Which is more important to you, human life or your guns?

[jc456]

Some innocent people may be killed

But at least we have our guns

Collateral damage

Please tell me how having me give up or forcing me to give up my firearms will prevent anyone from being killed

Those advanced nations which have banned guns have a much lower homicide rate than we do.

As a general rule, those states with laxer gun laws have higher homicide rates.

We have to be honest and admit that banning guns would result in a lower homicide rate. But that would require the repeal of the Second Amendment.

So it really is a choice between a higher homicide rate and liberty. It is completely dishonest to deny this.

and you know that is factually incorrect. been debunked in here again and again. but that is who you are, posting lies.

It is also a fact that the states which have the loosest gun laws have the highest homicide rates.

Let's see the data.

Sent from my SM-J727VPP using USMessageBoard.com mobile app

If he was a good debater he would use the Stanford Law School research. let's see what he comes back with. The university of Chicago ran the first one. John Lott was the name of the dude that was key to that report.

"Donohue: Indeed. When John Lott wrote his paper, there were just a handful of states that had adopted these permissive [right-to-carry] laws. Over time, more and more states have moved in that direction. Clearly the trend is in the direction that the National Rifle Association wants."

 

[g5000]

Some innocent people may be killed

But at least we have our guns

Collateral damage

Please tell me how having me give up or forcing me to give up my firearms will prevent anyone from being killed

Those advanced nations which have banned guns have a much lower homicide rate than we do.

As a general rule, those states with laxer gun laws have higher homicide rates.

We have to be honest and admit that banning guns would result in a lower homicide rate. But that would require the repeal of the Second Amendment.

So it really is a choice between a higher homicide rate and liberty. It is completely dishonest to deny this.

and you know that is factually incorrect. been debunked in here again and again. but that is who you are, posting lies.

Nope. It has never been debunked.

It is a fact that advanced countries which give up their guns see a drop in the homicide rate in the long term.

It is also a fact that the states which have the loosest gun laws have the highest homicide rates.

No they don't in fact Britain is seeing an INCREASE and has been for several years. And they are an ISLAND with complete control over what enters
As for France it is totally illegal to own possess or use a weapon yet terrorists get fully automatic rifles and hand guns with NO problem and commit murder there. And when they dont feel like getting a rifle? They just rent a truck.

I have provided the homicide rate figures for Great Britain, France, and other advanced nations.

They don't even come close the US homicide rate.

Stop ASSUMING. Stop stating emotionally laden ANECDOTES, and look at the FACTS.

It is a FACT our homicide rate is 530% higher than Great Britain.

It is a FACT our homicide rate is 300% higher than France.

 

[g5000]

Guns are an acceptable risk to be American. Bill of Rights ensures we shall not be disarmed

-Geaux

Nobody wants to disarm you.

Actually, that is exactly what the Left's leadership wants.

 

[jc456]

Please tell me how having me give up or forcing me to give up my firearms will prevent anyone from being killed

Those advanced nations which have banned guns have a much lower homicide rate than we do.

As a general rule, those states with laxer gun laws have higher homicide rates.

We have to be honest and admit that banning guns would result in a lower homicide rate. But that would require the repeal of the Second Amendment.

So it really is a choice between a higher homicide rate and liberty. It is completely dishonest to deny this.

and you know that is factually incorrect. been debunked in here again and again. but that is who you are, posting lies. why don't you post statistics that agree with your position? don't ask me or anyone else to debunk again. You post it this time.

can you give me your links? if i look up by state, california and illinois isn't where i'd have thought.

Top 30 Highest Murder Rate Cities in the U.S. 2017 - NeighborhoodScout - cities
List of U.S. states by homicide rate - Wikipedia - states
.Death by gun: Top 20 states with highest rates - specific to guns

kinda a mixed bag but i don't see a lot to point one way or another in relation to the laws of the state.

not for banning guns at all. that isn't going to happen and asking is only going to make ANY compromise impossible. just looking for more relevant stats.

Report: Murder Rates Remain Same in Tough Gun Law States

"Surprised by Findings The head of the center, Sarah Brady, is married to James Brady, for whom the act is named. Brady was the press secretary wounded and paralyzed in the 1981 assassination attempt on President Reagan.

