Zone1 Where does it say in the Bible only adults can be baptized?

[forkintheroad7]

Then Jesus didn't need to die, think it through, his blood washes us white as snow, baptism is an act of obedience and saves no one

Well, you don't know about the Real Presence of Christ and how it pervades the Church HE founded, the Catholic Church. If you are baptized in His Presence, you have both the water and the Spirit given you.

The novus ordo Catholic Church recognizes non-Catholic Christian baptisms so I don't necessarily speak for the Catholic Church here, at least NOT the novus ordo, which I have many disagreements with.

All I know is that the tangible Presence of Christ abides in HIS Church and nowhere else.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Where does the Bible say that?

I'm not sure but it is there. I think it is the Gospel of John

It speaks of water baptism and compares it to Noah and the Flood.

something about "Baptism now saveth you"

 

[forkintheroad7]

True but without the knowledge of such why would they need baptism?

why all the focus on knowledge? As you know there is information and misinformation and fake information.

In the Bible God says He accomplishes things "by My Spirit"

not knowledge

 

[Frankenstein]

why all the focus on knowledge? As you know there is information and misinformation and fake information.

In the Bible God says He accomplishes things "by My Spirit"

not knowledge

Jesus says no one comes to the Father but through me, salvation comes from confession, repentance, and asking Jesus to forgive you, and save you. Following Jesus in Baptiosm is the first act of obedience for a believer. I am not Catholic so I do not know what Novus Ordo is. Are you saying that Christ is confined to the Catholic Church in your other statement, his presence abides in his church and nowhere else?

 

[Marianne]

It doesn't. I have read the Bible. I know it's a shock to hear a Catholic say that, but it's a true story. I've actually read or heard it over and over because the Catholic Church gives us scripture every day, not just on Sunday.

Anyhow, it does not say in the Bible you can't baptize infants and it is inferred that infants were indeed baptized. In Acts, it says "whole households" were baptized. Most households had infants and/or children.

Jesus said to let the children come to Him.

etc

Actually most denominational churches, Catholic and Protestant don’t really believe in baptizing babies either. The baptism of a baby is insurance because the Bible says you have to be baptized of water and of spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

The infant is baptized to cover all bases but then they are confirmed. The child must wait until an age where they confirm their baptism. I think in Catholicism it around 7 or 8. In the Lutheran church I was raised in it was seventh grade. If the church actually believed in infant baptism it wouldn’t require confirmation.

Me personally, I did have my kids baptized as babies because I wouldn’t want them to be kept out of heaven on a technicality however they are not considered a member of the Church until they get baptized again and confess their faith before the church. I personally believe this is not something that can be forced like confirmation class does. When I was confirmed I basically did it because my parents told me too not because of any great step forward of faith. This is why when I did actually accept Christ in my heart, I found it necessary to be baptized again by total submersion while confessing before a the church my faith. It was my personal decision not my parents or church’s decision.

As you’ve said it doesn’t say we can’t baptize a baby however the recorded biblical baptisms are adults. It’s a condition of the heart and being old enough to understand the seriousness of the commitment. An infant can’t fully understand that commitment to make that decision.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Why would a good god send babies to eternal hell just because they weren't baptized?

 

[forkintheroad7]

Jesus says no one comes to the Father but through me, salvation comes from confession, repentance, and asking Jesus to forgive you, and save you. Following Jesus in Baptiosm is the first act of obedience for a believer. I am not Catholic so I do not know what Novus Ordo is. Are you saying that Christ is confined to the Catholic Church in your other statement, his presence abides in his church and nowhere else?

One cannot know God without Jesus and one cannot know Jesus without the Church HE founded. There is only ONE of those and it is the Catholic Church, which goes back to the beginning. I don't know if the beginning of the Church was when Jesus was resurrected or when the Holy Spirit came upon the 12 and Mary. But what I do absolutely know is that NO other alleged Christian "church" goes back to that time period. Luther broke from the Original Church in the 16th century, then people like Zwingli broke from him, then people broke from Zwingli and so on and so forth so that today we have something like 60,000 different "christian" churches.

Then again, we do not --because there has only been ONE Church Christ founded.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Why would a good god send babies to eternal hell just because they weren't baptized?

Who said He does?

 

[forkintheroad7]

Actually most denominational churches, Catholic and Protestant don’t really believe in baptizing babies either.

This is flat out NOT true.

Catholics baptize infants so they can have the filth of original sin washed off their souls and be introduced to Christ. Then when they are older, they go through Confirmation. That is when they choose Jesus of their own accord

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Who said He does?

Jesus said that the only way to the Father is through him. Since babies haven't accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior they go to Hell when they die. Those who believe in infant baptism invented a loophole.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

This is flat out NOT true.

