Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[rylah]

The last PCPSR survey of Palestinians showed that they support a return to an armed intifada that would target Jewish civilians.



This support for terror was across the board:

Support for an armed intifada is higher in the Gaza Strip (60%) than in the West Bank (51%), among the youth between the ages of 18 and 22 years (65%) compared to those whose age is 50 years or higher (55%), among holders of BA degree (55%) compared to the illiterates (44%), among men (57%) compared to women (52%), among students (63%) compared to laborers (47%), among the religious (62%) compared to the somewhat religious (49%), among those who oppose the peace process (81%) compared to those who support the peace process (41%), and among supporters of Hamas (76%) compared to supporters of Fatah (36%).

(full article online)

Most Palestinians support terror. Good luck finding that fact in the @NYTimes (Poster) ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

Are illegal settlers living on stolen land "innocent" civilians.

Yes

So Israel can steal, destroy, bomb, and shoot while the Palestinians have to sit on their hands?

Israel has created a law free zone. It is on them.

Blame the government, attack the military, but don’t murder civilians because of their government’s policies.

Israel kills civilians all the time.

Why the double standard?

Police kills civilians all the time.
Why don't You go stab a policeman's wife,
why not... double standard?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Are illegal settlers living on stolen land "innocent" civilians.

Yes

So Israel can steal, destroy, bomb, and shoot while the Palestinians have to sit on their hands?

Israel has created a law free zone. It is on them.

Blame the government, attack the military, but don’t murder civilians because of their government’s policies.

Israel kills civilians all the time.

Why the double standard?

What double standard? I oppose targeting and killing civilians regardless of who does it. Do you?

You are missing my point.

 

[Shusha]

It does and has however allowed settlers to build on privately owned land that is not theirs.

Sorry, the articles are paywalled. But, I don't need to read them. Rylah is correct. The problem being that "privately owned land" is a term which is widely thrown around, but is nothing more than smokescreens and wishful thinking. Its a legally meaningless term. And the land laws are complicated. There is very little land which is actually mulk land (privately owned). Most of Deir Jarir is mewat land (uncultivable) and therefore belongs to the State. The rest is largely miri land (land owned by the State but leased to the local village as long as that land is used for cultivation).

In other words, "but my father and his grandfather used to take the goats down that hill to graze and no one noticed or cared" does NOT make it "privately owned land".

 

[Coyote]

International law and Israeli settlements

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law

Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law. The reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions has declared the settlements illegal[15] as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[16] and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The majority of legal scholars hold the settlements to violate international law, while others have offered dissenting views supporting the Israeli position.[2]

International law and Israeli settlements - Wikipedia

-

Israel does not build on any land over which it does not have sovereignty. It is ridiculous to claim that a sovereign nation building on its own sovereign territory is a violation of international law. And its entirely shocking how easily people are fooled by this silliness.

It does and has however allowed settlers to build on privately owned land that is not theirs.


Israel says a West Bank outpost can be legalized if land was seized in good faith

Israel knowingly gave private Palestinian land to West Bank outpost

Haaretz wouldn't know private land if it hit them on the head.
And if they know there was no proof of ownership they still lie about it.

And you would support the settlers claims if it was on private land.

 

[Coyote]

It does and has however allowed settlers to build on privately owned land that is not theirs.

Sorry, the articles are paywalled. But, I don't need to read them. Rylah is correct. The problem being that "privately owned land" is a term which is widely thrown around, but is nothing more than smokescreens and wishful thinking. Its a legally meaningless term. And the land laws are complicated. There is very little land which is actually mulk land (privately owned). Most of Deir Jarir is mewat land (uncultivable) and therefore belongs to the State. The rest is largely miri land (land owned by the State but leased to the local village as long as that land is used for cultivation).

In other words, "but my father and his grandfather used to take the goats down that hill to graze and no one noticed or cared" does NOT make it "privately owned land".

There seem to be plenty of cases where even the courts have found it to be private land.

