Who Are The Palestinians?

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, actually I did answer your question; you just did not grasp it.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I'm an not an expert.

• Is HAMAS (as P F Tinmore says) the "freely and fairly elected" for all of Palestine?
• If so, then what is the Government of Palestine?

You have good questions.

You are the expert. What are the answers?

(COMMENT)

This is all about the Arab Palestinian people being in the drivers seat. They have to frame a working government that is dedicated to the DOP relative to the development of Friendly relations and Co-operation among States, INCLUDING the Jewish State of Israel.

From a realist standpoint (the elephant on the table that no one really wants to address) is the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip have not real unified government. The Palestinians themselves really have not come to a conclusion as to a direction they should take. While it is clear the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement is clearly much more capable at international co-operation and has made enormous contributions in the last decade to and for the Palestinian community, HAMAS (doing the exact opposite) has captured significant community support. It remains to be seen how it plays out. But the longer it takes the Palestinians to decide, the more they will suffer economically and otherwise.

Most Respectfully,
R

You posted all of that without answering my question?

(COMMENT)

The conflict cannot be resolved until the Arab Palestinian:

• Forms an uncontested legitimate government.
• It must adopt the DOP Friendly relations and Co-operation among States, in place of the HAMAS Covenant, the March 2013 Policies, and the PNA Charter.
• It must adopt a policy of disbanding and disassociation from internationally recognized terrorist organization.
• It must adopt a policy for Reducing the Illicit Trafficking of Small Arms and Light Weapons (SALW) to terrorist activities operating in the State of Palestine.
  
• It must adopt a policy to refrain from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.
• It must adopt a policy to ensure the apprehension and prosecution or extradition of perpetrators of terrorist acts, in accordance with the relevant provisions of national and international law, in particular human rights law, refugee law and international humanitarian law.

This is the starting point.

Most Respectfully,
R

Why don't you just say that you are ducking the question?

It would take much less space.

 

[aris2chat]

umh...so FrontPage and New Republic are your scholarly and academic sources?

From the poster who quotes wiki...

To the others, is "coyote" a new ID for the poster who used to use "PF Tinmore"?

Wiki's take on the New Historians - both pro and con, and it includes the JSTOR source. New Historians - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It does not include FrontPage or New Republic.

You have a problem with American based conservative or unbiased publications? Do you equate conservative with jewish?
Have you read either one except for the few articles related to the middle east or Israel?

 

[aris2chat]

Coyote, et al,

It can and it should.

Can Gaza and West Bank be one nation/one people? Maybe they should be negotiated with as separate entities.

(COMMENT)

A land bridge is not that difficult.

R

All very nice.

But its a bit like saying the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto should have made peace with the Germans, and used their unique advantages to create economic benefit for all.

This is not a ghetto and Israel is not germany.

 

[Coyote]

umh...so FrontPage and New Republic are your scholarly and academic sources?

From the poster who quotes wiki...

To the others, is "coyote" a new ID for the poster who used to use "PF Tinmore"?

Wiki's take on the New Historians - both pro and con, and it includes the JSTOR source. New Historians - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It does not include FrontPage or New Republic.

You have a problem with American based conservative or unbiased publications? Do you equate conservative with jewish?
Have you read either one except for the few articles related to the middle east or Israel?

I have a problem, Aris, with someone who takes me to task for not using "scholarly" or "academic" sources and who then himself uses very non-scholarly sources.

Wouldn't you have an issue with that?

Secondly - why do you claim that "FrontPage" and "New Republic" are "unbiased"?

 

[Coyote]

The so-called "palestinians" as the media calls them today - they were known as "arabs" before the 1960s when arafat began receiving lots of free publicity - are as artificial as margarine and rene zellweger's face. They are a social construct, a KGB-designed ploy used to counter the world-wide sympathy for the jews after the holocaust. Given the horrific suffering of the jews during WW2, the KGB and its lackey arafat realized they would need to really work hard to develop a group of people whose false narrative could be even remotely compared to the jews, so they created the notion of the "palestinians," an allegedly "native" or "indigenous" group of people who have endured a terrible situation, and with lots of dosings of lies, nonsense and falsehoods, could be placed before the cameras and called "victims."

The unfortunate truth for the jews in israel is that the worldwide media represents the major corporate interests, which have a great deal of influence on most of the major governments, and do not like the jews, so they were all too eager to embrace the notion of the romantic revolutionary (i.e., che guevera, castro, etc.) against the nascent jewish state. With decades of KGB-driven propaganda funneled into the all-too-embracing media, college indoctrination through "department chairs" purchased by wealthy arab muslims through which to promulgate the propaganda about the artificial palestinians "suffering" into younger Western minds, and the funding of fabricated think tanks ("WRMEA")/fake human rights organizations ("CAIR") also spewing the same bile, it has generated a groundswell amongst the dim, uneducated and unsuccessful of Western society a level of support for the "palestinians" that is unmatched for even the most genuinely afflicted groups of peoples.

But on the other hand, even with this mountain of funding, media outlets, and orgs aligned against it, when polls are taken in modern countries with highly educated populaces Israel still retains a wide level of support that generally dwarfs that of the "palestinians," a group so undeserving of support it is hard to compare them to any other.