Catholics baptize infants so they can have the filth of original sin washed off their souls and be introduced to Christ. Then when they are older, they go through Confirmation. That is when they choose Jesus of their own accord

So what happens to babies that die without being baptized? After all, they are stained with Original Sin and shouldn't be allowed into Heaven. I know that Catholics believe in Purgatory, so presumably God sends them to Purgatory where the babies can be tortured until the stain of Original Sin is removed. Not sure if that's what you believe.

 

[forkintheroad7]

So what happens to babies that die without being baptized? After all, they are stained with Original Sin and shouldn't be allowed into Heaven. I know that Catholics believe in Purgatory, so presumably God sends them to Purgatory where the babies can be tortured until the stain of Original Sin is removed. Not sure if that's what you believe.

Yes, but why wait for certainty that that is what i believe, when an anti-Catholic presumption always seems to work?

I don't believe the Church has officially taught where unbaptized babies go.

Sorry to burst your anti-Catholic bubble

 

[LeroyDumonde]

Yes, but why wait for certainty that that is what i believe, when an anti-Catholic presumption always seems to work?

I don't believe the Church has officially taught where unbaptized babies go.

Sorry to burst your anti-Catholic bubble

It's certainly a topic Christians would like to ignore. If unbaptized babies/fetuses go to Hell then the god they worship is a monster. If they go straight to Heaven then abortion/infanticide becomes a moral imperative. Why risk the person growing up and rejecting Christ?

The only way out of this dilemma that I can see is that unbaptized children/fetuses that die are reincarnated. While there some evidence for reincarnation in the Bible, there also some against it. I don't know that any Christian sect has opted for this explanation.

 

[forkintheroad7]

It's certainly a topic Christians would like to ignore. If unbaptized babies/fetuses go to Hell then the god they worship is a monster. If they go straight to Heaven then abortion/infanticide becomes a moral imperative. Why risk the person growing up and rejecting Christ?

The only way out of this dilemma that I can see is that unbaptized children/fetuses that die are reincarnated. While there some evidence for reincarnation in the Bible, there also some against it. I don't know that any Christian sect has opted for this explanation.

I'm not going to argue a straw man.

Find out what True Catholicism is, for starters

 

[Marianne]

This is flat out NOT true.

Catholics baptize infants so they can have the filth of original sin washed off their souls and be introduced to Christ. Then when they are older, they go through Confirmation. That is when they choose Jesus of their own accord

Repentance and an outward show of faith is usually part of baptism. Babies can neither repent nor make an outward show of faith. It’s also a sign of obedience. Babies don’t know what obedience is. Jesus was baptized but he had no sin to wash away so does it wash away sin? No. The blood of Christ washes away sin. Christ is our sacrifice. He covers our sin. If baptism could wash away sin we wouldn’t have needed Jesus.

1 John 1:7

New King James Version

​

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So what’s the purpose of baptizing a baby. Accepting that you’re a follower of Christ except babies can’t do that so the adults do it for them. The child gets God Parents to help with their instruction and they confirm the commitment at confirmation.

 

[Meriweather]

So what’s the purpose of baptizing a baby.

Baptism is the Sacrament of initiation into the Body of Christ. It is a statement that the parents and family are not going to raise their child in worldly ways, the way of Adam and Eve, but in the way of God as a follower and discipleship (discipline of) Christ. It is a statement that the child will be raised in obedience to the Way of Christ (I am the way the truth and the life) rather than the path of disobedience chosen by Adam and Eve.

 

[ninja007]

One cannot know God without Jesus and one cannot know Jesus without the Church HE founded. There is only ONE of those and it is the Catholic Church, which goes back to the beginning. I don't know if the beginning of the Church was when Jesus was resurrected or when the Holy Spirit came upon the 12 and Mary. But what I do absolutely know is that NO other alleged Christian "church" goes back to that time period. Luther broke from the Original Church in the 16th century, then people like Zwingli broke from him, then people broke from Zwingli and so on and so forth so that today we have something like 60,000 different "christian" churches.

Then again, we do not --because there has only been ONE Church Christ founded.

Jesus never mentions any church when he told people how to be saved.

 

[ninja007]

RomanCatholicism Compared To Biblical Chrsitianity
written and compiled by Barbara Wilhelm, 9/01

---

The following contain excerpts and/or references from Roman Catholicism:Scripture vs. Tradition by Mike Gendron, head of "Proclaiming the Gospel”;James G. McCarthy, author of The Gospel According to Rome and thetract What You Need To Know About Roman Catholicism; and T. A. McMahonof The Berean Call. Mr. Gendron, Mr. McCarthy and Mr. McMahon are formerCatholics and present born-again Christians with ministries to Catholics.The author of the following position paper, a former Catholic of 35 yearsand a born-again Christian of 23 years, has, in recent years, taken a coursefrom the Catholic Church itself dealing with their current beliefs. Annotatedreferences to Catholic doctrine were obtained from the official Catechismof the Catholic Church and the Austin Flannery edition of VaticanCouncil II: The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents.

