Who Are The Palestinians?

[Beelzebub]

Except...they never said "no Jews". Nice bit of fiction though

Abbas said about 2 weeks ago no israelis would be allowed to live in the west bank, do keep up with the news.

You might follow your own advice.

No ISRAELIS.

No ISRAELI citizens. No ISRAELI troops.

Whoever lives there will be Palestinian citizens.

And, in case you haven't figured it out yet - not all Israeli's are Jews.

Palestinians will have A and B, but unless there is some agreement on land exchange and not flooding Israel with refugees and access to the mount for all, then Israelis unlikely to let go of C anytime soon.

Which is why there will need to be negotiated landswaps so there can be some form of a contiguous state for the Palestinians while maintaining security for Israel.

I would recommend Manhattan is swapped for all the land that Palestinians had in 1938.
By which I mean Palestinians get their land back.

Then reparations paid by the USA to compensate Palestinians for all the deprivations, destroyed opportunities, killings and depravity of Israel. Two or three years of GDP ought to cover it.

 

[Coyote]

Refute the points. Wikipedia is perfectly good source in that it lists primary sources including books which aren't available on line. It also has discussion areas so you know who is doing what and it points out articles that are insufficiently sourced or bias.

Rocco did an excellent job earlier in his statement about library texts, academic materials, etc. Those are legitimate sources - books written by qualified academics, not some dipshit on the web pretending to have scanned a few anti-israel web sites and then posted their links.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I'm an not an expert.

• Is HAMAS (as P F Tinmore says) the "freely and fairly elected" for all of Palestine?
• If so, then what is the Government of Palestine?

You have good questions.

You are the expert. What are the answers?

(COMMENT)

This is all about the Arab Palestinian people being in the drivers seat. They have to frame a working government that is dedicated to the DOP relative to the development of Friendly relations and Co-operation among States, INCLUDING the Jewish State of Israel.

From a realist standpoint (the elephant on the table that no one really wants to address) is the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip have not real unified government. The Palestinians themselves really have not come to a conclusion as to a direction they should take. While it is clear the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement is clearly much more capable at international co-operation and has made enormous contributions in the last decade to and for the Palestinian community, HAMAS (doing the exact opposite) has captured significant community support. It remains to be seen how it plays out. But the longer it takes the Palestinians to decide, the more they will suffer economically and otherwise.

Most Respectfully,
R

Can Gaza and West Bank be one nation/one people? Maybe they should be negotiated with as seperate entities.

 

[Coyote]

Except...they never said "no Jews". Nice bit of fiction though

Abbas said about 2 weeks ago no israelis would be allowed to live in the west bank, do keep up with the news.

You might follow your own advice.

No ISRAELIS.

No ISRAELI citizens. No ISRAELI troops.

Whoever lives there will be Palestinian citizens.

And, in case you haven't figured it out yet - not all Israeli's are Jews.

Palestinians will have A and B, but unless there is some agreement on land exchange and not flooding Israel with refugees and access to the mount for all, then Israelis unlikely to let go of C anytime soon.

Which is why there will need to be negotiated landswaps so there can be some form of a contiguous state for the Palestinians while maintaining security for Israel.

Sadly not going to happen is palestinians keep up with the attack, if there in no unity government between the WB and G so they can speak with one voice, if there is no recognitions and if the palestinians are unwilling to sit down and negotiate with Israel instead of making unreasonable hard lines demands to even approach a table let alone sit down and listen.

In that regard - both sides need to let go of pre-conditions. There is no difference between "preconditions for talks" and "preconditions for peace" - it's the same in the end.

 

[Coyote]

Refute the points. Wikipedia is perfectly good source in that it lists primary sources including books which aren't available on line. It also has discussion areas so you know who is doing what and it points out articles that are insufficiently sourced or bias.

Rocco did an excellent job earlier in his statement about library texts, academic materials, etc. Those are legitimate sources - books written by qualified academics, not some dipshit on the web pretending to have scanned a few anti-israel web sites and then posted their links.

