When exactly does the Democrats' socialism kick in?

Deplorable Yankee said:
Mountain of dead bodies the last 60 years has been brought to you by the MIC division of cronyism
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Indeed it has. Isn't it interesting that so many sheeple waving the stars and stripes seem not to know anything about it or have gone into a selective state of amnesia?
 
TruthNotBS said:
The real idiots are going to discover their capitalist masters don't need them anymore. Advanced automation and artificial intelligence are going to replace you. It's happening right now.
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No AI or robot can do my job.
Run along lil' commie wannabe.
:itsok:
 
SeaMajor7 said:
I've been at my company for 31 years, I manage an optical repair lab.
My responsibilities are multifaceted and hands on. I'm not just cranking out widgets on an assembly line.
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Your comments prove you don't have a clue of what's coming. Advanced robotics and artificial intelligence today aren't just for "cranking out widgets on an assembly line", but for analyzing multiple forms of data and the environment in ways humans can't, essentially doing everything a human being can do and better. I'm sure that if you were more specific on what "multifaceted and hands-on" tasks you're performing, we would confirm that artificial intelligence and a robot could do it, and much better than you.

Moreover, your job doesn't exist in a vacuum, it relies on other jobs, and if those other jobs are replaced by advanced robotics and AI, you're out of a job. Companies are now downsizing their workforce, replacing their human employees with advanced automation and AI. The Carrier factory in Indiana that Donald Trump visited in his 2016 election-campaign, which was going to move its factory to Mexico, didn't move their factory to Mexico, but nonetheless, they eventually let go of practically all of those workers, replacing them with advanced automation and AI. Carrier is at the forefront of replacing their human workforce with robotics and AI.

Companies have to automate or their competitors will have an edge over them, taking more market share.
 
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TruthNotBS said:
Your comments prove you don't have a clue of what's coming. Advanced robotics and artificial intelligence today aren't just for "cranking out widgets on an assembly line", but for analyzing multiple forms of data and the environment in ways humans can't, essentially doing everything a human being can do and better. I'm sure that if you were more specific on what "multifaceted and hands-on" tasks you're performing, we would confirm that artificial intelligence and a robot could do it, and much better than you.

Moreover, your job doesn't exist in a vacuum, it relies on other jobs, and if those other jobs are replaced by advanced robotics and AI, you're out of a job. Companies are now downsizing their workforce, replacing their human employees with advanced automation and AI. The Carrier factory in Indiana that Donald Trump visited in his 2016 election-campaign, which was going to move its factory to Mexico, didn't move their factory to Mexico, but nonetheless, they eventually let go of practically all of those workers, replacing them with advanced automation and AI. Carrier is at the forefront of replacing their human workforce with robotics and AI.

Companies have to automate or their competitors will have an edge over them, taking more market share.
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You, YOURSELF [sic], must be an AI bot set to stupid.
Get lost. :eusa_hand:
 
SeaMajor7 said:
You, YOURSELF [sic], must be an AI bot set to stupid.
Get lost. :eusa_hand:
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You just broke down, you're unable to defend your position with a rational response. You raged quit and walked out huffing and puffing. Advanced robotics and AI are coming for your job shortly. What's your plan? Sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich? Insulting people and rage quitting? You need a better plan.
 
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TruthNotBS said:
Communism is a great idea and will replace both capitalism and socialism in the future. Socialism is an early stage of communism, or communism "light", when it still allows markets and maintains certain economic and political institutions and instruments that become superfluous in high-communism. Communism is the future successor of capitalism.



Actually, it's capitalism that becomes completely impractical and obsolete once technology permits socialism and communism. Advanced automation and artificial intelligence, render capitalism non-functional and socialism (and later communism) the solution.




In socialism, "private ownership" is the ownership of assets used to generate capital (money), often at the expense and exploitation of human labor. Any property used by one socioeconomic class to exploit another is categorized as "private property". If your business enterprise is simply yourself and maybe your family, then although technically one might still identify the assets of your company as "private property", it's not that in the same sense as a business hiring workers (from the general public or in other words, strangers) and exploiting them for a profit. Paying people less than what they produce and establishing dictatorial control over people's time and labor (their lives).

The other form of property ownership is "personal property", which is for personal use. Your house, plot of land to grow your food, car, computer, fishing boat, gun collection, toothbrush..etc. That's personal property, and isn't "outlawed". Whoever tells you that socialism outlaws all property, including personal, is lying to you.