As implemented in 1994, the Brady Act required licensed dealers to perform background checks and observe a five-day waiting period before selling handguns. In 1998, instant background checks replaced the waiting period requirement.

Eighteen states already met the Brady requirements in 1994.

The lead authors of the study, Georgetown University policy analyst Jens Ludwig and Philip Cook of Duke University, examined national statistics from 1985 through 1997 to compare the Brady law’s impact on crime in the 32 states that had to toughen their laws.

The authors noted that homicide and suicide rates had already begun to decline nationwide before 1994, but they assumed those rates would fall faster in “treatment states” — those that had to adopt new laws to comply."

Gun Laws vs Gun Deaths
"Firearm legislation is a much discussed issue these days, and there are many opinions that surround it. Statistics can even be unpacked to adhere to certain viewpoints on the topic. For example, the U.S. has the highest rate of gun violence when compared with Western Europe, but falls around the median when compared with countries in North and South America.

Similarly, some states have more issues with firearms than others. The South, in particular, is a consistently high-risk area for firearm violence, while California and much of the Northeast have per capita rates that pale in comparison. However, some states with strict gun laws, such as Illinois, can still have significant rates of gun deaths, while states with extremely lax gun legislation, such as Arizona, aren’t quite as high on the list as you might expect.

Knowing the facts about firearms, crime trends in the U.S., and the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of gun legislation are a vital part of staying safe and informed. Continue reading to see the relationship between gun laws and gun deaths in the U.S."

You deliberately buried the lead:

A new study finds that murder and suicide rates did not drop any faster in states that had to toughen their laws to comply with the 1994 Brady Act to regulate handguns.

The study also reports, however, that fewer people 55 and older used guns to kill themselves after the act took effect.

The study is about states which had to tighten their laws to meet the Brady Law. The Brady Law does not make the guns laws in all the states equal.

So, gee, what a surprise that those states which were LAX and which "toughened" their laws to the bare minimums of the Brady Law didn't see as great a change as tougher states.

However, nationally, the firearm homicide rate plunged after the Brady law went into effect in 1993:

suicides are not murder.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Our homicide rate is three times higher than Canada, and nearly five times higher than Australia.

Australia had a mandatory gun confiscation back in the 90s.

/-----/ Is Chicago and Detroit in Australia?
And I love how you cherry pic statistics. Australia isn't the safe have you pretend it is.
https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=20013

There were 1,658 robberies without a weapon, 213 robberies with a firearm, and 1,018 robberies with a weapon but not a firearm.

There were 14,707 vehicle thefts and 41,208 thefts from motor vehicles reported in 2015.

New South Wales recorded 72 homicides in 2015, 38 of them occurring in the greater Sydney area.

Australia has extremely restrictive firearms legislation, and the purchase, licensing, and storage of firearms is very difficult compared to U.S. standards. Although firearms are sometimes used in crimes, they are the exception rather than the rule and are more common for crimes carried out by organized criminal elements such as Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs (OMGs), Middle Eastern gangs, and drug trafficking groups. (Why don't teh gun laws stop these guys?)

 

[task0778]

So as I was saying, and just proved, an honest person will admit that confiscating all guns will cause the homicide rate to plummet.

It just requires us to repeal the Second Amendment and become an even bigger police state than we already are.

The decision is between lower homicide rates or liberty.

Everything else is bullshit.

Ok IDIOT how do you plan to confiscate firearms from criminals?

And then tell us how you're going to confiscate firearms from millions of the rest of us who aren't going to give up our firearms voluntarily.

 

[jc456]

Those advanced nations which have banned guns have a much lower homicide rate than we do.

As a general rule, those states with laxer gun laws have higher homicide rates.

We have to be honest and admit that banning guns would result in a lower homicide rate. But that would require the repeal of the Second Amendment.

So it really is a choice between a higher homicide rate and liberty. It is completely dishonest to deny this.

and you know that is factually incorrect. been debunked in here again and again. but that is who you are, posting lies. why don't you post statistics that agree with your position? don't ask me or anyone else to debunk again. You post it this time.

can you give me your links? if i look up by state, california and illinois isn't where i'd have thought.

