when do we build our own iron curtain?

[leojoeyjoe]

you're no prize intellect yourself, brokenenglishman.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by NewGuy
How about Christian morals which the nation and its liberties are founded on?

“The government of the United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion.”
— (First) Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 (8 US at L 154)

“The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine.”
— George Washington

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” — Thomas Jefferson, writing to the Danbury Baptist Association on 1 January 1802.

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."
- Thomas Paine

 

[NewGuy]

DK, read the link.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by NewGuy
DK, read the link.

the link about the bill of rights?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
the link about the bill of rights?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7850

And remember, If you want me to post the surrounding paragraphs to put your out-of-context quotes into context, I CAN and WILL.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by NewGuy
http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7850

And remember, If you want me to post the surrounding paragraphs to put your out-of-context quotes into context, I CAN and WILL.

nothing out of context with my quotes. The christian coalition has spent all this time trying to rewrite history when its plain text in the founding documents that this isn't a christian nation, as stated clearly by George Washington, but that america is a spiritual nation with belief in an individuals creator and that relationship is between a man and his god, not a nation and its god.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
nothing out of context with my quotes. The christian coalition has spent all this time trying to rewrite history when its plain text in the founding documents that this isn't a christian nation, as stated clearly by George Washington, but that america is a spiritual nation with belief in an individuals creator and that relationship is between a man and his god, not a nation and its god.

You got it DK. The elite of the framers were rationalists based on philosophy from the Enlightenment, not the Renaissance. Slight timewise, but significant difference regarding religion.

Several were deists, Franklin and somewhat Jefferson, (who, forgive me, reminds me a bit of Kerry.) Their influence permeates what happened between the beginning of the Revolution and the writing of the Constitution and the Federalist papers.

No doubt, this has primarily been a Christian Protestant country, but it does not have to be in order to work and that's the beauty of it.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
nothing out of context with my quotes.

Then post the original text.

The christian coalition has spent all this time trying to rewrite history when its plain text in the founding documents that this isn't a christian nation, as stated clearly by George Washington, but that america is a spiritual nation with belief in an individuals creator and that relationship is between a man and his god, not a nation and its god.

This is part right only.

1. Yes they are trying to re-write history.
2. The nation is not a Christian nation.
3. IF a man and his God have a relationship only, state to me the text I have provided you in the link to the Virginia Declaration of Rights. Also, state your quotes with contextual text.

You are flat wrong.

Our founders claimed no belief to be mandated on the public but that they were Christians themselves and that the nation must follow Christian ETHICS AND MORALS as outlined by the foundation of our government.

If you want more docs to show the proof we can show:

1. The statements in the Constitution and Bill of Rights
2. The Virginia Declaration of Rights
3. The Articles of Confederation

All of these are legal, ratified foundational documents agreed upon and signed into reality, -Not a bunch of quotes out of context from farewell adresses or letters to other individuals.

-Edited because my keyboard sucks and I can't type worth a crap tonight.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Then post the original text.

what do you want? the entire treaty of tripoli?

This is part right only.

1. Yes they are trying to re-write history.
2. The nation is not a Christian nation.
3. IF a man and his God have a relationship only, state to me the text I have provided you in the link to the Virginia Declaration of Rights. Also, state your quotes with contextual text.

You are flat wrong.

Our founders claimed no belief to be mandated on the public but that they were Christians themselves and that the nation must follow Christian ETHICS AND MORALS as outlined by the foundation of our government.

If you want more docs to show the proof we can show:

1. The statements in the Constitution and Bill of Rights
2. The Virginia Declaration of Rights
3. The Articles of Confederation

All of these are legal, ratified foundational documents agreed upon and signed into reality, -Not a bunch of quotes out of context from farewell adresses or letters to other individuals.

-Edited because my keyboard sucks and I can't type worth a crap tonight.

nowhere in ANY of your documents that you have stated is there ANY mention of christianity except the virginia document which is NOT in the constitution, declaration, or the US bill of rights. There is the creator and thats it. Now, if VIRGINIA lays claims to being a christian state, then you're right. But continuing to lay claim that this is a nation founded on christianity is flat wrong.

 

[leojoeyjoe]

But continuing to lay claim that this is a nation founded on christianity is flat wrong.

I don't even believe in a creator but I know he's 9meaning new guy) right on this one...there has been much written by any number of the founding fathers about the influence of christian ethics and morals...their belief in metaphysics meant that they believed the "good" forces of the metaphysical (god) to be the natural state of free men...the point of the laws they wrote was for them to be naturally conducive to these forces....the "novus ordum" triangle contains this symbolism....at the top of the pyramid lies the natural pantheistic (literally all seeing, enlightened) vision endowed by the creator and supported by our constitution....

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
what do you want? the entire treaty of tripoli?

If that is what it takes to prove your quotes in context, yes.