*There is also a section entitled Catholic Doctrinal Guidewith definitions of various Catholic terminology. The source book for theGuide was a Catholic family Bible which carries the “imprimatur” (officialauthorization) of the Roman Catholic Church.

---

INTRODUCTORY STATEMENTS

“It is important to realize that most of the clergy and lay peoplethat teach Roman Catholic doctrine are not deceiving people with maliciousintent. They are simply passing on what has been passed on to them,sincerely believing that they have the truth. Catholics must believeALL dogmas of their church or be anathema (eternally condemned and accursed)by their church. Prayer, love, compassion and understanding are neededalong with the power of the Word of God to penetrate their hearts. Patienceis needed to untangle Roman Catholics from the dogmatic web in which theyare held captive” (Roman Catholicism: Scripture vs. Tradition by Mike Gendron).

It must also be remembered that there are those in the Catholic Churchwho love the Lord and have had a genuine born-again
experience yet remain in that church out of ignorance of her doctrines.

In 2 Cor 11: 2-4 Paul states: “For I am zealous for you with agodly jealousy, for I have betrothed you to one Husband, to
present you a chaste virgin to Christ. But now I am fearful lesteven as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, so your minds
may be seduced from the simplicity of Jesus. For you seemreadily to endure it if a man comes and preaches another Jesus
than the One we preached, or if you receive a different spirit fromthe Spirit you once received, or a different gospel from the
one you received and welcomed.”

In what is called the “unity chapter”, John 17, Jesus Himself statesthat doctrinal truth is to be the primary unifying factor
between believers and the basis for sanctification: v.17 “Sanctifythem by Thy truth; Thy Word is truth.”

A CLARIFICATION OF TERMS

Before we can even start a meaningful discussion of the differencesbetween Catholicism and Biblical Christianity, it is
imperative to clarify what different words and terms mean when viewedfrom each perspective. Some of the following words
may sound the same to Bible-believing Christians as they do to Catholics– but their meanings will differ sharply. In addition,
there will be terms totally unfamiliar to Christians but which mustbe discussed because they play such an integral part in Roman
Catholic theology.

CATHOLIC DOCTRINAL GUIDE

Preface: We Catholics maintain that the Bible is not thesole source of Christ’s teaching, but that we have a double rule of
faith, namely, Bible and Tradition. Tradition is the sum of revealeddoctrine which has not been put down in Sacred Scripture
but has been handed down through legitimate pastors of the Church fromage to age.

Baptism: the sacrament of spiritual cleansing and rebirth,instituted by Jesus Christ. In baptism a human being is born again
spiritually and made capable of receiving the other sacraments.

Church Legislation: (Canons 1391, 1399 1400) the faithful arenot permitted to read vernacular translations of the Bible
which do not have the approval of the Holy See (Pope) and are not publishedunder the vigilance of the bishops. For the
Catholic, the private interpretation of the individual is regardedas worthless, and only the authoritative verdict of the
infallible (Catholic) Church, exercising in this sphere its divinecommission to teach, is valid. “If anyone believes any
scriptures beyond those which the Catholic Church has received areto be regarded as authoritative or held in esteem, let him
be anathema.”

Confession to and Absolution by a priest: (Confession is) theclear avowal of all sins committed after Baptism, made to a
priest who has the power to absolve (those sins). The priest imposesupon the penitent sinner acts of penance to make
reparation for his sins. These acts of penance may include sayingspecified amounts of “Hail Marys” and “Our Fathers”,
self-denial, or performing good works. The priest’s role in this sacramentis as representative of Christ.

Council: The assembly of the bishops (including the Bishop ofRome, the Pope) convoked to define questions of faith, morals
and discipline. (Throughout history) there have been numerous councils:Nicea (325), Trent (1545-1563), Vatican I (1869) and
Vatican II (present-day).

Dogma: When this word is applied to Catholic teaching, it refersto a formal statement of doctrine, as contained in divine
revelation, concerning faith or morals, made by the Pope as universalteacher, or by an ecumenical council in union with him.

Eucharist: From the Greek word meaning to thank, a sacramentof the New Law in which, under the appearances of bread
and wine, the Body and Blood of Christ are truly, really and substantiallypresent, as the grace-producing food of the soul. The
priest, who alone has the power given him by God to prepare the ingredientsfor this sacrament, by pronouncing the words of
consecration, changes the substance of bread and wine into Christ’sBody and Blood. The Holy Eucharist is the living
(emphasis in original) Christ: the wafer containing the body, blood,soul and divinity of Jesus Christ (1374) that is to be
worshipped, consumed and sacrificed (1378).