And yet you never seem to provide sources.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

It can and it should.

Can Gaza and West Bank be one nation/one people? Maybe they should be negotiated with as separate entities.

(COMMENT)

A land bridge is not that difficult. And the unification of the West Bank and Gaza Strip as one-people under one-government, united economically and commercially makes for a mutually beneficial and stronger nation.

It is important that, at some point in the not too distant future, the Palestinians come to an agreement with the Israelis. Both the West Bank and Gaza Strip have much that they can capitalize on, even if, it requires the Palestinians for relinquish some territorial advantages. First and foremost of these is the development of the Levant Oil and Gas Basin. With the improved revenue stream, the Palestinians can really make some progress in terms of infrastructure develops. And, they could have an energy source that could sustain Desalinization Plants to irrigate both the West Bank and Negev for centuries to come.

Each day the Arab Palestinians continue the Jihad and Armed Struggle against the Israelis, they essentially deprive themselves of a economical and commercial potential that could make them first among the their immediate neighbors.
Assessment of Undiscovered Oil and Gas Resources of the
Levant Basin Province, Eastern Mediterranean

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Beelzebub]

Coyote, et al,

It can and it should.

Can Gaza and West Bank be one nation/one people? Maybe they should be negotiated with as separate entities.

(COMMENT)

A land bridge is not that difficult.

R

All very nice.

But its a bit like saying the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto should have made peace with the Germans, and used their unique advantages to create economic benefit for all.

 

[rhodescholar]

Discredited by whom? So you say.

Ilan Pappe One of the World s Sloppiest Historians New Republic

JSTOR An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

The Near Lynching of Prof. Benny Morris FrontPage Magazine

"I was skeptical of Morris’ “conversion” at first, but over time it seems to me to be genuine. I think his very first public break with the Bash-Israel Left took place in Berkeley in the late 90s, when I happened to be in town. Invited to speak in a church, the place was packed with the usual Berkeley jihadists and Hitlerjugend expecting from Morris a blistering demonization of Israel. Instead, Morris spent the entire talk explaining that the Middle East conflict is the fault of the Arabs, including any “refugee” problem. You can imagine the hysterical reactions in the local Berkeley drug-infested media. These days the Bay Area has its own specialized anti-Morris hate organizations, such as this one, devoted to demonizing Morris. This is all so amusing. The jihadists love citing from the old writings of Benny Morris about how Israel was somehow to blame for “Palestinian sufferings,” but refuse to listen when Morris himself repudiates those claims."

 

[Coyote]

Discredited by whom? So you say.

Ilan Pappe One of the World s Sloppiest Historians New Republic

JSTOR An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

The Near Lynching of Prof. Benny Morris FrontPage Magazine

"I was skeptical of Morris’ “conversion” at first, but over time it seems to me to be genuine. I think his very first public break with the Bash-Israel Left took place in Berkeley in the late 90s, when I happened to be in town. Invited to speak in a church, the place was packed with the usual Berkeley jihadists and Hitlerjugend expecting from Morris a blistering demonization of Israel. Instead, Morris spent the entire talk explaining that the Middle East conflict is the fault of the Arabs, including any “refugee” problem. You can imagine the hysterical reactions in the local Berkeley drug-infested media. These days the Bay Area has its own specialized anti-Morris hate organizations, such as this one, devoted to demonizing Morris. This is all so amusing. The jihadists love citing from the old writings of Benny Morris about how Israel was somehow to blame for “Palestinian sufferings,” but refuse to listen when Morris himself repudiates those claims."

umh...so FrontPage and New Republic are your scholarly and academic sources?