Since I have it, do you want me to post it?

nowhere in ANY of your documents that you have stated is there ANY mention of christianity except the virginia document which is NOT in the constitution, declaration, or the US bill of rights. There is the creator and thats it. Now, if VIRGINIA lays claims to being a christian state, then you're right. But continuing to lay claim that this is a nation founded on christianity is flat wrong.

Lay down yer cards, baby.

I call bluff. I KNOW the deck, and I hold the aces. Put the docs up with your quotes, and we can end this thing once and for all. I will add the documents I have listed with their statements, and all will be revealed.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Originally posted by NewGuy
If that is what it takes to prove your quotes in context, yes.

Since I have it, do you want me to post it?

no, i have the paragraph right here.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion — as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] — and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Lay down yer cards, baby.

I call bluff. I KNOW the deck, and I hold the aces. Put the docs up with your quotes, and we can end this thing once and for all. I will add the documents I have listed with their statements, and all will be revealed.

show me where in the constitution, declaration, or bill of rights, except the virginia one, that states CLEARLY and with zero ambiguity that the United States is a nation built upon the christian religion.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
no, i have the paragraph right here.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion — as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] — and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

First, a timeline:

1796-97 Treaty with Tripoli

This came AFTER the following:

17th Century

1601-1649
o The First, Second, & Third Virginia Charters
o The Mayflower Compact (1620)
o The Charter of Massachusetts Bay (1629)
o The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut (1639)

1650-1700
o The Connecticut Colony Charter (1662)
o The First Thanksgiving Proclamation (1676)

18th Century

1701-1774
o The Albany Plan of 1754
o The Resolutions of the Stamp Act (Oct. 19, 1765)

1775-1800
o Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death by Patrick Henry (March 23, 1775)
o The Declaration of Arms (July 6, 1775)
o Yankee Doodle
o The Virginia Declaration of Rights (June 12, 1776)
o The Declaration of Independence (July 4, 1776)
o The Works of Benjamin Franklin
o The Articles of Confederation (Nov. 15, 1777)
o The Treaty of Paris (1783)
o The Federalist Papers
o The Memorial and Remonstrance (June 20, 1785)
o The Annapolis Convention (Sept. 14, 1786)
o Letter of Transmittal of the U.S. Constitution (Sept. 17, 1787)
o The Constitution of the United States. (1787)
o The Northwest Ordinance (July 13, 1787)
o First Inaugural Address of President George Washington (April 30, 1789)
o The First State of the Union Address (Jan. 8, 1790)
o Second Inaugural Address of President George Washington (Mar. 4, 1793)
o The Proclamation of Neutrality (April 22, 1793)
o The Fugitive Slave Law of 1793
o The Treaty of Greenville (1795)

---Notice there is just a LITTLE history proving you wrong already. A document made well AFTER and contradicting a statement proclaiming a Christian based nation does not invalidate anything. -Much less one made so long after so many documents claiming otherwise.

Now the statement you refer to:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Read your punctuation. There are semicolons making the whole paragraph a detailed clarification statement of the opening statement in said paragraph.

It simply reads..." Becasue the US government is not founded in a Christian religion, proven by not having hatred against laws or religion or peace of Mussulmen and proven by fact of not warring with them, we declare no pretext against them by religious belief that shall interrupt trade."

How can it say this?

The treaty, one of several with Tripoli, was negotiated during the "Barbary Powers Conflict," which started shortly after the Revolutionary War and continued through the Presidents Washington, Adams, Jefferson, and Madison.

The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, Tripoli, and Turkey) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States). In 1801, Tripoli declared war against the United States, constituting America’s first official war as an established independent nation.

In order to distinguish its self from "Christian" nations which justified their rule by a theocracy style system, since the US was not OF THAT SYSTEM of government, it had to declare a difference as the muslim world would percieve it.

This is why the article was worded that way. If this document is to be belived to be claiming America a non-Christian nation in its founding, then it would go against:

" The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature."

John Adams, Works, Vol. X, pp. 45-46, to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813.

And when General Eaton began his military action against Tripoli, his personal journal noted:

April 8th. We find it almost impossible to inspire these wild bigots with confidence in us or to persuade them that, being Christians, we can be otherwise than enemies to Musselmen. We have a difficult undertaking!

May 23rd. Hassien Bey, the commander in chief of the enemy’s forces, has offered by private insinuation for my head six thousand dollars and double the sum for me a prisoner; and $30 per head for Christians. Why don’t he come and take it?

Prentiss, p. 334, from Eaton’s journal, May 23, 1805.

show me where in the constitution, declaration, or bill of rights, except the virginia one, that states CLEARLY and with zero ambiguity that the United States is a nation built upon the christian religion.

Why? The Virginia one was RATIFIED. IT IS AS IMPORTANT AS ALL OF THE OTHERS.

1. The Virginia Declaration of Rights (June 12, 1776) -Well before your Tripoli agreement and model predecessor to the Bill of Rights.
This shows quite literally we are a Christian nation in belief and will not LEGISLATE our beliefs upon the people but we must follow the ethics and morals:

XV That no free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue and by frequent recurrence to fundamental principles.