Expiation: The work of expiation continues through the unbloodysacrifice of the Mass for all time. Hence, for us (Catholics),
the greatest work of expiation is through the sacrifice of the Massby which God is placated.

Grace: Grace is lost through mortal sin; it is preserved andincreased through prayer and works done under the influence of
God, and by means of the sacraments duly received.

Indulgence: The means of remission of the temporal punishmentfor sins of which the guilt has been forgiven, either in the
sacrament of Penance or because of an act of perfect contrition, grantedby the competent ecclesiastical authority from the
Treasury of the Church to the living by way of absolution, to the deadby way of others prayers for them. When the guilt of a sin
is removed from the soul there always remains temporal punishment dueto sin and this temporal punishment must be removed
before a soul can enter heaven. An indulgence is received by good worksand penances and can be applied to the sins of the
living and the dead (1471-79).

The Council of Trent stated – “Since the power of conferring indulgenceshas been granted by Christ to His Church, this Holy
Synod teaches and orders that the use of indulgences is to be retainedin the Church. It also condemns under anathema those
who say they are useless or who maintain that the Church has not thepower to confer them.”

Infallibility: The belief that the pope and bishops are saidto be incapable of error when proclaiming definite doctrines
involving faith and morals.

Vatican Council I stated – “It is divinely revealed dogma that the RomanPontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra (that is, when
acting as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he, by his supremeapostolic authority, defines a doctrine touching faith or
morals, which is to be held by the whole Church) said definitions areof themselves irreformable (infallible). If anyone shall
presume to contradict this our definition, let him be anathema”.

Mortal Sin: A grave sin committed with full knowledge and consent(1857 from the Catholic Catechism). Those who die in
this state descend into hell (1035).

Penance (Also known now as the Sacrament of Reconciliation) Thesacrament of confessing sins after baptism to a priest and
asking for his forgiveness so that you are reconciled back to God (1456)

Pope: this word comes a Greek term for father. Asbishop of Rome, the pope is St. Peter’s successor and is therefore the
visible head of the Church on earth.

Purgatory: The place and state in which souls suffer for a timeafter death and are cleansed of their sins, before entering into
Heaven. Here, venial sins, which have never in this life beenremitted by an act of repentance or love or by good deeds, are
removed. The debt of temporal punishment due to grave (mortal)sins, the guilt of which with its eternal punishment has indeed
been remitted by God in the Sacrament of Penance must also be removedhere. It is of faith that the souls in Purgatory can be
helped by the prayers and sacrifices of the Faithful on earth and especiallyby the Mass.

Rosary: an expression of devotion to Mary which uses beads tocount 53 repetitious prayers to Mary, six to God the Father
and six to the Trinity.

Sacraments: The Catholic Church teaches that there are sevensacraments and each of them contain grace. The seven
sacraments are: baptism, penance, eucharist, confirmation (to receiveHoly Spirit), matrimony, holy orders (vows taken by
priests and nuns) and anointing of the sick. These are the primarymeans by which God bestows grace upon people in the
RCC. Church teaching is that the sacraments themselves are necessaryfor salvation [1129 –Catholic Catechism].

Venial Sin: a sin that merits only temporal punishment and doesnot deprive the sinner of grace or friendship with God. Venial
sins can be atoned for with acts of penance and good works.

Vicar of Christ: one of many titles claimed by the Pope. This one means representative of Christ on Earth. (end of Catholic
Doctrinal Guide section).

ADDITIONAL DEFINITIONS - FROM CHRISTIAN SOURCES

Apocrypha: 12 writings were declared inspired by the RCC andwere added to the Catholic Canon in 1546. Many of the
teachings in the apocrypha contradict the Bible – indulgences, paidmasses for the dead, magic performed by Jesus as a child,
etc.

Magesterium: comes from Latin for “Master” and refers to bishopswho are the teaching authority of the RCC. The
magesterium consists of all the bishops including the Bishop of Rome,the Pope. They are the ones who pass judgment on
doctrine, state what interpretation a Catholic may give to a scriptureverse, and they are the ones who dole out grace in partial
payments depending on the amount of good works that are done.

Treasury of the Church: (From The Gospel According to Romeby James G. McCarthy: “Another way in which the living
can help the dead is by acquiring special credits, called indulgences,that cancel out temporal punishment [1032.1471] Roman
Catholicism teaches that the Church has the power to dispense indulgencesfrom a vast reservoir of merit called the treasury of
the Church [1476-1477]…The “treasury of the Church” is the infinitevalue, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s
merits have before God…This treasury includes as well the prayers andgood works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and…the
prayers and good works of all the saints.)

Vatican II: The conference was held 1962-65 and from it camethe New Catholic Canon of Laws. After Vatican II there was
a strong ecumenical outreach to other churches, culminating in theun-Biblical agreement called “Evangelicals and Catholics
Together.”