 

[Hossfly]

The so-called "palestinians" as the media calls them today - they were known as "arabs" before the 1960s when arafat began receiving lots of free publicity - are as artificial as margarine and rene zellweger's face. They are a social construct, a KGB-designed ploy used to counter the world-wide sympathy for the jews after the holocaust. Given the horrific suffering of the jews during WW2, the KGB and its lackey arafat realized they would need to really work hard to develop a group of people whose false narrative could be even remotely compared to the jews, so they created the notion of the "palestinians," an allegedly "native" or "indigenous" group of people who have endured a terrible situation, and with lots of dosings of lies, nonsense and falsehoods, could be placed before the cameras and called "victims."

The unfortunate truth for the jews in israel is that the worldwide media represents the major corporate interests, which have a great deal of influence on most of the major governments, and do not like the jews, so they were all too eager to embrace the notion of the romantic revolutionary (i.e., che guevera, castro, etc.) against the nascent jewish state. With decades of KGB-driven propaganda funneled into the all-too-embracing media, college indoctrination through "department chairs" purchased by wealthy arab muslims through which to promulgate the propaganda about the artificial palestinians "suffering" into younger Western minds, and the funding of fabricated think tanks ("WRMEA")/fake human rights organizations ("CAIR") also spewing the same bile, it has generated a groundswell amongst the dim, uneducated and unsuccessful of Western society a level of support for the "palestinians" that is unmatched for even the most genuinely afflicted groups of peoples.

But on the other hand, even with this mountain of funding, media outlets, and orgs aligned against it, when polls are taken in modern countries with highly educated populaces Israel still retains a wide level of support that generally dwarfs that of the "palestinians," a group so undeserving of support it is hard to compare them to any other.

I'm not sure about actual numbers...I will leave any argument there for others. What I am arguing is that Israel had a deliberate policy of forcing out the Palestinians and preventing their return.

None of your links prove anything, and many of the so-called "new historians" have been long dis-credited or recanted their earlier revisionist BS. Many arabs themselves have admitted that the deir yassin "massacre" was a manufactured story to scare the arab populace and instill anger in them, that they were told what to tell the media. There was no Israeli official policy to carry out a mass expulsion, nor is there any evidence that they tried to.

A thinking person would ask themselves: "if they had planned to ethnically cleanse the region of the arabs, why haven't they done so when they repeatedly had the opportunity?

None of your bullshit and lies prove anything bozo. There has been no discrediting of the "neo historians" there has been no recanting. The only thing that has been discredited, is the propaganda that Israel spewed and you parrot.

The IDF itself admits that mass expulsion occurred:

"...a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled “The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948”. This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. “At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.” To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which “directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration”. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to “fears” and “a crisis of confidence” affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases..."

The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

Yeah, but tomorrow some numbnuts will come back with the same old lie that the Palestinians were told to leave by the Arabs.

Consider yourself told today, Tinmore. Most Arabs were told to leave, come back during Judenrein.

 

[rhodescholar]

Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (Al-Jabhah al-Dimuqratiyah Li-Tahrir Filastin)
Fatah or Liberation Movement of Palestine (Harakat al-Tahrâr al-Filistini)
Hamas or Islamic Resistance Movement (Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyah)
Palestine Democratic Union (al-Ittihad al-Dimuqrati al-Filastini, FiDA)
Palestinian National Initiative (al-Mubadara al-Wataniya al-Filistiniyya)
Palestinian People's Party (Hizb al-Sha'b al-Filastini)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (Al-Jabhah al-sha'abiyah Li-Tahrir Filastin)

PLO Members

Fatah – Largest faction, secular, left-wing nationalist.
The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) – Second largest, radical left militant and communist
The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) – Third largest, communist
The Palestinian People's Party (PPP) – Ex-communist, Social Democratic, non-militant
The Palestine Liberation Front (PLF, Abu Abbas faction) – Minor left-wing faction
The Arab Liberation Front (ALF) – Minor faction, aligned to the Iraqi Ba'ath Party
As-Sa'iqa – Syrian-controlled Ba'athist faction
The Palestine Democratic Union (Fida) – Minor democratic socialist, 2 state solution, non militant faction
The Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (PPSF, Samir Ghawsha faction) – minor socialist faction
The Palestinian Arab Front (PAF) – minor pro-Fatah, former Iraqi Ba'athists faction

Were any of those factions, many of which were terrorist groups as opposed to being political parties with governing intent, capable of governing the west bank/gaza arabs? Almost all of the groups mentioned were guerrilla factions more committed to waging terror attacks against israel than functioning as a legitimate political party and performing such responsibilities as collecting the garbage, issuing building permits, and providing sewage systems and electricity.

