Thst is really informative, and puts it in a way I had not thought of. I will argue though that in regards to rights and self determination many on this board do not think they should be extended to Palestinians simply because they are Arabs or fake people.
I disagree. I think everyone on Team Israel believes in self-determination for the Arabs. (Yes, even Joel).
Some notice that the Arabs who identify as Syrian, Jordanian and Palestinian don't actually recognize a distinction between these three identifications and say they are all one. Thus they self-identify as belonging to a larger group -- a group which ALREADY has self-determination in two sovereign States, PLUS all of Gaza, PLUS Areas A and B.
That is NOT the same thing as denying self-determination to Arabs or calling certain Arabs a "fake" people.
Yes it is the same. Once you label people fake you take the first step in deligitimizing them and negating their regional rights. When certain members of Team Israel do this it is coupled with " Why do Arabs need another state" or send them to Jordan. You are effectivelly negating their right to self identify as a people belonging to that region.
If we extrapolate this further -- yes, I'm going to take it to a bit of an extreme for demonstration purposes -- let's take the Arab population in and around Nazareth. In the Northern District of Israel, the population is roughly 50/50 Arab and Jewish. It is squarely and clearly in Israel. Let's imagine that we actually settle this whole conflict and divide the territory under dispute roughly along the 1949 lines and create the State of Palestine. Now. Imagine the Arab population of the Northern District says that they are Nazarenes. Not Israeli. Not Palestinian. At the same time they recognize that Syrians, Jordanians, Palestinians and Nazarenes are all the same people. They self-identify as unified. Yet the Nazarenes wish to also have self-determination.
Do you see how this whittles away the State of Israel? Do you see how this has the function (whether or not it is intentional) of denying Jewish self-determination?
So are you effectively saying the only way to have Jewish self dermination is to delegitimize the Palestinians because it sur sounds like it and it is exactly what peoe like Joel are doing. How is it any different than the many attempts some on here make to delegitimize Jews as a people from claims that an entire branch are just Europeans to denying their right to self identify?
The Palestinians have been self identifying as Palestinans for quite a few generations now. If they also identify with Syrians how is that any different then French Jews who also identify as French?
Coyote,
The Hashemite Arabs were not Jordanians. They moved into the area around WWI being made to flee their ancient homeland. But they did receive TransJordan in 1925 and that was that. It became a State in 1946 as it was ready for it via the Mandate.
The Arabs who lived in the rest of the Mandate for Palestine got leaders who would not accept any Jewish sovereignty over their own ancient homeland. Call them Arabs, Muslims, or Palestinians, the leaders refused partition into two states, one Arab, one Jewish, in 1937 and in 1947.
There have been continuous refusal for creating a Palestinian Arab State, besides Jordan since 1937.
We do say that the Palestinians are fake, because that is exactly what their leaders have said and exactly why Arafat, in Moscow with the KGB, created such a nationality.
This nationality has been intent in imposing false history via their narrative of being the most ancient people on the land. They are not.
And they are not descendants of the Philistines, or the Canaanites, or of Abraham or any other people or person the leaders have decided to use in order to demand, yes demand, equal or more rights to the land than the Jews have over it.
Jews, and Israel, are not denying the 1400 year Arab/Muslim presence on the land since the Arab invasion.
The Muslims, some of them, are denying any Jewish connection to their ancient land by telling people that the Jews are nothing but European converts with no rights to the land at all.
That has also been going on since 1948.
Judea and Samaria were to be part of the Jewish part of the Mandate especially because that is where the beginning of Judaism is.
The Hashemites held on to it, after 1948, for 19 years keeping the Jews any access to their most holy of sites, all of them in those areas.
And the Temple Mount.
Do you accept that Israel and most Jews are for the partition which Israel did accept in 1937 and 1947, no matter where the negotiated borders will eventually be?
Israel has not delegitimized the Arabs rights to have their own state.
How many videos, etc, the charters from Hamas, the PLO and Fatah, how many sermons at Mosques or teachings via school curriculum or social media, have I posted where the Muslims are intent in destroying Israel. Not living beside it.
Destroying Israel IS the intent, written, spoken and otherwise by the ARAB LEADERS. They say it all the time.
Hamas just said that they will never give up their arms. That the Hamas/Fatah recent reunion is meant to destroy Israel.
ISRAEL = living in peace in secure borders
Muslim leaders = destroy Israel
Are you reading anywhere where Hamas, PLO, Fatah and all others are really considering building an infrastructure as Israel did, and everything else that is required to be accepted as a Nation by the UN?
I check a lot of sites. Articles and videos. Arab countries are tired of what the Palestinians are doing. Not all. Then there is Iran which is funding Hamas and others to destroy Israel.
As the Arabs have said themselves, they considered themselves Syrian, and part of Greater Syria. And that is what they wanted after WWI. No Israel. No sovereign Jewish State.
Hamas has talked about destroying Israel and starting its own Caliphate.
To create a Nationality, not to create a Nation, but to destroy another.
That is what Arafat did.
That is why we need to say that the Palestinians are an invention.
And a terrible one at that, especially for those poor Arab clans who
got caught in the middle of Al-husseini's dream of another Muslim State, only. Arafat is from the same clan.
Look at what Arafat has done from 1964 until his death.
Arafat had the chance to create that State on all of the West Bank.
He did not want to be assassinated and planned the intifada even before the meetings and negotiations.
When the people can force the leaders to create their own State, there will be a Palestinian state.
When Iran can be made to not meddle in the region for their own sake and power, there will be a Palestinian State.
It is nowhere near at this time.
