Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[rylah]

I know you can't tell the difference.

Immigrants move to a place to be a part of the fabric of that society.

Colonial settlers move to a place to take it over and pig the place for themselves.

That is no small difference.

But there is a third option. A peoples return to a place.

I'm not convinced the distinctions between the three are as clear as you would like to pretend them to be. How can you tell if people are "part of the fabric of society" or if they "pig the place"?

How would you be able to tell if people have successfully assimilated?

This is the most level headed conversation of the issues I have ever seen.

Gotta be kidding. Not one of the guests in the panel is in favor of Jewish rights, bot anti-Israel.

Q. Why do You think, ALL such discussions start at the Balfour Declaration, but not the relationship between Arabs and Jews in Palestine before that?

What do you mean? They both spoke of equal rights for all.

Equal rights...more like polished lies

Palestinians having 2 Arab states on BOTH sides of the river is equality?
A will to create a 23rd Arab state at the expense of a tiny Jewish one is equality?

 

[rylah]

Arabs entered “palestine” during the British Mandate, called “palestine” from Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, N. Africa etc. Arafat was Egyptian.

But, they’re magically “palestinians’? Amazing!

Well, it is possible that some Arabs moved from Egypt to Palestine, but they did not have any intention to ethnically cleanse Palestine from their native Semites and create an exclusive state. They just assimilated with Palestinians and their descendants call themselves Palestinians.

If Zionists behaved like other migrants to Palestine, if they respected the native Semites and assimilated with them, instead of planning an ethnic cleansing, who would mind it?

Which of the invading or settling Arab tribes assimilated with culture and language of the place?
Anywhere??
Arabs barely assimilated within themselves, they're still a tribal community underneath.Anywhere they settled, like Palestine, those divisions were kept up until these days, when Palestinian Arabs are electing a majority of tribal delegates over political ones.

Do they even marry outside of their tribal clans?

On the other hand in Israel it's natural to see people of different backgrounds joining families.
Broadly saying Jews of Yemenite background marry Jews who came from Russia and Morocco.
And when they came to Palestine they became a part of a longstanding Jewish community that was already there, at all times.They assimilated, with a 3500 years old community.

Arabs not so much, they renamed all the cities, forced their language and religion.

 

[rylah]

Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore, Art__Allm, JoelT1, et al,

No matter what you label the parties concerned, it doesn't effect the reality of today's territorial control --- or --- the political framework of the Middle East. You can call them Martians if you want.

Arabs entered “palestine” during the British Mandate, called “palestine” from Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, N. Africa etc. Arafat was Egyptian.

But, they’re magically “palestinians’? Amazing!

Well, it is possible that some Arabs moved from Egypt to Palestine, but they did not have any intention to ethnically cleanse Palestine from their native Semites and create an exclusive state. They just assimilated with Palestinians and their descendants call themselves Palestinians.

If Zionists behaved like other migrants to Palestine, if they respected the native Semites and assimilated with them, instead of planning an ethnic cleansing, who would mind it?

Thank you.

Colonial settlers are not immigrants.

(COMMENT)

It really don't matter at then end of the day, if YOU call them "Colonial Settlers" or "Immigrants." It doesn't effect. Whatever they are, you have to address their true impact; NOT what you want of them.

Most Respectfully,
R

I know you can't tell the difference.

Immigrants move to a place to be a part of the fabric of that society.

Colonial settlers move to a place to take it over and pig the place for themselves.

That is no small difference.

YES!! THANK YOU

let me quote those clear simple words:

"I know you can't tell the difference.
Immigrants move to a place to be a part of the fabric of that society.
Colonial settlers move to a place to take it over for themselves.

That is no small difference." - PF Tinmore

Tell us about assimilation when Arabs start speaking one of the Levantine languages in any other country, like they do in Israel...Hebrew. Assimilation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

• attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;
• attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;
• kidnapping or hostage taking and murder;
• causing extensive destruction to a Government or public facility, a transport system, an infrastructure facility;
• seizure of aircraft, ships or other means of public or goods transport;
• manufacture, possession, acquisition, transport, supply or use of weapons and explosives;
• participating in the activities, including by supplying information or material resources, or by funding its activities in any way, with knowledge of the fact that such participation will contribute to the criminal activities of the group.