 

[rhodescholar]

Which is why there will need to be negotiated landswaps so there can be some form of a contiguous state for the Palestinians while maintaining security for Israel.

I noticed you ignored my post here, not surprising:

Who Are The Palestinians Page 66 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

As a general statement about your comments, they are the typical liberal, uninformed blather about "negotiations," "refugees," and "land/borders," which have no relation to the conflict whatsoever. These are media/diplomatic fig leafs used to obscure the real issues which have driven this conflict from the beginning, and until directly addressed will do so for another 1,000 years:

1) the arab muslim intolerance of non-muslim sovereignty in the mideast. There are dozens of other groups being ethnically cleansed, oppressed and slaughtered by arab muslims across the mideast; any vestige of sovereignty attained by any of these groups leads to an assault against them by arab muslims. The only reason the Israeli conflict is in the news is twofold: 1) everyone hates the jews 2)Israel has been successful at retaining its independence and sovereignty for so long.

2) terrorist groups such as hamas, hezbollah and islamic: as long as groups like this exist, and significant enough portions of the gaza/west bank arab populations believe that violence/war/terrorism is a superior alternative to negotiations - something they have believed for 70+ years - no agreement, no peace contract, etc will make the slightest difference.

3) external dictatorial powers such as iran that use the conflict to retain their power base: as was the case 6 months after the Oslo accord was signed, iran's cancerous regime, who needs to stoke this conflict perpetually to maintain an external enemy, ordered the first suicide bombing against Israel. Every time that an agreement is close to being achieved, iran orders terrorist attacks by it proxy armies in gaza/west bank.

Bottom line, as long as arab muslims refuse to tolerate the sovereign rights of others in the mideast, there are terrorist groups in gaza/west bank, and the external terrorist regimes like iran exist, it is utterly pointless to even suggest peace agreements.

THIS IS NOT A LAND ISSUE, IT IS NOT A "REFUGEE" ISSUE, it has nothing to do with settlers, water, land, borders, etc. It is the total unacceptance of the existence of a jewish (non-muslim) entity in the mideast, and the history and facts affirm this.

 

[rhodescholar]

umh...so FrontPage and New Republic are your scholarly and academic sources?

From the poster who quotes wiki...

To the others, is "coyote" a new ID for the poster who used to use "PF Tinmore"?

 

[Coyote]

umh...so FrontPage and New Republic are your scholarly and academic sources?

From the poster who quotes wiki...

To the others, is "coyote" a new ID for the poster who used to use "PF Tinmore"?

Wiki's take on the New Historians - both pro and con, and it includes the JSTOR source. New Historians - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

It does not include FrontPage or New Republic.

 

[Coyote]

Which is why there will need to be negotiated landswaps so there can be some form of a contiguous state for the Palestinians while maintaining security for Israel.

I noticed you ignored my post here, not surprising:

Who Are The Palestinians Page 66 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

As a general statement about your comments, they are the typical liberal, uninformed blather about "negotiations," "refugees," and "land/borders," which have no relation to the conflict whatsoever. These are media/diplomatic fig leafs used to obscure the real issues which have driven this conflict from the beginning, and until directly addressed will do so for another 1,000 years:

1) the arab muslim intolerance of non-muslim sovereignty in the mideast. There are dozens of other groups being ethnically cleansed, oppressed and slaughtered by arab muslims across the mideast; any vestige of sovereignty attained by any of these groups leads to an assault against them by arab muslims. The only reason the Israeli conflict is in the news is twofold: 1) everyone hates the jews 2)Israel has been successful at retaining its independence and sovereignty for so long.