Top 30 Highest Murder Rate Cities in the U.S. 2017 - NeighborhoodScout - cities
List of U.S. states by homicide rate - Wikipedia - states
.Death by gun: Top 20 states with highest rates - specific to guns

kinda a mixed bag but i don't see a lot to point one way or another in relation to the laws of the state.

not for banning guns at all. that isn't going to happen and asking is only going to make ANY compromise impossible. just looking for more relevant stats.

Report: Murder Rates Remain Same in Tough Gun Law States

"Surprised by Findings The head of the center, Sarah Brady, is married to James Brady, for whom the act is named. Brady was the press secretary wounded and paralyzed in the 1981 assassination attempt on President Reagan.

As implemented in 1994, the Brady Act required licensed dealers to perform background checks and observe a five-day waiting period before selling handguns. In 1998, instant background checks replaced the waiting period requirement.

Eighteen states already met the Brady requirements in 1994.

The lead authors of the study, Georgetown University policy analyst Jens Ludwig and Philip Cook of Duke University, examined national statistics from 1985 through 1997 to compare the Brady law’s impact on crime in the 32 states that had to toughen their laws.

The authors noted that homicide and suicide rates had already begun to decline nationwide before 1994, but they assumed those rates would fall faster in “treatment states” — those that had to adopt new laws to comply."

Gun Laws vs Gun Deaths
"Firearm legislation is a much discussed issue these days, and there are many opinions that surround it. Statistics can even be unpacked to adhere to certain viewpoints on the topic. For example, the U.S. has the highest rate of gun violence when compared with Western Europe, but falls around the median when compared with countries in North and South America.

Similarly, some states have more issues with firearms than others. The South, in particular, is a consistently high-risk area for firearm violence, while California and much of the Northeast have per capita rates that pale in comparison. However, some states with strict gun laws, such as Illinois, can still have significant rates of gun deaths, while states with extremely lax gun legislation, such as Arizona, aren’t quite as high on the list as you might expect.

Knowing the facts about firearms, crime trends in the U.S., and the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of gun legislation are a vital part of staying safe and informed. Continue reading to see the relationship between gun laws and gun deaths in the U.S."

You deliberately buried the lead:

A new study finds that murder and suicide rates did not drop any faster in states that had to toughen their laws to comply with the 1994 Brady Act to regulate handguns.

The study also reports, however, that fewer people 55 and older used guns to kill themselves after the act took effect.

The study is about states which had to tighten their laws to meet the Brady Law. The Brady Law does not make the guns laws in all the states equal.

So, gee, what a surprise that those states which were LAX and which "toughened" their laws to the bare minimums of the Brady Law didn't see as great a change as tougher states.

However, nationally, the firearm homicide rate plunged after the Brady law went into effect in 1993:

suicides are not murder.

Method choice, intent, and gender in completed suicide. - PubMed - NCBI

"Women who commit suicide use less violent methods, such as drugs and carbon monoxide poisoning, than do men, who more often use violent methods such as guns and hanging. Theories that attempt to explain this finding focus on gender differences in suicidal intent, socialization, emotions, interpersonal relationships, orientation and access to methods, and neurobiological factors. Data from a psychological autopsy study were used to test the theory that women who commit suicide use less violent means because they are less intent on dying. Although women were significantly less likely to use a violent method than men, there was no difference in the lethality of their suicidal intent."

 

[jc456]

Murder Rates Nationally and By State | Death Penalty Information Center

I'm not sure what I'm reading with your link. what is it you're trying to prove? I thought it was about guns. you deflecting as usual. I see.

You asked for data which proves homicide rates are higher in lax gun control states, and now you are pretending you don't konw what that link proves?

This is where your willful blindness takes effect when your ass is getting kicked.

I provided the relevant information in the post I made right after that one.

Of the top ten homicide states, the vast majority are red states with loose gun control.

by use of the firearm. which that report didn't include. so, you chose deflection rather than fact. as usual.