CATHOLICS AND CHRISTIANS:ESSENTIAL DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES

The Roman Catholic Church (much like the Judaizers in the book of Galatians)upholds four fundamental tenets of the Christian
faith: the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the virgin birth, and thebodily resurrection of Jesus. However, it denies that Christ’s work
of redemption is finished and that His atonement is sufficient.

In addition, Catholic teaching opposes the doctrine most essentialto the Christian faith – the doctrine of justification by
faith alone. The RCC not only denies this doctrine, but alsocondemns anyone who believes it. The Catholic Church may say
that it believes in salvation by grace alone through faith alone inChrist alone, but the doctrines of that church deny these words.

The Roman Catholic Church says it believes in salvation by grace alone.However, their “grace” is not the free gift of
Christianity but can only be received by the individual in partialinstallments dispensed through the “magesterium” of the RCC *
(see Catholic Doctrinal Guide for definition). The RCC saysit believes in salvation through faith alone - but adds works to that.
It says it believes in salvation through Christ alone - but adds, amongother things, membership in the Catholic Church, a belief
that water baptism, even of infants, is what constitutes being born-again,and unbiblical beliefs about Mary. If doctrine is not
discussed, then Christians will never realize that the doctrines ofthe Bible are different from the doctrines the RCC adheres to,
no matter what they say to the contrary. More importantly, if we donot delineate the differences in doctrine between the
Christian Church and the Catholic Church, we do an incredible disserviceto those Catholics who believe they are born-again
yet still continue in the church of Rome. If we evade doctrinal issues,we are not giving Catholics the chance to escape from a
deception that will condemn them to eternal death. If a man believesa false gospel, he is not saved and cannot be discipled.
The discussion of doctrinal differences is truly a life – or - deathmatter.

HOLY SCRIPTURE

Bible: “Every Scripture is God-breathed – given by His inspiration– and profitable for instruction, for reproof, for correction of
error, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may becomplete, well-fitted and thoroughly equipped for every
good work” (2 Ti 3: 16-17). See also 2 Pe 1: 3-10 and 1 Cor 2:13.

Deut 4:2; Prov 30:5,6; Rev 22: 19 are just some of the warnings in theBible dealing with adding to or subtracting from God's
Holy Word. The RCC, however, does not seem to heed these warnings.As just one example, the Catholic Church does not
profess the simple Ten Commandments, eliminating the second commandmentto have no idols before God and to create no
graven images. The RCC then takes the Biblical tenth Commandmentand makes it into two instead of one. Hence, the RCC
Ten Commandments are not the Biblical Ten Commandments. The Roman CatholicChurch believes that there are more than
the 66 canonical books of the Bible, adding what they call the Apocrypha*. The Apocrypha contains descriptions of Jesus
performing magic as a child, and the Catholic beliefs in praying forthe dead and purgatory. “Purgatory is the place of suffering a
Catholic enters after death when he may need to make additional reparationfor his sins. There he pays for the temporal
punishment of sins not previously atoned for by acts of penance* orcanceled by indulgences*, special credits obtained from the
RCC by performing religious acts” (J. McCarthy: What You Need ToKnow About Roman Catholicism).

The Catholic Church also adds tradition and papal infallibility* tothe teachings of the Bible, thereby placing both above the
inerrancy of the Bible. (Mt 15:6 states: “So for the sake ofyour tradition, you have set aside the Word of God and made it null
and void.”)

(following is excerpted from Roman Catholicism: Scripture vs. Tradition by Mike Gendron):

DOCTRINE OF JESUS

JESUS, THE SAVIOR:

Bible: "He saved us not because of any righteous deeds we had done,but because of His mercy" (Titus 3:5)

Roman Catholic Church teaches that "by His death and resurrection, JesusChrist has 'opened' heaven to us" (1026 -references
are from 1994 Catholic catechism). Each person attains his own salvationby grace and good works (1477).

JESUS, THE SINLESS REDEEMER:

Bible: "For you know it was not with perishable things...that you areredeemed...but with the precious blood of Christ" (1 Pe
1:17-18).

RCC teaches that Mary is the sinless co-Redeemer. "Withouta single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person
and work of her son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemptionwith Him...being obedient, she became the cause
of salvation for herself and for the whole human race" (494)

JESUS, OUR ADVOCATE AND ONLY MEDIATOR:

Bible: "God is one, one also is the mediator between God and men, theman Christ Jesus" (1 Ti 2:5, 1 Jn 2:1)

RCC teaches that Mary "did not lay aside her saving office but by hermanifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. She is Advocate…and Mediatrix” (969)

JESUS, HEAD OF THE CHURCH:

Bible: "He has put all things under Christ's feet and made Him, thusexalted, head of the Church" (Eph 1: 22,23).