 

[Shusha]

There seem to be plenty of cases where even the courts have found it to be private land.

I don't know how you can possibly discern that from what you can learn on google. Because the media and the Palestinians tend to label it all as "privately owned land". When its not. It is very, very rare to find news articles which outline the actual legal defenses and documentation of the parties involved.

 

[rylah]

International law and Israeli settlements

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law

Numerous UN resolutions have stated that the building and existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law. The reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions has declared the settlements illegal[15] as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[16] and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The majority of legal scholars hold the settlements to violate international law, while others have offered dissenting views supporting the Israeli position.[2]

International law and Israeli settlements - Wikipedia

-

Israel does not build on any land over which it does not have sovereignty. It is ridiculous to claim that a sovereign nation building on its own sovereign territory is a violation of international law. And its entirely shocking how easily people are fooled by this silliness.

It does and has however allowed settlers to build on privately owned land that is not theirs.


Israel says a West Bank outpost can be legalized if land was seized in good faith

Israel knowingly gave private Palestinian land to West Bank outpost

Haaretz wouldn't know private land if it hit them on the head.
And if they know there was no proof of ownership they still lie about it.

And you would support the settlers claims if it was on private land.

Are all Your arguments based on baseless speculation and projections?
You believe the stories for which You pay Haaretz to invent, and care not about facts.

I suggest You read what judge Salim Joubran wrote.

 

[Coyote]

There seem to be plenty of cases where even the courts have found it to be private land.

I don't know how you can possibly discern that from what you can learn on google. Because the media and the Palestinians tend to label it all as "privately owned land". When its not. It is very, very rare to find news articles which outline the actual legal defenses and documentation of the parties involved.

And the settlers all label it as theirs.

 

[rylah]

BLOOD LIBEL: THE MYTH OF ‘PRIVATE PALESTINIAN LAND’
Because land on which most settlements are built is not agriculturally useful, Arabs did not claim ownership until recently.

Promoted by Arab propagandists and their supporters, politicians, academics, media and anti-Israel NGOs, this theory has also been adopted by Israelis, including prominent judicial figures who give it legitimacy. A poisoned narrative based on ignorance and/or misunderstanding, it is a lie.

Based on titles and deeds, land that is registered becomes private property. But what if there are no documents to prove ownership?

Land that Arabs claim as their private property was not purchased; it was state-owned land that was either given away by the sovereign power during the Ottoman, British and Jordanian occupations or was encroached and developed. Arab claims based on gifts and alleged agricultural use are not property deeds. How, then, did this confusion about “private Palestinian land” come about?

Using ownerless, uninhabited land is a universally recognized method for claiming it, unless contested. Until the modern period, land registration, especially in sparsely populated areas like the Middle East, Africa and North Africa was not widely practiced.

With the rise of nation-states and the development of bureaucracies this changed.

According to international agreements such as the San Remo Accord (1920) and the League of Nations (1922), the Mandate for Palestine was intended as a “Jewish National Home.” This anchors the rights of the Jewish people and Israeli sovereignty in law. It has never been superseded.

Administering the Mandate, Britain organized land surveys in Palestine, primarily to collect taxes and create an orderly system of land ownership and transfer. According to Dr. Dov Gavish, who wrote the only extensive study of this topic, Survey of Palestine, 1920-1948 (2005), maps were drawn based on where inhabitants were found and on verbal claims, usually by local mukhtars (chiefs) and sheikhs, not on documents or land registration.

Based on aerial photos and evidence of cultivation, villages were arbitrarily divided into 60-hectare (about 148-acre) blocks, which were then sub-divided among local peasants. Highly inaccurate, these fiscal maps nevertheless became the basis for taxation. They did not and do not reflect legal ownership.

As Gavish notes, the registration process lacked legal procedures for determining proper (actual) ownership, the investigators often had little professional training, surveyors who drew boundaries relied on inaccurate methods (such as vague geographical markers), and were hampered by constant Arab violence.

