Zone1 Where does atheist morality come from?

[Meriweather]

Is it moral to say that homosexuals are an abomination and deserve death?
Is it immoral to condone slavery by telling the people how to beat their slaves?
Is it immoral to say that If anyone does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life, they cannot follow someone?
Is it immoral to say that anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property?
Is it immoral to tell slaves to not let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so?
Is it immoral to tell a female that her desire will be for her husband, and he will rule over you?
Is it immoral to kill an entire population including animals and children? Is it immoral to threaten a human with eternal punishment for a nonbelief?

As you know, I am not Jewish. I can only share with you what I have learned in studying Judaism. Perhaps someone of the the Jewish faith can help me out. I'll take them one at a time, as succinctly as I am able.

Is it moral to say that homosexuals are an abomination and deserve death?

There have been two thoughts (at least) on this. One is that we are a spiritual being living briefly in a physical body in a physical world. We were made to fight the worldly/physical desires within us. The harder the battle given some should build in the rest an ever greater humility and humbleness.

The second is that when this verse was written, the world viewed homosexuality as a choice, or someone wishing to openly defy God, or used in a rite to pagan gods. Even today, some heterosexuals choose homosexual behavior.

Let's focus on those where homosexuality is not a choice, it is not a matter of free will, but a matter of who a person is. That sends us into a whole other portion of Hebrew law. The law says one must do this or that, but if one is incapable, they are excused from this Law. The goes for laws that prohibit people from doing something (say fasting). If one cannot fast, one is excused from following that law.

Following this part of Jewish Law, take a look at homosexuality. By Jewish law, homosexual acts are forbidden for heterosexuals because it is a freely chosen act. However, for homosexuals, their sexual expression with those of the same sex is innate--it is how they express their sexuality. This seems to fall under the category where one cannot do what the Law commands, and sex acts being built into human beings, how can otherwise forbidden sex acts for heterosexuals be also forbidden to homosexuals?

Anyway....When one is able to freely choose, one is directed to opt for divine law. When one is not able to choose, Hebrew law covers this as well. Whether most Jews today feel Thought One is better for people of the Jewish faith, or if most believe Thought Two is best, I have no idea.

My point to you, Paradoxical#1 , is that attempts to paint the entire Bible with a single verse, most often fails. The Bible--and Jewish Law--has always addressed exceptions.

 

[Meriweather]

Is it immoral to condone slavery by telling the people how to beat their slaves?

In the original Hebrew this comes across more clearly that when it comes to punishing/disciplining a servant, it should not be overdone.

 

[Meriweather]

Is it immoral to say that If anyone does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life, they cannot follow someone?

In the Hebrew/Aramaic use of the word translated as "hate" in the English language, it means to love less, not to have first priority. The First Commandment on how to live a great life is by putting God first. Jesus says the same thing. Put God first. Also, if one is going to become a disciple of Jesus, one must give up the things in life that has one concluding, "Well, I can't follow Jesus today, but perhaps tomorrow or next week." Remember St. Augustine who did pray to become chaste--but not just yet. In the end, he did choose Jesus and did give up his life of lust.

 

[Meriweather]

Is it immoral to say that anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property?

Yes, punishment must occur when a servant dies. That is moral.

What are you thinking should happen when the person who was beaten recovers?

 

[Cougarbear]

Yet in real life, it is censored.

Moral agency is never censored. You simply use it when you abuse it.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Morals come from evolution. No one wants to be killed, maimed, robbed, raped. While some people want to do those things, most don't. Laws are passed by humans because humans know that without them, humans do not lead the best lives they can and ought to. This lie that morals come from "God" needs to stop.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

As you know, I am not Jewish. I can only share with you what I have learned in studying Judaism. Perhaps someone of the the Jewish faith can help me out. I'll take them one at a time, as succinctly as I am able.


There have been two thoughts (at least) on this. One is that we are a spiritual being living briefly in a physical body in a physical world. We were made to fight the worldly/physical desires within us. The harder the battle given some should build in the rest an ever greater humility and humbleness.

The second is that when this verse was written, the world viewed homosexuality as a choice, or someone wishing to openly defy God, or used in a rite to pagan gods. Even today, some heterosexuals choose homosexual behavior.

Let's focus on those where homosexuality is not a choice, it is not a matter of free will, but a matter of who a person is. That sends us into a whole other portion of Hebrew law. The law says one must do this or that, but if one is incapable, they are excused from this Law. The goes for laws that prohibit people from doing something (say fasting). If one cannot fast, one is excused from following that law.

Following this part of Jewish Law, take a look at homosexuality. By Jewish law, homosexual acts are forbidden for heterosexuals because it is a freely chosen act. However, for homosexuals, their sexual expression with those of the same sex is innate--it is how they express their sexuality. This seems to fall under the category where one cannot do what the Law commands, and sex acts being built into human beings, how can otherwise forbidden sex acts for heterosexuals be also forbidden to homosexuals?

Anyway....When one is able to freely choose, one is directed to opt for divine law. When one is not able to choose, Hebrew law covers this as well. Whether most Jews today feel Thought One is better for people of the Jewish faith, or if most believe Thought Two is best, I have no idea.

My point to you, Paradoxical#1 , is that attempts to paint the entire Bible with a single verse, most often fails. The Bible--and Jewish Law--has always addressed exceptions.

Once again, I don't give a whit what your bible says.It is full of horror and evil acts by your god which are excused because it is "god" saying it. I also get annoyed at those who say that the bible was written for that day and time. Of COURSE, it was, which means it was human-written because that's all they knew.