None of your links prove anything, and many of the so-called "new historians" have been long dis-credited or recanted their earlier revisionist BS. Many arabs themselves have admitted that the deir yassin "massacre" was a manufactured story to scare the arab populace and instill anger in them, that they were told what to tell the media. There was no Israeli official policy to carry out a mass expulsion, nor is there any evidence that they tried to.

A thinking person would ask themselves: "if they had planned to ethnically cleanse the region of the arabs, why haven't they done so when they repeatedly had the opportunity?

None of your bullshit and lies prove anything bozo. There has been no discrediting of the "neo historians" there has been no recanting. The only thing that has been discredited, is the propaganda that Israel spewed and you parrot.

The IDF itself admits that mass expulsion occurred:

"...a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled “The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948”. This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. “At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.” To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which “directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration”. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to “fears” and “a crisis of confidence” affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases..."

The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

Yeah, but tomorrow some numbnuts will come back with the same old lie that the Palestinians were told to leave by the Arabs.

Consider yourself told today, Tinmore. Most Arabs were told to leave, come back during Judenrein.

Apparently that claim has been debunked.

At the time, Pathe News had newsreels preceeding every movie in America and I distinctly remember watching and hearing how the majority of Arabs were told by their leaders to leave. There were those the Jews moved out or killed but no-one in the world can debunk what I heard and remember.

You may have heard them. However - the winner controls the narrative. Historians have discovered that there is little evidence to support that narrative. Yes, some were told to leave. However many more left for other reasons as was outlined. Do you think those Israeli archival documents lie?

 

[Coyote]

You know...it's interesting. I think many of us can acknowledge that the Palestinians (and Hamas in particular) have not exactly been good actors on the international stage particularly with their use of terrorism against innocent civilians. It does tend to undermine their very legitimate grievance. Yet - when you start chipping away at the official israeli narratives of "history" - oh my god, you are shooting sacred cows. Rather than look at it objectively and say ya, but that was then and this is now - the reaction is deny, descredit and shut off access to the archived documents.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinians?

Dr. Aziz Dweik

 

[theliq]

Who are the Palestinians?

Dr. Aziz Dweik

Thanks Tinnie,one clear voice in a morass of cloud in this thread....one wonders why Dr Dweik would have been imprisoned????????I note during this vid., it states that Israel says,saying that the Israeli Soldiers selling Palestinian body parts is Anti-Semitic......I have not seen this claim before...what is this all about.

If this is being done....It is not Anti-Semitic....IT IS AN UNLAWFUL ACT....keep up your excellent honest posts my friend...steve

 

[theliq]

You know...it's interesting. I think many of us can acknowledge that the Palestinians (and Hamas in particular) have not exactly been good actors on the international stage particularly with their use of terrorism against innocent civilians. It does tend to undermine their very legitimate grievance. Yet - when you start chipping away at the official israeli narratives of "history" - oh my god, you are shooting sacred cows. Rather than look at it objectively and say ya, but that was then and this is now - the reaction is deny, descredit and shut off access to the archived documents.

It depends how you look at it..........

 

[Mindful]

Philistines were not Arabs (and were in fact, invaders from Crete) and there is no mention of Palestine until the first century. Palestinians are not mentioned in the Bible or Koran because they did not exist until after 1967.

 

[MJB12741]

Philistines were not Arabs (and were in fact, invaders from Crete) and there is no mention of Palestine until the first century. Palestinians are not mentioned in the Bible or Koran because they did not exist until after 1967.

The overwhelming majority of today's Muslim Palestinians are squatters on Israel's land with no deeds or titles whatsoever to the land they have occupied for several generations now.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You know...it's interesting. I think many of us can acknowledge that the Palestinians (and Hamas in particular) have not exactly been good actors on the international stage particularly with their use of terrorism against innocent civilians. It does tend to undermine their very legitimate grievance. Yet - when you start chipping away at the official israeli narratives of "history" - oh my god, you are shooting sacred cows. Rather than look at it objectively and say ya, but that was then and this is now - the reaction is deny, descredit and shut off access to the archived documents.

Yes, when you immerse yourself in Arab propaganda, and lose all sense of decency, it is quite easy to rationalize your support for those committed to the genocide of a small minority.

Intelligent people who have not allowed their sense of decency to be chipped away consider the source, however, and do not follow the genocidal quite so blindly.

 

[Mindful]

You know...it's interesting. I think many of us can acknowledge that the Palestinians (and Hamas in particular) have not exactly been good actors on the international stage particularly with their use of terrorism against innocent civilians. It does tend to undermine their very legitimate grievance. Yet - when you start chipping away at the official israeli narratives of "history" - oh my god, you are shooting sacred cows. Rather than look at it objectively and say ya, but that was then and this is now - the reaction is deny, descredit and shut off access to the archived documents.

Yes, when you immerse yourself in Arab propaganda, and lose all sense of decency, it is quite easy to rationalize your support for those committed to the genocide of a small minority.

Intelligent people who have not allowed their sense of decency to be chipped away consider the source, however, and do not follow the genocidal quite so blindly.