2) terrorist groups such as hamas, hezbollah and islamic: as long as groups like this exist, and significant enough portions of the gaza/west bank arab populations believe that violence/war/terrorism is a superior alternative to negotiations - something they have believed for 70+ years - no agreement, no peace contract, etc will make the slightest difference.

3) external dictatorial powers such as iran that use the conflict to retain their power base: as was the case 6 months after the Oslo accord was signed, iran's cancerous regime, who needs to stoke this conflict perpetually to maintain an external enemy, ordered the first suicide bombing against Israel. Every time that an agreement is close to being achieved, iran orders terrorist attacks by it proxy armies in gaza/west bank.

Bottom line, as long as arab muslims refuse to tolerate the sovereign rights of others in the mideast, there are terrorist groups in gaza/west bank, and the external terrorist regimes like iran exist, it is utterly pointless to even suggest peace agreements.

THIS IS NOT A LAND ISSUE, IT IS NOT A "REFUGEE" ISSUE, it has nothing to do with settlers, water, land, borders, etc. It is the total unacceptance of the existence of a jewish (non-muslim) entity in the mideast, and the history and facts affirm this.

No I didn't ignore it. There a bunch of you and one of me. I'll reply when I have time

 

[Coyote]

The so-called "palestinians" as the media calls them today - they were known as "arabs" before the 1960s when arafat began receiving lots of free publicity - are as artificial as margarine and rene zellweger's face. They are a social construct, a KGB-designed ploy used to counter the world-wide sympathy for the jews after the holocaust. Given the horrific suffering of the jews during WW2, the KGB and its lackey arafat realized they would need to really work hard to develop a group of people whose false narrative could be even remotely compared to the jews, so they created the notion of the "palestinians," an allegedly "native" or "indigenous" group of people who have endured a terrible situation, and with lots of dosings of lies, nonsense and falsehoods, could be placed before the cameras and called "victims."

The unfortunate truth for the jews in israel is that the worldwide media represents the major corporate interests, which have a great deal of influence on most of the major governments, and do not like the jews, so they were all too eager to embrace the notion of the romantic revolutionary (i.e., che guevera, castro, etc.) against the nascent jewish state. With decades of KGB-driven propaganda funneled into the all-too-embracing media, college indoctrination through "department chairs" purchased by wealthy arab muslims through which to promulgate the propaganda about the artificial palestinians "suffering" into younger Western minds, and the funding of fabricated think tanks ("WRMEA")/fake human rights organizations ("CAIR") also spewing the same bile, it has generated a groundswell amongst the dim, uneducated and unsuccessful of Western society a level of support for the "palestinians" that is unmatched for even the most genuinely afflicted groups of peoples.

But on the other hand, even with this mountain of funding, media outlets, and orgs aligned against it, when polls are taken in modern countries with highly educated populaces Israel still retains a wide level of support that generally dwarfs that of the "palestinians," a group so undeserving of support it is hard to compare them to any other.

I'm not sure about actual numbers...I will leave any argument there for others. What I am arguing is that Israel had a deliberate policy of forcing out the Palestinians and preventing their return.

None of your links prove anything, and many of the so-called "new historians" have been long dis-credited or recanted their earlier revisionist BS. Many arabs themselves have admitted that the deir yassin "massacre" was a manufactured story to scare the arab populace and instill anger in them, that they were told what to tell the media. There was no Israeli official policy to carry out a mass expulsion, nor is there any evidence that they tried to.

A thinking person would ask themselves: "if they had planned to ethnically cleanse the region of the arabs, why haven't they done so when they repeatedly had the opportunity?

None of your bullshit and lies prove anything bozo. There has been no discrediting of the "neo historians" there has been no recanting. The only thing that has been discredited, is the propaganda that Israel spewed and you parrot.