Yes, some still trivialize the actions of these groups, saying that the Israelis have done much worse.

This defines Israel in spades. Then Israel plays a deck of terrorist cards on every piddly little thing the Palestinians do.

And, you have to remember that Israel's settler colonial project was the initial aggression in this conflict. None of this would have happened without that.

 

[Sixties Fan]

• attacks upon a person's life which may cause death;
• attacks upon the physical integrity of a person;
• kidnapping or hostage taking and murder;
• causing extensive destruction to a Government or public facility, a transport system, an infrastructure facility;
• seizure of aircraft, ships or other means of public or goods transport;
• manufacture, possession, acquisition, transport, supply or use of weapons and explosives;
• participating in the activities, including by supplying information or material resources, or by funding its activities in any way, with knowledge of the fact that such participation will contribute to the criminal activities of the group.

Yes, some still trivialize the actions of these groups, saying that the Israelis have done much worse.

This defines Israel in spades. Then Israel plays a deck of terrorist cards on every piddly little thing the Palestinians do.

And, you have to remember that Israel's settler colonial project was the initial aggression in this conflict. None of this would have happened without that.

Jews recreating their own Nation on their own ancestral homeland is always effrontery to the Muslim Arabs.

Jews existing was always an effrontery to Muslim Arabs.

Every "piddly" thing Jews did before WWI, walk, talk, breath - was always met with brutal force against the Jews. Because they were Jews.

They are still Jews. And must pay for it, according to very sick Muslims who follow Mohammad's ideology of a future Muslim world.....only.

Jews = Indigenous people of the Land of Israel
Kurds = Indigenous people of Kurdistan

Arabs = invaders, settlers who keep attacking both people and trying to destroy them and take the land all to themselves.

 

[Sixties Fan]

She isn't calling for a Palestinian state on the territories. She is saying that the state whose parliament she is a member of is illegitimate altogether and should be replaced with another Arab state.

(full article online)

Arab MK Hanin Zoabi essentially calls for Israel to be destroyed ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

 

[RoccoR]

Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

OK --- You are making two separate points here.

• Plays a deck of terrorist cards.
• Israel's settler colonial project.​

This defines Israel in spades. Then Israel plays a deck of terrorist cards on every piddly little thing the Palestinians do.

And, you have to remember that Israel's settler colonial project was the initial aggression in this conflict. None of this would have happened without that.

(COMMENT)

• Plays a deck of terrorist cards.https://unmik.unmissions.org/secretary-general-remarks-g7-working-session-terrorism

(UN SecGen's remarks on terrorism.)

√ Violent extremism is a fundamental threat to all countries and people.
√ Missiles may kill terrorists. But I am convinced that good governance is what will kill terrorism.
​

The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempt to camouflage and conceal the injustice and moral deviance of their continued struggle outside the boundaries to the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States; as well as the Disputed resolution process. The HoAP believe that they have some specially dispensation to continue the Israeli War of Independence in which the Egyptians and the Jordanians have settled by Peace Treaty.

The HoAP also believe that they have the right to take by force that territory (in fact any territory) they have determined is theirs. Even territory abandoned into the hands of the Occupying Force; well before the PLO was established, as the sole representative of the Palestinians, pressed any claim.
​

• Israel's settler colonial project.

√ Israel has never been the colonial proxy of any Colonial Power.
√ Israel has never established a colonial enclave.
√ Israel HAS NOT used an armed force to deprive the Palestinians of their right to self-determination, freedom and independence.
√ Israel HAS NOT disrupted the territorial Integrity of any Sovereign Palestinian Territory.

The HoAP believe that if they circulate the "colonialization" story long enough, everyone will believe that Israel is a colonial proxy on behalf of an invisible of a phantom power, they will garner the greater sympathy vote because of the misunderstanding of the difference between a colonial settlement and an independent colony.
​

Without regard to the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States, the HoAP have HAVE NOT attempted to seriously establish contact to begin the Dispute Resolution process.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempt to camouflage and conceal the injustice and moral deviance of their continued struggle outside the boundaries to the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States; as well as the Disputed resolution process.