There are different degrees of socialism, one allowing for the private ownership of the means of production, provided it's within the consumer-goods and services sector of the economy and not in the industries vital to the nation's infrastructure like mining, energy, banking-finance, and a few others.

For the most part, a business within the consumer goods and services market can continue, pretty much as before, with maybe a few more rules that protect labor (allowing workers to unionize). In many ways you have a better chance of being successful business-wise with a socialist government than you do under a capitalist plutocratic oligarchy, which is what we have today in the US. A socialist government might help you stay in business, because you're generating needed jobs. A socialist government will ensure you make a profit, become wealthy, provided your attitude towards business is one of service to the community and nation.

The bottom line of business in socialism isn't private profits but rather the public good. As a capitalist under the authority of socialism, you are serving your community and country. As a capitalist, your socialist government will actually consider you an asset to the community and hence will protect your business, provided you follow the rules and see yourself as a patriot serving your country and people.

As technology advances, allowing production to become more automated, a socialist economy, transitions to the public ownership of the means of mass production. This is socialism, out of necessity, due to material conditions, moving away from a capitalist market economy to a completely socialized economy until it enters into the next phase of mass production which is high-communism. High-communism is when all production becomes personally owned and operated.

In high-communism, you and your family can produce everything you consume without anyone else's assistance. You won't even need the government's infrastructure or resources to produce everything you consume. That's high communism or high-tech communism.



The heart of capitalism is human labor, not private ownership. Without human labor or without enough of it, there's no capitalism or private ownership. Markets crumble without human labor because labor is also the paying consumer and without people purchasing products and services, there's no market capitalism or private business ownership. Your views on economics are fundamentally flawed.




The pursuit of profits within capitalism, can also incentivize monopolies which undermine the production of better goods and services. Capitalists remain tied to old investments and hence technologies that are obsolete in order to maintain market share and continue profiting from those previous investments.

One of the reasons that we don't have more modern, public transportation infrastructure in the United States, like interstate highspeed rail and more trains in general, along with city busses, and trollies, is because the fossil fuel industry wants everyone using gas-guzzling vehicles. Human progress can be stifled as a result of the capitalist pursuit of profits.

For tens of thousands of years, humanity produced everything they needed without markets when human production was tribal and communist (primitive communism - no state, no socioeconomic classes, and no need for money):


In the future, humanity due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence, will become communist again.


"A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes,[1] and ultimately money[6] and the state (or nation state).[7][8][9]

Communists often seek a voluntary state of self-governance but disagree on the means to this end. This reflects a distinction between a more libertarian socialist approach of communization, revolutionary spontaneity, and workers' self-management, and a more authoritarian vanguardist or communist party-driven approach through the development of a socialist state, followed by the withering away of the state.[10] As one of the main ideologies on the political spectrum, communist parties and movements have been described as radical left or far-left.[11][12][note 1]"

Source: Communism - Wikipedia



The free market is a unicorn, it has never existed nor will it ever exist. Markets are always regulated and heavily dependent upon government infrastructure and resources, especially at a national scale, in the modern age.

Capitalism becomes obsolete and non-functional when advanced technology automates production, replacing a significant % of wage labor. A modern society with a market-based economy is forced to adopt socialism by necessity when advanced automation and artificial intelligence begins to significantly replace wage labor. To assert otherwise is to be in denial, like an ostrich with its head in the sand.



The above statements amount to Flopper's skewed, self-serving, pro-capitalist, Cold War claptrap propaganda version of history. He either forgets to mention certain important facts about the circumstances and context in which the USSR was forced to function and grow, and also lies about what actually occurred.

Also ask yourself why these defenders of capitalism, are always appealing to events that supposedly occurred 100 years ago, 50 years ago, as if that sets the standard forever for what must happen in the future. These disingenuous capitalist polemicists pretend that there's only one form of socialism and that socialists aren't allowed to learn from their mistakes in the past and improve socialism in the future. Socialism and communism must exist in only one form, and must always emulate, perfectly, its past without any modification or adjustments. It must remain static forever because clearly, this version of reality serves capitalists, keeping them in power.

The only reason that I respond to people like "flopper" is for the sake of others, who are genuinely interested in the truth. Those who are sincerely concerned for truth, whatever that might be. I write for them, not for "floppers".