Maps held by Turkish and Jordanian governments are unavailable, and many maps held by the British Mandatory government were accidentally destroyed. The Israeli Civil (Military) Administration also has aerial maps which are used to determine land use, and surveys which are not necessarily reliable or accurate documentations of private ownership.

These questionable maps and documents, however, are used to sanction Arab claims and charge Jews with stealing “private Palestinian land.” Although these lands could have been registered, most were not. Moreover, land which was not used, or not passed on by inheritance reverts to the original owner, the state, by law.

Most of what is called “private Palestinian land” is claimed – and some registered – based on policies that legitimized squatting after the fact and by counting land as “owned” when in fact it had been leased, or simply used.

During the Mandate period, most of the land that was registered by individuals was called “Miri.” Leased, not privately owned, “Miri” land remained property of the state.

Although land that was not used for 10 years should have reverted to the state, large areas of such unused land remained under local Arab control.

Another category of ownerless land, called “waste land” (“Mewat”), is known throughout the Middle East and recognized in international law. Dr.Ya’akov Meron’s authoritative article, “Waste Land (Mewat) in Judea and Samaria,” (Boston College Int’l & Comparative Law Review, 1981) notes that this land was not included in state land and could be claimed by whoever used it, Jews or Arabs.

Because land on which most settlements are built is not agriculturally useful, Arabs did not claim ownership until recently, when anti-settlement NGOs asserted that these lands belonged to Arabs, individually and/or collectively based on hearsay, maps and documents that are grossly inaccurate and often false.

Assertions by NGOs and Arabs that land is privately owned, however, even when approved by politically motivated government and judicial officials, including the State Prosecutor’s Office and Civil Administration, are not necessarily true. Although these claims may be blindly accepted by the High Court, they are not valid until they have been examined and authenticated by lower courts. This has led to much confusion about what constitutes “private Palestinian land.”

Accusing Israeli Jews of “stealing private Palestinian land,” condemning “settlements” as “illegal,” “violations of international law” and “the occupation” are powerful weapons in the war to demonize and delegitimize Israel.

Commonly accepted and taken for granted, these charges are used to justify Arab terrorism (“resistance”) and subvert Israel’s moral right to exist. Such allegations are inaccurate and feed anti-Israel propaganda. Who needs them?

Blood libel: The myth of ‘private Palestinian land’

 

[rylah]

There seem to be plenty of cases where even the courts have found it to be private land.

I don't know how you can possibly discern that from what you can learn on google. Because the media and the Palestinians tend to label it all as "privately owned land". When its not. It is very, very rare to find news articles which outline the actual legal defenses and documentation of the parties involved.

And the settlers all label it as theirs.

"I don't have facts, but Israelis must be in the wrong" - is not an argument.

 

[Shusha]

And the settlers all label it as theirs.

So is that how you think the law should work then -- who ever labels it "theirs" wins?

My point is that calling land "yours" does not make the land "yours". One would think that you would agree with me on that simple point.

 

[Sixties Fan]

The IDF on Wednesday allowed a group of Arabs to work in the Ma’alot Yishai neighborhood in Hebron, and the latter took advantage of the opportunity to uproot a Jewish-owned vineyard in the same neighborhood, Honenu reported on Wednesday. Apparently, it will take years for the dozens of destroyed vines to recover. None of the hooligans were arrested, although the entire event was taped.

The vineyard is located in ancient Tel Hebron, near the neighborhood of Amot Yishai (Tel Rumeida), and is part of the ancient Jewish community in Hebron. The vineyard was planted about 8 years ago and is cultivated by a resident of the Jewish community of Hebron.

(full article online)

IDF Permits Arabs to Work in Hebron Jewish Neighborhood, Arabs Ravage Jewish Vineyard

 

[Hollie]

I though this was funny. Those at the top of the UNRWA welfare fraud scheme are enjoying the "do as I say, not as I do", meme.