 

[g5000]

If a state has strict control and is right next to a state with lax gun control, then it is no problem for someone in the strict state to smuggle in guns across state lines if they have the desire to do so.

That's why I also provided the figures for nations. If we had a nationwide gun ban, our homicide rate would plummet.

This a simple, undeniable fact. And yet the tards have been dishonestly lied to about this, and they blindly parrot total nonsense that conflicts with reality.


The gun control question ultimately comes down to two realities from which we must choose.

Do we want to have a homicide rate much higher than other developed nations and greater liberty than other developed nations, or do we want less liberty and less homicides?

 

[Skull Pilot]

A couple dozen people slaughtered in a church is a small price to pay for our second amendment freedoms

And a few dozen people in Vegas, and a few dozen somewhere else next week or the week after.

But why is it that when it comes to terrorists, nothing is a small price to pay for freedoms? Why is religious freedom not a price to pay?

Some innocent people may be killed

But at least we have our guns

Collateral damage

Please tell me how having me give up or forcing me to give up my firearms will prevent anyone from being killed

Those advanced nations which have banned guns have a much lower homicide rate than we do.

As a general rule, those states with laxer gun laws have higher homicide rates.

We have to be honest and admit that banning guns would result in a lower homicide rate. But that would require the repeal of the Second Amendment.

So it really is a choice between a higher homicide rate and liberty. It is completely dishonest to deny this.

Implying that guns are the sole variable responsible is naive.

And explain to me why CA with the strictest gun laws in the country has a higher murder rate that UT , the state with the most lax gun laws in the country. If what you say about states gun laws and murder rates was true wouldn't CA have the lowest murder rate in the country?

 

[jc456]

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia

"Gun violence in the United States is a major national concern that results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country."

 

[Cellblock2429]

Freedom isn't free. Period.

If you're saying the children murdered yesterday are the "price" we must pay, then you are a horrible person and likely stupid beyond help.

/-----/ How is giving up our liberty going to stop crazy people from killing children with a gun, knife, suicide vest or rental truck?

 

[jc456]

A couple dozen people slaughtered in a church is a small price to pay for our second amendment freedoms

And a few dozen people in Vegas, and a few dozen somewhere else next week or the week after.

But why is it that when it comes to terrorists, nothing is a small price to pay for freedoms? Why is religious freedom not a price to pay?

Some innocent people may be killed

But at least we have our guns

Collateral damage

Please tell me how having me give up or forcing me to give up my firearms will prevent anyone from being killed

Those advanced nations which have banned guns have a much lower homicide rate than we do.

As a general rule, those states with laxer gun laws have higher homicide rates.

We have to be honest and admit that banning guns would result in a lower homicide rate. But that would require the repeal of the Second Amendment.

So it really is a choice between a higher homicide rate and liberty. It is completely dishonest to deny this.

Implying that guns are the sole variable responsible is naive.

And explain to me why CA with the strictest gun laws in the country has a higher murder rate that UT , the state with the most lax gun laws in the country. If what you say about states gun laws and murder rates was true wouldn't CA have the lowest murder rate in the country?

them with Illinois.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If a state has strict control and is right next to a state with lax gun control, then it is no problem for someone in the strict state to smuggle in guns across state lines if they have the desire to do so.

That's why I also provided the figures for nations. If we had nationwide gun ban, our homicide rate would plummet.

This a simple, undeniable fact. And yet the tards have been dishonestly lied to about this, and they blindly parrot total nonsense that conflicts with reality.


The gun control question ultimately comes down to two realities from which we must choose.

Do we want to have a homicide rate much higher than other developed nations and greater liberty than other developed nations, or do we want less liberty and less homicides?

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

Murder rates did not drop in countries that enacted the strict control you speak of.

 

[g5000]

The Left's ultimate aim, which not even their rubes have yet realized, is a total gun ban. A repeal of the Second Amendment.

The NRA knows this, and that is why they resist even the most common sense actions to keep guns out of the hands of whackjobs. They have forced themselves into a corner from which they emit ridiculous and dishonest claims, all in the name of preventing the ultimate goal of the Left.

They say shootings like the one in Texas are a "mental health issue", and yet when a law is proposed to keep guns out of the hands of mentally diminished or deranged people, they balk!