Such as?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The HoAP also believe that they have the right to take by force that territory (in fact any territory) they have determined is theirs.

Only that inside their international borders.

 

[Hollie]

The HoAP also believe that they have the right to take by force that territory (in fact any territory) they have determined is theirs.

Only that inside their international borders.

What are the international borders of the waqf that Hamas has declared belongs as an entitlement to Moslems?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The HoAP believe that if they circulate the "colonialization" story long enough, everyone will believe that Israel is a colonial proxy on behalf of an invisible of a phantom power, they will garner the greater sympathy vote because of the misunderstanding of the difference between a colonial settlement and an independent colony.

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Rebab Nazzal

 

[P F Tinmore]

Raneem Nabulsi

 

[Hollie]

Gee-had performed by Arab-Moslem Death Cultists.

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[Sixties Fan]

Just by way of a quick reminder: Two close relatives of Bassem Tamimi are convicted terrorist murderers, and one of them – Bassem Tamimi’s nephew Nizar – has married his cousin Ahlam Tamimi, the convicted mastermind and facilitator of the 2001 Sbarro pizzeria bombing that killed 15 people, including 7 children, and left some 130 injured. Ahlam Tamimi has repeatedly told interviewers how proud she is of the massacre she helped perpetrate, and prominent members of the Tamimi clan have repeatedly emphasized in interviews and on social media how much admiration and love their murderous relatives enjoy.

(full article online)

Issa Amro is no "Palestinian Gandhi"

 

[RoccoR]

Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Let's see if I both in one shot; and not an evasive "yes."

The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) attempt to camouflage and conceal the injustice and moral deviance of their continued struggle outside the boundaries to the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States; as well as the Disputed resolution process.

Such as?

The HoAP also believe that they have the right to take by force that territory (in fact any territory) they have determined is theirs.

Only that inside their international borders.

(COMMENT)

The current voice that claims to speak for the Arab Palestinians is:

Logo is link → SoP/PLO-NAD

• Historic Palestine (pre-1948) encompasses all of Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and Jerusalem. In 1922, historic Palestine was placed under a British Mandate by the League of Nations.
• In 1947, the United Nations General Assembly recommended the partitioning of Palestine, against the wishes of the majority of our inhabitants. The Partition Plan allocated 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state. At the time, the Jewish population living in Palestine represented only one third of the total population and owned less than seven percent of the land.

(COMMENT)

In every piece of good propaganda, there are splinters of truth framed in a misdirection.

√ Carefully worded, it the first bullet says the pre-1948 territory was "encompasses all of Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and Jerusalem" (TRUE as far as it goes.) But then next it says "In 1922, historic Palestine was placed under a British Mandate by the League of Nations." (Close enough to the TRUTH) But is misleading to think that the Mandate consisted only of "Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and Jerusalem." This little misdirection becomes important when the discussion shits to percentages. But in point of fact Trans-Jordan was included into the Mandate.

His Britannic Majesty is the Mandatory for Transjordan to which the terms of the mandate for Palestine, with the exception of the provisions dealing with the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people, are applicable. (SOURCE: REPORT BY HIS BRITANNIC MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT ON THE ADMINISTRATION UNDER MANDATE OF PALESTINE 1924)

• During the June 1967 war, Israel militarily occupied the remaining 22 percent of historic Palestine, comprising the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, No Man’s Land, and the Gaza Strip. Only two weeks after the war’s end, Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem, applying Israeli law to the Palestinian half of the city. Within one month, Israel began building illegal settlements in the occupied State of Palestine, in direct violation of international law. The international community immediately rejected Israel’s illegal annexation of the occupied Palestinian territory and continues to do so today. Up to 2014, Israel has illegally transferred more than 600,000 settlers into the occupied State of Palestine. More than 200,000 settler of those are residing illegally in East Jerusalem.

(COMMENT)

Let's get the percentages understood here.