It's not about sympathy for, or solidarity with, the Palestinians. These people couldn't care less about them.

Their agenda is something else.

 

[Coyote]

Philistines were not Arabs (and were in fact, invaders from Crete) and there is no mention of Palestine until the first century. Palestinians are not mentioned in the Bible or Koran because they did not exist until after 1967.

The overwhelming majority of today's Muslim Palestinians are squatters on Israel's land with no deeds or titles whatsoever to the land they have occupied for several generations now.

yayaya...just like the overwelming majority of Jews are European invaders...how many times are we going to hear the same spin?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

yayaya...just like the overwelming majority of Jews are European invaders...how many times are we going to hear the same spin?

21,377 and counting by the looks of it.

 

[Coyote]

You know...it's interesting. I think many of us can acknowledge that the Palestinians (and Hamas in particular) have not exactly been good actors on the international stage particularly with their use of terrorism against innocent civilians. It does tend to undermine their very legitimate grievance. Yet - when you start chipping away at the official israeli narratives of "history" - oh my god, you are shooting sacred cows. Rather than look at it objectively and say ya, but that was then and this is now - the reaction is deny, descredit and shut off access to the archived documents.

Yes, when you immerse yourself in Arab propaganda, and lose all sense of decency, it is quite easy to rationalize your support for those committed to the genocide of a small minority.

Intelligent people who have not allowed their sense of decency to be chipped away consider the source, however, and do not follow the genocidal quite so blindly.

The source was archived Israeli government documents. Now, are you going to find a way to spin that into "propaganda"?

 

[Coyote]

You know...it's interesting. I think many of us can acknowledge that the Palestinians (and Hamas in particular) have not exactly been good actors on the international stage particularly with their use of terrorism against innocent civilians. It does tend to undermine their very legitimate grievance. Yet - when you start chipping away at the official israeli narratives of "history" - oh my god, you are shooting sacred cows. Rather than look at it objectively and say ya, but that was then and this is now - the reaction is deny, descredit and shut off access to the archived documents.

Yes, when you immerse yourself in Arab propaganda, and lose all sense of decency, it is quite easy to rationalize your support for those committed to the genocide of a small minority.

Intelligent people who have not allowed their sense of decency to be chipped away consider the source, however, and do not follow the genocidal quite so blindly.

It's not about sympathy for, or solidarity with, the Palestinians. These people couldn't care less about them.

Their agenda is something else.

Or maybe it is.

Some of us happen to feel that they deserve to have a state and a two state solution is the best way to go. You can't keep a people in landless/stateless limbo forever while you chip away at their land and their rights. Whether it's Palestinians or some other group.

You are not going to have peace until that situation is settled along with it's attendent issues.

What is your agenda? Do you really think all folks only support the Palestinian cause because (I'm guessing this is what are implying) they are anti-semitic or hate Israel?

There is room for both.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Some of us happen to feel that they deserve to have a state and a two state solution is the best way to go. You can't keep a people in landless/stateless limbo forever while you chip away at their land and their rights. Whether it's Palestinians or some other group.

You are not going to have peace until that situation is settled along with it's attendent issues.

What is your agenda? Do you really think all folks only support the Palestinian cause because (I'm guessing this is what are implying) they are anti-semitic or hate Israel?

There is room for both.

Yes, I'm sure there is room for both the support of Arabs and the hatred of Jews in one disgusting ideology.

I'm surprised you admitted as much.

 

[Beelzebub]

I on the other hand feel that Zionists should only be allowed to stay in The Levant to serve out long prison sentences. Whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Atheist.

Jews and Muslims can choose to stay or go, but must be treated equally under all law, with very strong reference to which families were inhabiting land and property in 1918, and with right being disqualified for those who invaded after or who descend from European invaders.

With a general amnesty for those prepared to admit to their crimes and work towards making restoration.

 

[Mindful]

You know...it's interesting. I think many of us can acknowledge that the Palestinians (and Hamas in particular) have not exactly been good actors on the international stage particularly with their use of terrorism against innocent civilians. It does tend to undermine their very legitimate grievance. Yet - when you start chipping away at the official israeli narratives of "history" - oh my god, you are shooting sacred cows. Rather than look at it objectively and say ya, but that was then and this is now - the reaction is deny, descredit and shut off access to the archived documents.

Yes, when you immerse yourself in Arab propaganda, and lose all sense of decency, it is quite easy to rationalize your support for those committed to the genocide of a small minority.

Intelligent people who have not allowed their sense of decency to be chipped away consider the source, however, and do not follow the genocidal quite so blindly.

It's not about sympathy for, or solidarity with, the Palestinians. These people couldn't care less about them.

Their agenda is something else.

Or maybe it is.

Some of us happen to feel that they deserve to have a state and a two state solution is the best way to go. You can't keep a people in landless/stateless limbo forever while you chip away at their land and their rights. Whether it's Palestinians or some other group.

You are not going to have peace until that situation is settled along with it's attendent issues.

What is your agenda? Do you really think all folks only support the Palestinian cause because (I'm guessing this is what are implying) they are anti-semitic or hate Israel?

There is room for both.

No comment.