RCC teaches that the Pope, "by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ,and as pastor of the entire church has full, supreme and
universal power over the whole church, a power which he can alwaysexercise unhindered" (882). He exercises infallibility
when "he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faithor morals" (891)

JESUS, THE SOON-COMING KING:

Bible: "This same Jesus, who has been taken away from you into heavenwill come back in the same way you have seen Him go
unto heaven" (Acts 1:11).

RCC denies this by teaching that Jesus returns daily to the altars ofCatholic churches to worshipped: "The body and
blood...soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ...is truly, reallyand substantially contained" in the Eucharist* (1374-78).

CHRIST’S WORK

JESUS EXPIATES OUR SIN:

Bible: "Through His blood, God made Him the means of expiation for allwho believe" (Ro 3:25)

RCC teaches that sins are expiated in purgatory through a "cleansingfire" and that we "must strive to accept this temporal
punishment of sin as a grace" (1030,31; 1472-75).

(It is also noteworthy that the Word of God consistently affirms thatsins are expiated by blood and not by fire. Biblically, the
“fires of purgatory” cannot purge or atone for sin.)

JESUS FINISHED THE WORK OF REDEMPTION:

Bible: "By one offering He has forever perfected those who are beingsanctified" (Heb 10:14). "Unlike the other high priests,
He does not need to offer daily sacrifices" (Heb 7:27,28).

RCC denies that Jesus' work on the cross is finished. "The sacrificeof Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single
sacrifice...the same Christ who offered Himself once in a bloody manneron the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an
unbloody manner in the Eucharist"(1367). "Every time this mysteryis celebrated the work of our redemption is carried on"
(1405). The sacrifice "is offered in reparation for the sins of theliving and the dead" (1414). Over and over again in Roman
Catholicism, Jesus dies on the cross as the eternal victim.

HIS LIFE, DEATH AND RESURRECTION PROVIDED THE ONLY WAY TO BE SAVED:

Bible: "There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no othername in the whole world given to men by which we are to be
saved" (Acts 4:12).

RCC denies this by claiming the Catholic Church "is necessary for salvation"(846).

HIS SHED BLOOD IS THE ONLY REMISSION FOR SIN:

Bible: "Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin"(Heb 9:22). "Since these sins have been forgiven, there is
no further offering for sin" (Heb 10:18).

RCC teaches that "an indulgence is a remission before God of the temporalpunishment due to sins whose guilt has already been
forgiven which...may be applied to the living or the dead" (1471)

This is absolutely contrary to Scripture because it undermines thetotal cleansing of Jesus' blood. By stating that indulgences
are needed to further cleanse the sinner, indulgences make man'sactions of higher worth than Jesus' blood.

JESUS CLEANSES US FROM SIN:

Bible: “When He [Jesus] had cleansed us from our sins, He took His seatat the right hand of the Majesty in heaven” (Heb
1:3). “Christ…presents you to God holy, free of reproach andblame” (Col 1:22)

RCC teaches that “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but stillimperfectly purified…undergo purification, so as to
achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (1030)

DOCTRINE OF SALVATION

SALVATION IS PROCLAIMED IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST:

Bible: "It is the power of God leading everyone who believes in it tosalvation" (Ro 1:16). It relates Jesus' life, death and
resurrection according to the Scriptures (1 Cor 15: 1-4).

RCC preaches a different gospel by demanding additional requirementsfor salvation including: the sacraments (1129),
meritorious masses (1405), church membership (846), purgatory (1030),indulgences *(1498), and baptism (1256).

SALVATION IS OF GOD, NOT MAN:

Bible: “When you heard the glad tidings of salvation, the word of truth,and believed in it, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit
(Eph 1:13). Those “who believe in His name were begotten not by…man’swilling it, but by God” (Jn 1:13).

RCC teaches “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration…without whichno one can enter the kingdom of God” (1213, 1215).

SALVATION IS THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS:

Bible: "Salvation is yours through faith. This is not of your own doing,it is God's gift, neither is it a reward for anything you have
accomplished, so let no one pride himself on it" (Eph 2: 8,9). "Yet in no way can a man redeem himself, nor pay his own
ransom to God. Too high is the price to redeem one's life; hewould never have enough" (Ps 49: 7,8).

RCC teaches salvation through faith plus works. They say people canobtain their own salvation and at the same time
cooperate in saving their brothers through good works and indulgences(1477, 1479).

(The Lindsell Bible Commentary’s introduction to the book of Galatiansstates: “ When you mix faith with works, the error is of
such magnitude that it will result in the loss of the true gospel.”)

SALVATION IS BY GRACE, NOT MERIT:

Bible: "All men are now undeservedly justified by the gift of God" (Ro3:24). "…But if it is by grace it is no longer conditioned
on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would nolonger be grace – it would be meaningless.”(Ro 11:6).