PMW Bulletins
PA leaders’ hypocrisy: Demand Palestinians boycott Israeli products, but serve Israeli products at leaders’ meetings

PA leaders’ hypocrisy: Demand Palestinians boycott Israeli products, but serve Israeli products at leaders’ meetings - PMW Bulletins

by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik
Jan. 23, 2019
Share |Palestinian Media Watch has documented that the PA urges Palestinians to boycott Israeli products and prohibits normalization in any way with Israel.

However, when it comes to its own conduct, the PA shows its hypocrisy.

In recent days, Palestinian social media has raged over the publication of a photo revealing that PA officials enjoyed Israeli soft drinks at a meeting at the PA Ministry of Employment:

"On Monday a post from the official Facebook page of the PA Ministry of Employment regarding a meeting held in the ministry's building - during which refreshments were served that included bottles of Israeli Tapuzina juice - was shared on social media.
Following the spread of the news item and the picture, in addition to a wave of rage that it awakened, the ministry immediately removed the picture."
[Amad, independent Palestinian news website, Jan. 22, 2019]

The PA tells it people not to use Israeli

 

[Coyote]

And the settlers all label it as theirs.

So is that how you think the law should work then -- who ever labels it "theirs" wins?

My point is that calling land "yours" does not make the land "yours". One would think that you would agree with me on that simple point.

I agree, that is why thete are courts. And multiple times the courts have agreed with the Palrdtinians.

 

[Coyote]

There seem to be plenty of cases where even the courts have found it to be private land.

I don't know how you can possibly discern that from what you can learn on google. Because the media and the Palestinians tend to label it all as "privately owned land". When its not. It is very, very rare to find news articles which outline the actual legal defenses and documentation of the parties involved.

And the settlers all label it as theirs.

"I don't have facts, but Israelis must be in the wrong" - is not an argument.

According to you the Palestinians must be wrong and the media cant possibly have the facts (unless they are rightwing propoganda outlets)...

 

[watchingfromafar]

Jews from all of their holy cities.

There is nothing "holy" about the Zionist occupation of Palestine's cities. The Jews are not indigenous to the land.

Is the land of “Israel” their true ancient homeland?

Promised Land

“Moses went up Mount Nebo to the top of Pisgah, looked over the promised land of Israel spread out before him, and died, at the age of one hundred and twenty, according to Talmudic legend on 7 Adar, his 120th birthday exactly.

Moab is the historical name for a mountainous strip of land in modern-day Jordan running along the eastern shore of the Dead Sea. In ancient times, it was home to the kingdom of the Moabites, a people often in conflict with their Israelite neighbors to the west.

The Moabites were a historical people, whose existence is attested to by numerous archeological findings, most notably the Mesha Stele, which describes the Moabite victory over an unnamed son of King Omri of Israel. Their capital was Dibon, located next to the modern Jordanian town of Dhiban.”

Moab - New World Encyclopedia

And last but not least, all of the great Jewish leader were buried beyond the Jordan river, NOT in the lad falsely claimed by the Zionists today.

Genesis 25:9 His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre, in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite,

Genesis 47:30 but when I rest with my fathers, carry me out of Egypt and bury me [ Israel ] where they are buried." "I will do as you say," he said. ;

Genesis 49:31 There Abraham and his wife Sarah were buried, there Isaac and his wife Rebekah were buried, and there I buried Leah.

Genesis 50:10 And they came to the threshingfloor of Atad, which is beyond Jordan, and there they mourned with a great and very sore lamentation:

Genesis 50:13 For his sons carried him [ Israel ] into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a possession of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.

Genesis 50:14 After burying his father, Joseph returned to Egypt, together with his brothers and all the others who had gone with him to bury his father.

The Israeli's claim the land they now occupy the homeland of the Israelite's while their great leaders where buried elsewhere; Israel, Isaac, Rebekah, Abraham, Leah and Sarah were not buried in the land we now call "Israel" but in a land called Canaan which was beyond the Jordan river.

Why is there such a disconnect from biblical history and the occupied land of today?

- ?