Russia was an under-industrialized, agrarian society, with at least half of its population consisting of illiterate peasants, before its socialist revolution in 1917. Tsarist Russia often suffered famines and wars, taking the lives of millions of Russians. Leninist and Stalinist socialism transformed Russia into an industrial juggernaut, rivaling the United States in less than 20 years. What took the US 100 years of industrial development with capitalism, took much less with socialism.

Socialism, according to all of the stats, recognized by even Western economists, significantly improved the standard of living of the vast majority of Russians. This despite the fact that the US, UK, France and ten other countries invaded Russia in 1918, immediately after WW1, to sabotage the socialist Russian revolution. Over 250K foreign troops, along with about 300K pro-capitalist, Tsarist Russian troops of the "White Armies", fought a brutal civil war against the socialist Red Army. There were also internal conflicts between the socialists as well, due to different groups wanting to carry out their version of socialism in Russia vs the others.

The socialists beat the white armies and foreign invaders by the mid-1920s and when Stalin took power a few years later, that's when the five-year plans began. Those economic plans which flopper dishonestly claims were a disaster, quickly industrialized the Soviet Union, turning it into an economic wonder and powerhouse.

Mind you, this was in the middle of the Great Depression in the United States and the Western world in general.
Thousands of well-educated Westerners, scientists, and engineers, traveled to the Soviet Union, to visit and also live and work. If you were an American professional and wanted a better life for you and your family, in the middle of the Graet Depression, you moved to Soviet Russia.

Then what happened in 1941? The Soviet Union was invaded by 4 million Germans. Operation Barbarossa resulted in the death of 28 million Soviets. They lost 14% of their population and yet they won the war. The Soviets beat the German invaders, just as they defeated the previous invading armies in the 1920s. The Soviets after WW2 rebuilt their new country without the Marshal Plan, offered by the United States to Western Europe and Japan. The conditions for the Soviets to accept financial assistance from the US, was that it had to essentially adopt capitalism. The Soviets said "no thanks" and they rebuilt their country on their own.

By the late 1950s, the Soviets were a nuclear superpower, launching rockets into space. By 1970, they had the second-largest economy in the world. The Soviets were war-weary, exhausted by conflict. Soviet government officials wanted to stop the Cold War and were looking at ways to in a way placate, pander to, satisfy the demands of their powerful Cold War rival, the United States. Perestroika and Glasnost in the 1980s, was that attempt, and it led to the dissolution of the USSR. If the USSR had continued implementing Stalin's five-year plans, the USSR today would be the world's #1 economy and superpower, without a doubt.


As far as China, it also was practically an unindustrialized, agrarian country, that like Tsarist Russia, had also suffered many famines before socialism, resulting in the deaths of millions of people. Socialist China tried to emulate Russian socialism, and in the beginning that led to serious difficulties. Russia and China are two different countries, with different natural resources and one can't expect that Stalin's five-year plans would work in China, without first being modified to meet the unique circumstances found in China. Nonetheless, by the late 1960s, China had overcome all of the famines and was gradually industrializing itself.

China today doesn't have a marketless socialist economy, but it's nonetheless socialist. There's heavy government involvement in the Chinese economy, as well as economic government planning. Capitalism is what happened to Russia in the 1990s, before Putin arrived and added some socialism to the Russian economy. Russia after the dissolution of the USSR, suffered what economists call "Capitalist Shock Therapy", it was forced to privatize everything and essentially sell all of Russia's public assets, once government-owned infrastructure to a bunch of wealthy capitalist oligarchs, who rapped Russia for pennies on the dollar.

China didn't do what Russia did in the 1990s, pre-Putin:


​

China implemented a form of market capitalism in its economy within the safe boundaries of socialism. As mentioned earlier, there's heavy government involvement in the Chinese market economy. It's not by any stretch of the imagination, Milton Friedman-style "free-market" capitalism. Friedman actually had really strong criticism of Chinese "capitalism", he hated it, due to how much government involvement there was.

Soon, due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence, markets will become obsolete and hence unsustainable. Marketless, more democratic, socialism will in time fully replace capitalism, out of necessity.
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Keep in mind that most of our giant businesses began as Small family owned businesses. Amadeo Pietro Giannini who operated a small retail store in New York’s Little Italy began to loan money to His customers. It’s profitability lead him to covert his store to the Bank of Italy which became the Bank of America.

Henry Ford was a machinist who opened a small shop. And it was there he built his first automobile. Most of the great businesses of today grew from family owed businesses.