RCC denies justifying grace is undeserved. "We can merit for ourselvesand for others all the graces needed to attain eternal
life" (2027).

(RCC source used is Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994.)
(excerpt ended)

NONE OF THESE ARE SECONDARY ISSUES. ON THE CONTRARY,THEY ARE THEPRIMARY
DOCTRINES OF OUR FAITH.

While there are a great many other topics that can be discussed in relationto the Catholic faith, only three others will be
attempted at this time. The first topic is the difference betweenChristian Communion and the Catholic Eucharist; the next, the
difference between the Biblical Mary and the Catholic Mary. Thelast topic is the mistaken belief that Vatican II significantly
changed the tenets of Catholicism.

CHRISTIAN COMMUNION AS OPPOSED TO CATHOLIC EUCHARIST

There is a very real difference between the Communion and the Lord'sSupper as observed by born-again believers as
opposed to the Eucharist and the Mass* as observed by Catholics. Born-again believers contend that the bread and wine are
the elements and that Communion and the Lord's Supper are done in remembranceof Jesus' "once for all" sacrifice. Catholics,
on the other hand, believe that the Eucharist offered at the Mass isthe actual flesh and blood of Jesus. This, they state,is
done by means of transubstantiation, the Catholic doctrine whereinthe bread and wine actually become the real body and
blood of Jesus.

The Council of Trent, 13th Session, Canon I stated: “(the Eucharist)is truly, really and substantially the body and blood
together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.” CatholicMass is the “unbloody sacrifice” of Jesus repeated over
and over. Yet the Bible repeatedly states that “without the sheddingof blood there is no remission of sin.” The word for the
wafer that is offered at Catholic Mass is “hostia” which means victim. Hence, Jesus as the eternal victim is repeatedly being
sacrificed at each Catholic Mass.

Of the Mass, the Council of Trent also stated (Session 22, Chap.2):“In this divine sacrifice the same Christ is present and
immolated (sacrificed) in an unbloody manner on the altar ofthe Cross…only the manner of offering is different.” Heb 9: 22
and 10:10-17 totally contradict these Catholic doctrines. Therefore,how can Biblical Communion be equated with the Catholic
Eucharist and Mass?

Also, instead of centering worship around the Person of the LordJesus and His redeeming work on the cross, it is the Catholic
Church that makes the wafer of bread – the Eucharist – the “centerpieceof worship” and actually says, in its catechism, that
their communion is the “sacrament of redemption” (1994 Catechismof the Catholic Church section 1846) and the place
where “ the work of our redemption is accomplished” (Vatican IIAustin Flannery p.1). When the priest holds the wafer and
presents it to the congregation saying “Behold the Lamb of God”, hetruly means that that wafer is the real Lamb of God, Jesus
Christ. The Catholic Church emphasizes this adoration of the wafer– not the Person of Jesus – during the feast called Corpus
Christi, a Latin term meaning “body of Christ.” On that day aprocession of Catholics follow the priest in adoration of the
Communion wafer which is carried in a vessel called a “monstrance.”

In simple terms that means that Roman Catholicism believes that redemptioncomes through ingesting the Eucharist –the wafer
which they say is Jesus – not through Jesus’ work on the cross. Hence,Catholic Communion is not Biblical Communion: they
may use the same words, but the meaning is totally different.

MARY OF THE BIBLE AND THE MARY OF CATHOLICISM

(the following information is excerpted from T.A. McMahon’s articleentitled Mary Who?):

“…The only trustworthy account of Mary is found in the Scriptures whereinformation is presented by those who knew her
personally and, more importantly, whose writings were under the inspirationof the Holy Spirit. Fewer than 90 Bible verses
address the life of Mary. In them we find a wonderful humbleservant of the Lord who rejoices in Him as her Savior (Lk 1:
47)… Mary’s ministry was simply the birth and nurturing of the childJesus. Once He reached adulthood, she played no
influential part in His earthly service. It’s at the weddingfeast of Cana, which began the public ministry of Jesus, that her last
words are recorded. Fittingly, she tells the servants, ‘ WhatsoeverHe saith unto you, do it’ (Jn 2:5)… Mary then fades into the
background.