And they deny the reality that guns kill more people every day than ISIS-inspired whackjobs kill all year.

They deny the reality that a total gun ban would reduce all homicides in America.

The great thing about America is that the truth always ultimately wins out. But first, a lot of innocents have to die.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Murder Rates Nationally and By State | Death Penalty Information Center

Stats of the States - Homicide Mortality

CA has the strictest gun laws in the country
UT has the most lax

Which state has the higher murder rate?

 

[task0778]

The Lefties love to point to Australia, where they point to a graph that shows how firearm homicides have been reduced since 1997, but they sorta leave out one important distinction: there was a 2016 American Medical Association (AMA) study, which examined trends in firearm homicides and suicides before and after the adoption of gun control in Australia in 1996. The authors found no evidence of a statistically significant effect of gun control on the pre-existing downward trend of the firearm homicide rate.

The authors of the AMA study did find that the decline in firearm suicide rates accelerated in the wake of gun control, but concluded that “it is not possible to determine whether the change in firearm deaths can be attributed to the gun law reforms” because the “decline in total non-firearm suicide and homicide deaths were of greater magnitude.”

In other words, since non-firearm suicide rates were reduced to an even greater extent than firearm suicide rates in the wake of gun control, one cannot firmly conclude that gun control is the reason firearm suicide rates fell.

 

[jc456]

Please tell me how having me give up or forcing me to give up my firearms will prevent anyone from being killed

Those advanced nations which have banned guns have a much lower homicide rate than we do.

As a general rule, those states with laxer gun laws have higher homicide rates.

We have to be honest and admit that banning guns would result in a lower homicide rate. But that would require the repeal of the Second Amendment.

So it really is a choice between a higher homicide rate and liberty. It is completely dishonest to deny this.

and you know that is factually incorrect. been debunked in here again and again. but that is who you are, posting lies.

Nope. It has never been debunked.

It is a fact that advanced countries which give up their guns see a drop in the homicide rate in the long term.

It is also a fact that the states which have the loosest gun laws have the highest homicide rates.

No they don't in fact Britain is seeing an INCREASE and has been for several years. And they are an ISLAND with complete control over what enters
As for France it is totally illegal to own possess or use a weapon yet terrorists get fully automatic rifles and hand guns with NO problem and commit murder there. And when they dont feel like getting a rifle? They just rent a truck.

I have provided the homicide rate figures for Great Britain, France, and other advanced nations.

They don't even come close the US homicide rate.

Stop ASSUMING. Stop stating emotionally laden ANECDOTES, and look at the FACTS.

It is a FACT our homicide rate is 530% higher than Great Britain.

It is a FACT our homicide rate is 300% higher than France.

but was the cause of death is what you avoid saying. so you are misrepresenting your argument as usual.

 

[g5000]

If a state has strict control and is right next to a state with lax gun control, then it is no problem for someone in the strict state to smuggle in guns across state lines if they have the desire to do so.

That's why I also provided the figures for nations. If we had nationwide gun ban, our homicide rate would plummet.

This a simple, undeniable fact. And yet the tards have been dishonestly lied to about this, and they blindly parrot total nonsense that conflicts with reality.


The gun control question ultimately comes down to two realities from which we must choose.

Do we want to have a homicide rate much higher than other developed nations and greater liberty than other developed nations, or do we want less liberty and less homicides?

Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

Murder rates did not drop in countries that enacted the strict control you speak of.

I've seen that bullshit before.

I very specifically said that in the LONG TERM, homicide rates did drop. And even your link bears that out. They deliberately put arrows in misleading places to distract you from that fact.

But look at the numbers for the present day. Homicide rates are lower in those countries.

Australia saw a short term spike, and then their homicide rate plunged.

 

[whitehall]

Do lefties really think "life is going down the drain due to guns"? Why not call for the indictment of Obama and his A.G. for shipping over 3,000 illegal weapons to Mexican drug cartels? The climate of hatred fostered by the left is responsible for the mass shooting by James Hodgkinson and probably Stephen Paddock and this Kelley guy. Look at the targets, all right wing and easy picking.