fought mostly by white men, because blacks, on both sides, weren't ALLOWED to fight moron, that combine with the fact that A) Most northerners were white and B) the south had a higher black population than the north. In the north blacks weren't allowed to fight and in the south, well you'd be retarded to mass arm a group of people you have oppressed at the same time as having a larger, better equipped, and more powerful army attacking you at the same time, that was advocating their freedom. That's just simple. And when eventually blacks were allowed to fight, their units, per capita, performed better than their white counterparts.

The laws are on the books to protect all minorities, it is past time to stop breeding dependence and excuses for failure. It is past time for a certain political party to stop selling the idea that whites owe blacks special treatment. It is PAST TIME to stop being so ignorant that you have to find reasons to feel guilty for things that happened BEFORE you were even BORN.

You do not make anyone "equal" by making them MORE than equal, by giving them special treatment. That breeds its own brand of problems. Either we are all equal under the law or we are not. Special programs set up for minorities is living proof we are NOT all equal. The Government MUST be color blind. Special programs should only exist as private group run. NO envolvement from the Government AT all.

Enforce the laws we have, make new ones if we need them, BUT end special treatment.

This is a wonderful ideal to have now, however, de facto and de jure inequality of the past has led to inequities now. As a result, simply saying "O well we don't do that any more we're all equal" does not work because those who have already been disenfranchised are already at a disadvantage. That's what the purpose of affirmative action (esp for colleges) and other similar programs do.

 

[BrianH]

While I agree on the Idea of Affirmative Action, it is not carried out that way.
There are many accounts of people loses out on a job because the company hires a less qualified-minority to meet a quota.

Cops are required to meet quotas on traffic tickets...they'll never admit it.

College campuses are required to meet quotas.

I don't have a huge problem with these, but this is the way that things are. Whether we acknowedge them or not.

 

[The_Hammer]

"Okay, so how do you change the attitude toward education?"

--That is the question that I wish I had the answer for.--

You make an education more lucrative, easier to obtain, and provide people with the skills to obtain it. And it is a myth that black people are less inured to higher education than whites. The difference is that poor blacks (and poor people in general) either A) do not see higher education as lucrative or B) do not see it as achievable or C) do not have the skills to perform at a level where a higher education is in fact attainable. The only reason that that myth is establish is because blacks are per capita poorer than whites.

A) Is solved simply by making certain skilled jobs (whether degree or certificate requiring ones) pay better or decreasing the costs of living. Of course this is entirely up to the market. Also, there is a problem with the focus on degreed jobs when one can make just as much (and generally more depending where you are) than as a skilled laborer, such as a plumber, or auto-tech, or floorer. This kinda happened in the earlier part of the century when it was difficult for blacks to get into university but not to become carpenters or roofers, which payed rather well. However since in our society such persons are generally seen as lower than their degree holding counterparts (even if they make more money) people are less likely to pursue jobs in those fields.

B and C go together. Poorer individuals generally come from poorer school secondary school districts, with over crowding, poor teaching, and etc. As a result students do not receive the intensity of conditioning for college and seeing it as an attainable goal. One way that has helped lower income people who do not receive collegiate conditioning are BOCES programs. I know that in my state (NY) these have helped lots of lower income individuals get jobs out of high school. Unfortunately, due to the emphasis on college and a lack of conditioning and preparedness, lots of people fall through the cracks again.

 

[BrianH]

You make an education more lucrative, easier to obtain, and provide people with the skills to obtain it. And it is a myth that black people are less inured to higher education than whites. The difference is that poor blacks (and poor people in general) either A) do not see higher education as lucrative or B) do not see it as achievable or C) do not have the skills to perform at a level where a higher education is in fact attainable. The only reason that that myth is establish is because blacks are per capita poorer than whites.

A) Is solved simply by making certain skilled jobs (whether degree or certificate requiring ones) pay better or decreasing the costs of living. Of course this is entirely up to the market. Also, there is a problem with the focus on degreed jobs when one can make just as much (and generally more depending where you are) than as a skilled laborer, such as a plumber, or auto-tech, or floorer. This kinda happened in the earlier part of the century when it was difficult for blacks to get into university but not to become carpenters or roofers, which payed rather well. However since in our society such persons are generally seen as lower than their degree holding counterparts (even if they make more money) people are less likely to pursue jobs in those fields.

B and C go together. Poorer individuals generally come from poorer school secondary school districts, with over crowding, poor teaching, and etc. As a result students do not receive the intensity of conditioning for college and seeing it as an attainable goal. One way that has helped lower income people who do not receive collegiate conditioning are BOCES programs. I know that in my state (NY) these have helped lots of lower income individuals get jobs out of high school. Unfortunately, due to the emphasis on college and a lack of conditioning and preparedness, lots of people fall through the cracks again.

I agree with some thingst that you've said, however, are you suggesting that most blacks do value a higher education and that their only being restrained?

That would be a myth. I work with kids every-day and the experience confirms this. Sure, there are many black families who encourage their kids to get an education and to go to college. These kids that achieve higher education, get higher paying jobs. (granted there are those that don't require a degree.) Then they encourage their own kids to get an education, ending the cylce of poverty. I garuauntee you that if as many blacks valued a college education as whites, their would be more enrolled in college and earning degrees.