The IDF itself admits that mass expulsion occurred:

"...a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled “The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948”. This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. “At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.” To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which “directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration”. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to “fears” and “a crisis of confidence” affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases..."

The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

Yeah, but tomorrow some numbnuts will come back with the same old lie that the Palestinians were told to leave by the Arabs.

Consider yourself told today, Tinmore. Most Arabs were told to leave, come back during Judenrein.

Apparently that claim has been debunked.

 

[Beelzebub]

Which is why there will need to be negotiated landswaps so there can be some form of a contiguous state for the Palestinians while maintaining security for Israel.

I noticed you ignored my post here, not surprising:

Who Are The Palestinians Page 66 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

As a general statement about your comments, they are the typical liberal, uninformed blather about "negotiations," "refugees," and "land/borders," which have no relation to the conflict whatsoever. These are media/diplomatic fig leafs used to obscure the real issues which have driven this conflict from the beginning, and until directly addressed will do so for another 1,000 years:

1) the arab muslim intolerance of non-muslim sovereignty in the mideast. There are dozens of other groups being ethnically cleansed, oppressed and slaughtered by arab muslims across the mideast; any vestige of sovereignty attained by any of these groups leads to an assault against them by arab muslims. The only reason the Israeli conflict is in the news is twofold: 1) everyone hates the jews 2)Israel has been successful at retaining its independence and sovereignty for so long.

2) terrorist groups such as hamas, hezbollah and islamic: as long as groups like this exist, and significant enough portions of the gaza/west bank arab populations believe that violence/war/terrorism is a superior alternative to negotiations - something they have believed for 70+ years - no agreement, no peace contract, etc will make the slightest difference.

3) external dictatorial powers such as iran that use the conflict to retain their power base: as was the case 6 months after the Oslo accord was signed, iran's cancerous regime, who needs to stoke this conflict perpetually to maintain an external enemy, ordered the first suicide bombing against Israel. Every time that an agreement is close to being achieved, iran orders terrorist attacks by it proxy armies in gaza/west bank.

Bottom line, as long as arab muslims refuse to tolerate the sovereign rights of others in the mideast, there are terrorist groups in gaza/west bank, and the external terrorist regimes like iran exist, it is utterly pointless to even suggest peace agreements.

THIS IS NOT A LAND ISSUE, IT IS NOT A "REFUGEE" ISSUE, it has nothing to do with settlers, water, land, borders, etc. It is the total unacceptance of the existence of a jewish (non-muslim) entity in the mideast, and the history and facts affirm this.

No I didn't ignore it. There a bunch of you and one of me. I'll reply when I have time

I wouldn't take the premise that their posts are worthy of reply, most of the time.
Its not as if they are paying for the service.

However some at least of them are financed by Israel to filibuster& prevent any decent discussion and write unprincipled nonsense on why Israel should be allowed to get away with atrocities, theft and murder.

This particular site is interesting mostly as a showcase for their (poor) arguments and moreso, for the material and perspectives posted by the pro-decency anti Zionists here.

But it is interesting to watch the madness of Phoney, verses the "cynical realism" that Kondom tries to present, and the unjust legalese that Rocco uses to each justify graduated racist genocide.

But replies to them? Yes, if you want, have the time and feel a particular line might bear fruit of some sort. But don't expect to have any of the Israeli murderer supporters to do other than block, distract and insult. There is no Road To Damascus for them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I'm an not an expert.

• Is HAMAS (as P F Tinmore says) the "freely and fairly elected" for all of Palestine?
• If so, then what is the Government of Palestine?

You have good questions.

You are the expert. What are the answers?

(COMMENT)

This is all about the Arab Palestinian people being in the drivers seat. They have to frame a working government that is dedicated to the DOP relative to the development of Friendly relations and Co-operation among States, INCLUDING the Jewish State of Israel.