Search the Scriptures as you will and you will find no leadership rolefor Mary among the Apostles. She taught no doctrine.
We never hear of the Apostles seeking her out for counsel. Otherthan the gospels, Mary is mentioned only once in the New
Testament, where the Book of Acts tells us of her simple participationin a prayer meeting along with her sons. The teaching
that Mary was a perpetual virgin is contradicted by many verses (Mt12:46; Mk 6:3; Jn 7: 3,5; 1Cor 9:5; Gal 1:19; Ps
69:8,etc.)…The Apostle Peter, a contemporary of Mary and regarded byCatholics as the first pope, wrote nothing about her.
The Apostle Paul…made no mention of the alleged importance of devotionsor reparations to Mary…The Apostle John, who
wrote the last book of the Bible and was given the care of Mary byJesus Himself, says nothing about venerating her…Although
mankind is being drawn into every kind of spiritual deception in thelast days before the return of Jesus, it is especially sad that
the real mother of Jesus, the remarkable ‘handmaiden of the Lord’ (Lk1:38) is so terribly misrepresented, thereby drawing
millions away from her Son…

(Conversely), the Mary of Catholicism was immaculately conceived, theMother of God, a perpetual virgin, Mediatrix between
God and man, and the Queen of Heaven…The ‘Mary’ who spoke to FatherGobbi, the founder of the Marian Movement of
more than 100,000 priests, declared, ‘Each of my statues is a signof a presence of mine and reminds you of your heavenly
Mother. Therefore it must be honored and put in places of greaterveneration…’

Consider Our Lady of Fatima: (she said) ‘Say the Rosary every day toobtain peace for the world…God wishes to establish in
the world the devotion to My immaculate heart. If people do whatI tell you, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.’

This is not the humble and submissive Mary of the Bible. The rosaryinvokes prayers to Mary ten times for every one for the
Lord; Jesus is the Prince of Peace; only Christ’s once-for-all sacrificesaves souls from hell; neither is Mary’s heart immaculate,
nor are we to be spiritually devoted to anyone other than our Lordand Savior” (excerpts ended).

The Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is NOT the Christiandoctrine which states that Jesus was born without
sin. Rather, it states that Mary was born free of any sin: “O, Mary,conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to
thee.” The prayer specifically presents her as intercessor. In addition,Catholics believe that as a special privilege Mary was
preserved from all sin, even venial sin*. Catholics also hold to thedoctrine that Mary, after her death, was “assumpted” bodily
into heaven and, therefore, never saw corruption.. Both the Feast ofthe Assumption and the Immaculate Conception are
“holydays of obligation” in the Catholic Church and require Catholicsto attend a Mass on those days under penalty of
“mortal”* sin.

One of the titles the Catholic Church gives Mary is “Queen of Heaven.”In chapters 7:18 and 44:19 Jeremiah actually speaks of
the people of Israel making offerings to a “queen of heaven.” Yet asimple reading of the chapters shows that God was
exceedingly angry because of this heathen worship.

There is also a mixing of what is Biblical and what is Catholic in the“Hail Mary,” the prayer used repeatedly in the rosary. It
states: “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessedart thou among women…” This is actually found in Luke 1:28.
However, the rest of the prayer is not Biblical. It states “…HolyMary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the
hour of our death. Amen.” Mary is “holy” only as she is holyin Jesus. She was not the mother of God, but of the child Jesus -
stating it as the Catholic Church does confers upon her a title thatdenotes her superiority over Jesus. She cannot pray for us
sinners because she herself was a sinner, and because only Jesus “everliveth to make intercession for us” (Heb 7:25).

 

[The Irish Ram]

Why would a good god send babies to eternal hell just because they weren't baptized?

He doesn't. They go straight up. Dogma says they need to baptize babies...

 

[Frankenstein]

One cannot know God without Jesus and one cannot know Jesus without the Church HE founded. There is only ONE of those and it is the Catholic Church, which goes back to the beginning. I don't know if the beginning of the Church was when Jesus was resurrected or when the Holy Spirit came upon the 12 and Mary. But what I do absolutely know is that NO other alleged Christian "church" goes back to that time period. Luther broke from the Original Church in the 16th century, then people like Zwingli broke from him, then people broke from Zwingli and so on and so forth so that today we have something like 60,000 different "christian" churches.

Then again, we do not --because there has only been ONE Church Christ founded.

1. Jesus left no organization or institution outside of his disciples.

2. Jesus, Joseph and Mary were Jews; the apostles, disciples and early Jesus followers were Jews.

3. Based on Jesus’ words, “I am the way, and the truth and the life … John 14:6, these early Jesus followers were known as the Way

4. These, convinced Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, continued to function much like a reform sect within Judaism. There was religious and cultural diversity among first-century Jews in the ancient Near East. Under the umbrella of Judaism were: Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots – and like these the Way was just another expression of Judaism.

5. The early Jesus followers continued to go to synagogue, follow Mosaic Law and Temple traditions; they observed the Jewish holy days, practice circumcision and followed kosher dietary laws. Keeping the Sabbath, the Way met in each other’s homes on Sunday aka the Lord’s Day (aka Sunday).

The early Jesus followers would look and operate nothing like Roman Catholicism; in fact it would be much closer to what we’d call Messianic Judaism. The absolute last thing the apostles would have considered would be patterning their leadership structure to look like that of Rome – who had just murdered Jesus and was systematically martyring their family and friends.