• Before the 1948 Independence of Israel:

≈ 77% Of the Mandate was allocated to be an Arab autonomous government of Trans-Jordan
≈ 23% The remainder of the territory yet to be allocated.​

• After the 1948 War of Independence for Israel:

≈ 12.6% of the original Mandate Territory was apportioned and claimed independent by Israel.
≈ 10.4% of the original Mandate Territory remained unallocate/unapportioned. This unallocate portion of the original Mandate included the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.​

• Since 2002, Israel has been constructing its Wall in the occupied State of Palestine, grabbing more Palestinian land in an attempt to unilaterally set its borders. Israel has de-facto annexed land that falls between the 1967 border and the Wall by severely restricting Palestinian access to these areas while at the same time facilitating Israeli access to them. In October 2003, Israel declared as “closed zones” all of the land that falls between the 1967 border and the Wall in the northern West Bank, requiring that Palestinian obtain hard-to-come-by Israeli permits to continue to live on, or otherwise access, their land in these areas.

(COMMENT)

√ "Wall in the occupied State of Palestine, grabbing more Palestinian land in an attempt to unilaterally set its borders."

⇒ The construct of the Security Barrier that would run near the “Green Line” between Israel and the West Bank was an attempt to prevent Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) from infiltrating Israel and conducting terrorist operations intentionally directed against Israeli citizens.
⇒ Any sovereign state (including Israel) has - not simply the right to protect itself, but a duty to protect its citizens from harm.
⇒ Any sovereign state (including Israel) has a right to control its borders. It is not a matter of allowing (or not allowing) Arab Palestinians access to traverse the border (in either direction). It is a matter of controlling the border to minimize the threat posed by HoAP.
⇒ The "Green Line" was not a 1967 Border between Israel and the State of Palestine. It was an Armistice Line between the forces of Israel and Jordan. While many people make reference to the former Armistice Line as a 1967 Border, that Armistice Line became meaningless in 1967 when Jordanian Forces were routed back across the Jordan River. The Armistice Line, pursuant to Article XII(2) of the General Armistice Agreement, dissolved when: "a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved" which occurred with the Treaty of Peace Between The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan And The State of Israel October 26, 1994. The treaty established the "International Boundary" between Jordan and Israel in Article 3 (and Annex I).
⇒ The West Bank and Jerusalem were abandoned into the hands of Israel (terra nullius) in August 1988, after Jordan cut all ties with the West Bank.
​

(IF -THEN STATEMENT)
√ Now the PLO-NAD contends: "The 1967 border, which is defined as the 1949 Armistice Line along with all legal modification thereto up to June 4th 1967, is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the occupied State of Palestine."

⇒ IF that is true, THEN there is no border since the Armistice Agreement says n Article XII:

2. This Agreement, having been negotiated and concluded in pursuance of the resolution of the Security Council of 16 November 1948 calling for the establishment of an armistice in order to eliminate the threat to the peace in Palestine and to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, shall remain in force until a peaceful settlement between the Parties is achieved except as provided in paragraph 3 of this article.
​

√ Now the PLO-NAD contends: "A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967."
⇒ I know that many of you heard this, over and over again. That is not what the basic prohibition says:

Emphasizing: the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

• UN Charter (1945) Article 2: Paragraph 3: “All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that peace and security, and justice are not endangered.”
• UN Charter (1945) Article 2: Paragraph 4: “All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”
• Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations (1970) Principle 1: “Every State has the duty to refrain in its international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. Such a threat or use of force constitutes a violation of international law and the Charter of the United Nations and shall never be employed as a means of settling international issues.“

Israel did not acquire any territory by force from the Arab Palestinian. Israel took effective control over the territory from the Jordanians. In 1988, Israel maintained control after Jordan abandoned the West Bank.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel did not acquire any territory by force from the Arab Palestinian. Israel took effective control over the territory from the Jordanians. In 1988, Israel maintained control after Jordan abandoned the West Bank.

The West Bank is Palestinian territory that was occupied by Jordan from 1949 to 1967.

Now, how Jordan end up occupying Palestinian land when they were not at war has always been a mystery to me.