From a realist standpoint (the elephant on the table that no one really wants to address) is the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip have not real unified government. The Palestinians themselves really have not come to a conclusion as to a direction they should take. While it is clear the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement is clearly much more capable at international co-operation and has made enormous contributions in the last decade to and for the Palestinian community, HAMAS (doing the exact opposite) has captured significant community support. It remains to be seen how it plays out. But the longer it takes the Palestinians to decide, the more they will suffer economically and otherwise.

Most Respectfully,
R

You posted all of that without answering my question?

 

[Hossfly]

The so-called "palestinians" as the media calls them today - they were known as "arabs" before the 1960s when arafat began receiving lots of free publicity - are as artificial as margarine and rene zellweger's face. They are a social construct, a KGB-designed ploy used to counter the world-wide sympathy for the jews after the holocaust. Given the horrific suffering of the jews during WW2, the KGB and its lackey arafat realized they would need to really work hard to develop a group of people whose false narrative could be even remotely compared to the jews, so they created the notion of the "palestinians," an allegedly "native" or "indigenous" group of people who have endured a terrible situation, and with lots of dosings of lies, nonsense and falsehoods, could be placed before the cameras and called "victims."

The unfortunate truth for the jews in israel is that the worldwide media represents the major corporate interests, which have a great deal of influence on most of the major governments, and do not like the jews, so they were all too eager to embrace the notion of the romantic revolutionary (i.e., che guevera, castro, etc.) against the nascent jewish state. With decades of KGB-driven propaganda funneled into the all-too-embracing media, college indoctrination through "department chairs" purchased by wealthy arab muslims through which to promulgate the propaganda about the artificial palestinians "suffering" into younger Western minds, and the funding of fabricated think tanks ("WRMEA")/fake human rights organizations ("CAIR") also spewing the same bile, it has generated a groundswell amongst the dim, uneducated and unsuccessful of Western society a level of support for the "palestinians" that is unmatched for even the most genuinely afflicted groups of peoples.

But on the other hand, even with this mountain of funding, media outlets, and orgs aligned against it, when polls are taken in modern countries with highly educated populaces Israel still retains a wide level of support that generally dwarfs that of the "palestinians," a group so undeserving of support it is hard to compare them to any other.

I'm not sure about actual numbers...I will leave any argument there for others. What I am arguing is that Israel had a deliberate policy of forcing out the Palestinians and preventing their return.

None of your links prove anything, and many of the so-called "new historians" have been long dis-credited or recanted their earlier revisionist BS. Many arabs themselves have admitted that the deir yassin "massacre" was a manufactured story to scare the arab populace and instill anger in them, that they were told what to tell the media. There was no Israeli official policy to carry out a mass expulsion, nor is there any evidence that they tried to.

A thinking person would ask themselves: "if they had planned to ethnically cleanse the region of the arabs, why haven't they done so when they repeatedly had the opportunity?

None of your bullshit and lies prove anything bozo. There has been no discrediting of the "neo historians" there has been no recanting. The only thing that has been discredited, is the propaganda that Israel spewed and you parrot.

The IDF itself admits that mass expulsion occurred:

"...a report prepared by the intelligence services of the Israeli army, dated 30 June 1948 and entitled “The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948”. This document sets at 391,000 the number of Palestinians who had already left the territory that was by then in the hands of Israel, and evaluates the various factors that had prompted their decisions to leave. “At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations.” To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which “directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration”. A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to “fears” and “a crisis of confidence” affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases..."

The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

Yeah, but tomorrow some numbnuts will come back with the same old lie that the Palestinians were told to leave by the Arabs.

Consider yourself told today, Tinmore. Most Arabs were told to leave, come back during Judenrein.

Apparently that claim has been debunked.

At the time, Pathe News had newsreels preceeding every movie in America and I distinctly remember watching and hearing how the majority of Arabs were told by their leaders to leave. There were those the Jews moved out or killed but no-one in the world can debunk what I heard and remember.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, actually I did answer your question; you just did not grasp it.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I'm an not an expert.