Blacks have just as many opportunities to succeed as whites. Sure, many of them come from lower socioeconomic status, but that doesn't stop low income white kids from obtaining college degrees. I've got student loans up for my college. I wasn't rich and I've got an education.

We live in an age of certification...you have to have certifications for everything. (Not literally). But if someone wants something welded, they'll get someone who's a certified welder. If they want their house remodeled, their not going to hire an uncertified carpenter, they'll hire a certified one.

The government has provided tools for which to obtain an education. Millions of dollars are used for grants and financial assistance.

Making education more of a priority in the minds of young minorities will help alleviate this problem. If you're encouraged from birth to crap in your back yard, you'll probably do it the rest of your life. If you're taught to value an education and to do everything you can to obtain higher education, more (not all) will try to achieve it.

 

[Larkinn]

Let me pick this apart a bit for you.



Yes it was fought mostly by white men, because blacks, on both sides, weren't ALLOWED to fight moron, that combine with the fact that A) Most northerners were white and B) the south had a higher black population than the north. In the north blacks weren't allowed to fight and in the south, well you'd be retarded to mass arm a group of people you have oppressed at the same time as having a larger, better equipped, and more powerful army attacking you at the same time, that was advocating their freedom. That's just simple. And when eventually blacks were allowed to fight, their units, per capita, performed better than their white counterparts.




This is a wonderful ideal to have now, however, de facto and de jure inequality of the past has led to inequities now. As a result, simply saying "O well we don't do that any more we're all equal" does not work because those who have already been disenfranchised are already at a disadvantage. That's what the purpose of affirmative action (esp for colleges) and other similar programs do.

De facto and de jure?

Whats your educational background, if you don't mind me asking.

 

[BrianH]

Blacks did fight on both sides. They were actually recruited on both sides to increase manpower.

 

[The_Hammer]

Blacks did fight on both sides. They were actually recruited on both sides to increase manpower.

Not drastically in the south. I remember reading a book on blacks who fought for the confederacy. In line with their feudal behavior, southerners used blacks almost as squires and assistants. They would largely accompany and help their masters and their masters units. They were not recruited en masse in the south, at least not enough to have any drastic effect on the war. Such would have been retarded because arming your slaves is dumb and second because they were really the only folks who could work in war industries (what little their was) since most white males were fighting. In the north they were restricted until about 1862 and then in only limited numbers. However by the end of the war they comprised about 10% of the total number of troops, which was actually a large number, considering the percentage of black people in the north. But initially they were restricted (which is what I was referring to in RetiredGySgts post).

I agree with some thingst that you've said, however, are you suggesting that most blacks do value a higher education and that their only being restrained?

No. I said that there are things which lead to them (and lower income individuals in general) to choose or incapable of competing on a collegiate level. I mentioned 3 things, two of which lead to poor choices, the third which is the result of the disparity between education quality. I did not say that one is more prevalent over the other, which you appear to be assuming. I'm saying that all three factors have a tendency to lead to the black people not going to school.

 

[The_Hammer]

De facto and de jure?

Whats your educational background, if you don't mind me asking.

I'm a second semester college freshman.

 

[BrianH]

But Hammer, you're statement said, "Yes it was fought mostly by white men, because blacks, on both sides, weren't ALLOWED to fight moron..."

You can't be that general because you are stating now that some were.

Estimates very, but somewhere bewteen 30,000-100,000 blacks served in the confederacy. Granted many were quartermasters and servants, but there were some who fought.

The Civil War began in 1861, so the North holding off until 1862 isn't that long before allowing blacks to fight.


Ok, as far as blacks and education. You're first options A & B, just reiterate my statement that they do not value their education. and C is not correct either, blacks have the same amount of skill to achieve an education, it's because they do not realize that A & B are key factors in successfully achieving edcuation.

It's like valuing a hotwheels collection, not cause you just love them, but because you know they'll be worth alot of money one day. If more blacks were taught at a young age, to value all aspects (one day earning money, being edcuated, making better decisions, etc...) of education, then you would see a larger number of black students attending college.

That's great that you're in college, what are you majoring in? Where are you goin? (If I may ask)

 

[PpleLOSINGpower]

3. The "whites are out to get us" attitude has to be changed. Black families need to instill, in their children, the fact that they are in control of their own success. Whites are no longer doing this. They have just as many opportunities to be successful. I'm white, and I worked 40 hours a week at a 5.50 an hour job to pay for my college. I went full time while working full-time. Sure, I could make an excuse and say that I was poor and didn't have money for school. but my education was important to me, and my parents encouraged it.

QUOTE]

Okay, still not really getting to any logical hypothesis, but I totally agree with the equal education part. I am closing in on my graduation date from college, working 40+ hours a week, and performing a 20 hour a week internshp. All this just for an education to better myself without the help of parental financial support. Most African Americans live within a demographic of poverty, or lower class, and qualify for numerous grants and financial aid as support to enroll in college courses.

No one is to blame but blame itself.