There is not one sentence, one dot, one iota that anyone can point to in the bible that could not have been written by a human. Not one period.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

In the Hebrew/Aramaic use of the word translated as "hate" in the English language, it means to love less, not to have first priority. The First Commandment on how to live a great life is by putting God first. Jesus says the same thing. Put God first. Also, if one is going to become a disciple of Jesus, one must give up the things in life that has one concluding, "Well, I can't follow Jesus today, but perhaps tomorrow or next week." Remember St. Augustine who did pray to become chaste--but not just yet. In the end, he did choose Jesus and did give up his life of lust.

David Koresh said the same thing. So do all cult leaders.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Yes, punishment must occur when a servant dies. That is moral.

What are you thinking should happen when the person who was beaten recovers?

Are you seriously defending the beating of slaves??

 

[cnm]

How can an atheist claim to have morals, other than by stealing morals from other sources such as the Bible, or the law of the state or nation in which they live?

Morals are community norms. This is shown by the way morals vary with communities. Morals are shown to be valid when they assist the community to survive and prosper.

 

[rightwinger]

How can an atheist claim to have morals, other than by stealing morals from other sources such as the Bible, or the law of the state or nation in which they live?

For that matter, there is no way to know what every individual's morals are or where they come from, so how do we know that an atheist has morals to begin with just because they say they do?

Golden rule works pretty well

 

[Meriweather]

Once again, I don't give a whit what your bible says.It is full of horror and evil acts by your god which are excused because it is "god" saying it. I also get annoyed at those who say that the bible was written for that day and time. Of COURSE, it was, which means it was human-written because that's all they knew.

There is not one sentence, one dot, one iota that anyone can point to in the bible that could not have been written by a human. Not one period.

Yes, it is obvious you "don't give a whit about what the Bible says" as it is a constant practice to pull a verse here, a verse there to stitch the Bible into something to use for personal hatred. There is no purpose to opening any book, reading a paragraph here and a paragraph there thinking that tells the complete story. Reading one law is not the same as reading the law in its entirety.

The Bible was not written by "a human". It was written by many humans, and most likely edited by several others, and definitely translated by a number more.

 

[Meriweather]

David Koresh said the same thing. So do all cult leaders.

Learn Hebrew. It has been the same thing down through the ages for an entire people.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Yes, it is obvious you "don't give a whit about what the Bible says" as it is a constant practice to pull a verse here, a verse there to stitch the Bible into something to use for personal hatred. There is no purpose to opening any book, reading a paragraph here and a paragraph there thinking that tells the complete story. Reading one law is not the same as reading the law in its entirety.

The Bible was not written by "a human". It was written by many humans, and most likely edited by several others, and definitely translated by a number more.

Your last sentence is true. To suggest that many UNKNOWN humans wrote based on inspiration from your bible god is the height of hubris when you cannot point to one sentence being a bible scholar that could not have been written by any human of that day and time.

"Oh, slavery was a thing in that day and time, and god was teaching that tribe and was compassionate when he said if you beat your slave(s) and they didn't die, that was cool."

 

[Meriweather]

Are you seriously defending the beating of slaves??

Why do you ask? It's rather off topic. Perhaps stay focused.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Learn Hebrew. It has been the same thing down through the ages for an entire people.

From my decades of debating Christians, Catholics, Calvinists, and idiotic leftists I know how indoctrination works and how humans are trapped in beliefs that they imagine are facts. You have been told over and over and over again that the bible is the word of god, without evidence, by elders. You seek out confirmation of that and ignore anything that contradicts your belief system.

When you get cornered you play your trump card, which is "learn Hebrew." Why in hell would I need to learn Hebrew to know that your god condoned slavery, said that homosexuals are an abomination and deserve death, and said females were not as worthy as men?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Why do you ask? It's rather off topic. Perhaps stay focused.

You don't like the truth, do you? Is slavery moral or immoral? Was it moral at the time your god "inspired" the bible? If this god is moral, he could not have inspired a timeless document where he said "Slavery is immoral and like murder, I command all humans not to engage in it for it offends me. Thus Sayeth your Lord."

 

[Meriweather]

Your last sentence is true. To suggest that many UNKNOWN humans wrote based on inspiration from your bible god is the height of hubris when you cannot point to one sentence being a bible scholar that could not have been written by any human of that day and time.

Correct, Captain Obvious.

"Oh, slavery was a thing in that day and time, and god was teaching that tribe and was compassionate when he said if you beat your slave(s) and they didn't die, that was cool."

Amazing, isn't it, how humanity has grown from beating people who work for them into never laying a hand on them. Now, if we only have it in us to bring that same philosophy to our wars. I'm guessing that may take a few thousand years more.

 

[Meriweather]

You don't like the truth, do you? Is slavery moral or immoral? Was it moral at the time your god "inspired" the bible? If this god is moral, he could not have inspired a timeless document where he said "Slavery is immoral and like murder, I command all humans not to engage in it for it offends me. Thus Sayeth your Lord."

I asked why you asked the question, because we are not talking about me and my opinions, but rather what led to actions taken in Biblical times. Be honest. You asked the question as an attack when all I'm interested in is a discussion.

Then you double down and open the above post asking me another attack question.

Are you interested in discussing the issues happening in Biblical times, or are you just looking for someone to slap around?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Correct, Captain Obvious.

Amazing, isn't it, how humanity has grown from beating people who work for them into never laying a hand on them. Now, if we only have it in us to bring that same philosophy to our wars. I'm guessing that may take a few thousand years more.

What is amazing to me (NOT) is that your Catholic church has become more secular in the last century meaning that instead of humans adopting Catholicism (the church is waning), Catholicism has adopted the morals of the day and time. Go figure how that works, eh? Humans decide that homosexuals are that way because they were born that way and Catholics say "Yeah, you're right. Let's ignore that little bible verse when god said they were an abomination and deserve death and embrace LGTBQ now and pretend that the verse meant something else....in HEBREW of course and for 2000 years Catholics didn't know.