 

[Sixties Fan]

• Palestinians say that Shaheen and Fattash are among dozens of "political detainees" who are being held in Palestinian Authority (PA) prisons and detention centers in various parts of the West Bank. According to some human rights organizations, the Palestinians held in PA prisons are often subjected to various forms of torture.
  
  
• In a letter to Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, a number of Palestinian human rights organizations recently demanded that the international agency speak out against the politically motivated arrests by the PA in the West Bank. It is highly unlikely, however, that the human rights organizations will receive any reply from the UN, whose various agencies continue to be obsessed only with Israel.
  
  
• The UN does not seem to care about human rights violations committed by the PA against its own people. These are the type of stories that evidently do not interest either the UN or the international media because they lack an anti-Israel angle. The only "abuses" they see are those that can be blamed on Israel.
  
  
• What is happening in the PA-controlled territories and prisons in the West Bank is a tiny taste of what life for the Palestinians would be like under a totalitarian regime that does not tolerate any form of criticism. In both the PA-controlled territories and Gaza, Palestinians must resort to the desperate measure of closing their mouths to food because they cannot open their mouths to demand decent treatment.
  
  (full article online)
  
  Palestinians: The 'Political Detainees' No One Talks About
  

 

[Sixties Fan]

Here's the latest article by Sydney lawyer and international affairs analyst David Singer.

He writes:


The bizarre Handover ceremony of Egypt’s Chairmanship of the Group of 77 to the “State of Palestine”for 2019 will enable this non-existent and non-member State of the United Nations to play a leading role in the 74 years old farce – “TheQuestion of Palestine and the United Nations” (PUN).

“The State of Palestine” does not meet the criteria for statehood required under the 1933 Montevideo Convention.

The Group of 77 (“the Bloc”) contains 133 of the 193 member states of the United Nations – ensuring the automatic passage of all United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) resolutions they propose.

UNGA ResolutionA/RES/73/5 – adopted on 16 October 2018 – put this illusory “State of Palestine” centre stage for PUN’s 2019 New York season – recognising it as the Bloc’s public face in all matters brought before UNGA and at meetings of representatives of other major groups.

146 countries voted for this Resolution whilst only three – Israel, the U.S. and Australia – voted against, 15 countries abstained and the remaining 29 states did not vote.

US Deputy UN Ambassador Jonathan Cohen called out the hypocrisy of the vote:
"We cannot support efforts by the Palestinians to enhance their status outside of directnegotiations. The United States does not recognize that there is a Palestinian
state.... Only U.N. member states should be entitled to speak and act on behalf of major groups of states at the United Nations."

(full article online)

Daphne Anson: David Singer: “State of Palestine” set to confront Trump at United Nations

 

[Shusha]

The Moabites were a historical people, whose existence is attested to by numerous archeological findings, most notably the Mesha Stele, which describes the Moabite victory over an unnamed son of King Omri of Israel.

Let me get this straight. You are using the Mesha Stele, as well as numerous archaeological findings, to prove the historicity of the Moabite people while concurrently denying the historical people of Israel (the Jewish people). Whose historical existence is written on the exact same stone.

Wow. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

 

[Shusha]

I agree, that is why thete are courts. And multiple times the courts have agreed with the Palrdtinians.

Yes, exactly. But that takes us back to your post #12215:

It does and has however allowed settlers to build on privately owned land that is not theirs.

Israel does not, in fact, "allow settlers to build on privately owned land that is not theirs". Israel has a robust and complicated system of land laws and courts which determine legal ownership.

Your claim is a trite little sound-byte which paints Israel, her government and especially the Jewish people who live in Area C as stealing land which doesn't belong to them. Its misleading at best, demonizing at worse. The reality is that Israel has a legal system which actively works to protect the Arab Palestinian people in Area C and their private property. And whether or not it is private property is determined by a system of laws and not anybody's "but I say so".

That is the right thing to do. It does not serve peace and reconciliation to continue to spread these false sound-bytes.