America was built not by government but by men who had an idea and were willing to risk everything to turn that idea into a profitable business.
 
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Anathema said:
The Socialism has been here for decades… Socisl Security, Medicare, Medicaid, The Affordable Care Act, Affirmative Action, etc… Most of what the Feds do today is Socialism, and contrary to the limits laid out in the US Constitution.
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Why have republicans not gotten rid of all these things yet? Seems to me republicans love evil socialism!!!!!
 
TruthNotBS said:
You just broke down, you're unable to defend your position with a rational response. You raged quit and walked out huffing and puffing. Advanced robotics and AI are coming for your job shortly. What's your plan? Sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich? Insulting people and rage quitting? You need a better plan.
Click to expand...
Daisy, Daisy
Give me your answer dooooooo
🤖
 
Flopper said:
Keep in mind that most of our giant businesses began as Small family owned businesses. Amadeo Pietro Giannini who operated a small retail store in New York’s Little Italy began to loan money to His customers. It’s profitability lead him to covert his store to the Bank of Italy which became the Bank of America.

Henry Ford was a machinist who opened a small shop. And it was there he built his first automobile. Most of the great businesses of today grew from family owed businesses.

America was built not by government but by men who had an idea and were willing to risk everything to turn that idea into a profitable business.
Click to expand...

It's fascinating how you romanticize the idea of small family-owned businesses transforming into industrial giants, but your narrative conveniently ignores the reality of how America was truly built. Let's not forget that the foundation of the American economy wasn't laid by entrepreneurs alone but through the exploitation of countless others, including enslaved Africans, indentured servants, and exploited immigrant laborers.

Yes Henry Ford was a visionary, but he didn't operate in a vacuum. Ford benefited immensely from government contracts during both World Wars, government-subsidized infrastructure like roads and railways, and a workforce educated and maintained by public institutions. The mass production techniques Ford is famous for weren't just his invention, they were made possible by the efforts of thousands of workers whose labor was exploited for his private gain. Mass production is a social endeavor, not a private one.

The US government provided Ford with the legal framework, currency, and infrastructure that made large-scale industrial operations feasible. So, to argue that America was built "not by government" but by individuals alone is a capitalist fairytale.

Your glorification of these business icons also ignores how many of them stifled competition and innovation to maintain their market-share dominance. Capitalism isn't about fair play; it's about the private accumulation of wealth and power, often at the expense of the public good. The monopolistic practices and exploitation of workers that characterized the rise of these industrial giants are precisely why we need democratic socialism as a corrective force and eventually a better solution to mass production than market capitalism.

As for your assertion that the pursuit of profit leads to innovation, that's hardly the case. The pursuit of profit often leads to corner-cutting, environmental degradation, the suppression of new technology to avoid disrupting lucrative, well-established markets, and the engineered obsolescence of products, making them wear out and break within a certain time frame to force the consumer to purchase more of the product. All of this is in the name of maintaining the "bottom line".

The same fossil fuel companies that profit from gas-guzzling cars have lobbied against the development of modern, efficient public transportation systems that would benefit society as a whole. They've also lobbied members of the US Congress to make nuclear energy incredibly expensive and hence difficult to produce, to maintain America's dependence on oil, gas, and coal.

We have lobbyists for the private prison industry lobbying politicians to make more things illegal and sentences longer, all for the purpose of increasing their profits.

When you say capitalism is about individuals "risking everything" to turn an idea into a profitable business, you ignore the reality that in today's capitalism, the risks are disproportionately borne by the workers and the public, while the rewards are concentrated in the hands of a few. Workers are the ones who really take risks:

workers risk.png


factory-workers-needed-2023.jpg

The truth is that capitalism has always relied on government support, whether through direct subsidies, favorable legislation, or military intervention to protect capitalist interests. Yet, when it comes to ensuring the well-being of the American public and its working class, capitalism fails miserably.

As technology advances, the contradictions of capitalism become even more apparent. Automation and AI threaten to eliminate almost all jobs, and without a social safety net or a plan to transition to a new economic model, we're heading toward a catastrophic crisis. Capitalism, which thrives on the exploitation of labor, becomes obsolete when that labor is no longer necessary. That's where democratic socialism steps in, to save the day. Democratic socialism is the future, and if Americans don't realize that yet, they will when advanced robotics and artificial intelligence, takes their jobs.









​
 
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