• Is HAMAS (as P F Tinmore says) the "freely and fairly elected" for all of Palestine?
• If so, then what is the Government of Palestine?

You have good questions.

You are the expert. What are the answers?

(COMMENT)

This is all about the Arab Palestinian people being in the drivers seat. They have to frame a working government that is dedicated to the DOP relative to the development of Friendly relations and Co-operation among States, INCLUDING the Jewish State of Israel.

From a realist standpoint (the elephant on the table that no one really wants to address) is the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip have not real unified government. The Palestinians themselves really have not come to a conclusion as to a direction they should take. While it is clear the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement is clearly much more capable at international co-operation and has made enormous contributions in the last decade to and for the Palestinian community, HAMAS (doing the exact opposite) has captured significant community support. It remains to be seen how it plays out. But the longer it takes the Palestinians to decide, the more they will suffer economically and otherwise.

Most Respectfully,
R

You posted all of that without answering my question?

(COMMENT)

The conflict cannot be resolved until the Arab Palestinian:

• Forms an uncontested legitimate government.
• It must adopt the DOP Friendly relations and Co-operation among States, in place of the HAMAS Covenant, the March 2013 Policies, and the PNA Charter.
• It must adopt a policy of disbanding and disassociation from internationally recognized terrorist organization.
• It must adopt a policy for Reducing the Illicit Trafficking of Small Arms and Light Weapons (SALW) to terrorist activities operating in the State of Palestine.
  
• It must adopt a policy to refrain from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.
• It must adopt a policy to ensure the apprehension and prosecution or extradition of perpetrators of terrorist acts, in accordance with the relevant provisions of national and international law, in particular human rights law, refugee law and international humanitarian law.

This is the starting point.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, actually I did answer your question; you just did not grasp it.

P F Tinmore, et al,

I'm an not an expert.

• Is HAMAS (as P F Tinmore says) the "freely and fairly elected" for all of Palestine?
• If so, then what is the Government of Palestine?

You have good questions.

You are the expert. What are the answers?

(COMMENT)

This is all about the Arab Palestinian people being in the drivers seat. They have to frame a working government that is dedicated to the DOP relative to the development of Friendly relations and Co-operation among States, INCLUDING the Jewish State of Israel.

From a realist standpoint (the elephant on the table that no one really wants to address) is the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip have not real unified government. The Palestinians themselves really have not come to a conclusion as to a direction they should take. While it is clear the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement is clearly much more capable at international co-operation and has made enormous contributions in the last decade to and for the Palestinian community, HAMAS (doing the exact opposite) has captured significant community support. It remains to be seen how it plays out. But the longer it takes the Palestinians to decide, the more they will suffer economically and otherwise.

Most Respectfully,
R

You posted all of that without answering my question?

(COMMENT)

The conflict cannot be resolved until the Arab Palestinian:

• Forms an uncontested legitimate government.
• It must adopt the DOP Friendly relations and Co-operation among States, in place of the HAMAS Covenant, the March 2013 Policies, and the PNA Charter.
• It must adopt a policy of disbanding and disassociation from internationally recognized terrorist organization.
• It must adopt a policy for Reducing the Illicit Trafficking of Small Arms and Light Weapons (SALW) to terrorist activities operating in the State of Palestine.
  
• It must adopt a policy to refrain from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens.
• It must adopt a policy to ensure the apprehension and prosecution or extradition of perpetrators of terrorist acts, in accordance with the relevant provisions of national and international law, in particular human rights law, refugee law and international humanitarian law.

This is the starting point.

Most Respectfully,
R

"It must adopt a policy to ensure the apprehension and prosecution or extradition of perpetrators of terrorist acts, in accordance with the relevant provisions of national and international law, in particular human rights law, refugee law and international humanitarian law."

Yes, that would be what Israel would have to do as a starting point.