XVI That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.

2. Articles of Confederation (Nov. 15, 1777) -again, well before Tripoli and model predecessor to the Constitution.
This shows that we get AUTHORITY FROM A SINGULAR GOD:

XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.
And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said Confederation are submitted to them. And that the Articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.

In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third Year of the independence of America.

Agreed to by Congress 15 November 1777
In force after ratification by Maryland, 1 March 1781

3. The Constitution (Sept 17, 1787) STILL before Tripoli. It shows that we will not legislate the morality as religion will be in behavior alone, not legal mandate:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

4. The Bill Of Rights (Dec. 15, 1791)....Wow. Still BEFORE TRIPOLI.
This shows no law will be made in favor or against religion. An additional Amendment underscores that fact.:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

5. The Declaration of Independence (June 28, 1776)...STILL before Tripoli.

Notice the entire belief in the authority of God and duty of a Christian group.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Do you want more?

 

[leojoeyjoe]

 

[Annie]

New Guy, you have many primary sources, I'll grant you that. The Constitution, which like the Declaration purposely excludes mention of Christ, superceded the Virginia Plan altogether. The final document was an amalgamation from the Virginia Plan and the New Jersey Plan, yet altogether different than either.

There are many countries in South America and Europe that are based on A Christian faith, the US is not one of them. We are based on law, though the people are primarily Christians.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Kathianne
New Guy, you have many primary sources, I'll grant you that. The Constitution, which like the Declaration purposely excludes mention of Christ, superceded the Virginia Plan altogether. The final document was an amalgamation from the Virginia Plan and the New Jersey Plan, yet altogether different than either.

There are many countries in South America and Europe that are based on A Christian faith, the US is not one of them. We are based on law, though the people are primarily Christians.

There is a difference between being "based upon", and being "ruled by".

We are "based upon".

Again, you cannot get around all of the other documentation. Read the sources I lested other than the excerpts I posted. I gave a whole timeline of docs.

I proved and still provide yet more examples that we are to have a Christian ethic and morality of behavior which is not legislated as letter of the law, but implied as spirit of the law.

Documentation clearly makes the statement as well, and also includes the beliefs of our founders as matching.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by NewGuy
There is a difference between being "based upon", and being "ruled by".

We are "based upon".

Again, you cannot get around all of the other documentation. Read the sources I lested other than the excerpts I posted. I gave a whole timeline of docs.

I proved and still provide yet more examples that we are to have a Christian ethic and morality of behavior which is not legislated as letter of the law, but implied as spirit of the law.

Documentation clearly makes the statement as well, and also includes the beliefs of our founders as matching.

I'm very familiar with the documents. We are not 'ruled by Christianity' if we were, the 10 Commandments would be in that court house and the boy scouts wouldn't be having meeting problems.

The citizens are primarily Christian, that is a fact. The different denominations however would be nearly impossible to control, if allowed to fight for which is 'right.' In fact, the reason we do not have those types of tribal problems is that we are a governed under a secular system that accomodates all the Christians, Jews, Wiccans, atheists, etc.

Listing more documents will not change the way the Framers organized the government, under the Constitution. Many of the documents you have cited are used for court interpretations and references for law writing. They are important, both practically and historically.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Kathianne
I'm very familiar with the documents. We are not 'ruled by Christianity' if we were, the 10 Commandments would be in that court house and the boy scouts wouldn't be having meeting problems.

That is what I said.

The citizens are primarily Christian, that is a fact. The different denominations however would be nearly impossible to control, if allowed to fight for which is 'right.' In fact, the reason we do not have those types of tribal problems is that we are a governed under a secular system that accomodates all the Christians, Jews, Wiccans, atheists, etc.

Faulty logic. Christian belief and morality is in the Bible and there was only one type circulating in the time of the formation of our nation. Again, we are talking about SPIRIT of the law.

Listing more documents will not change the way the Framers organized the government, under the Constitution. Many of the documents you have cited are used for court interpretations and references for law writing. They are important, both practically and historically.

Ummm, no.

They are the literal foundation of our government. The Constitution is the ultimate authority by its own declaration. These documents are not merely items for study in writing law and then to be shelved.

Also, they are not to be "interpreted". There is not Constitutional basis for that entire line of reasoning. Taking things in context makes "interpretation" impossible.

 

[leojoeyjoe]

I'm very familiar with the documents. We are not 'ruled by Christianity' if we were, the 10 Commandments would be in that court house and the boy scouts wouldn't be having meeting problems.

Yes but he is talking about the foundations of the country (based on) and you are citing recent interpretations...
New Guy is ABSOLUTELY right in saying that our country, the logic and principles upon which the law is based, are all based on christianity. This is an utterly true statement.

 

[Annie]

New Guy, basically we're in agreement. More tomorrow, glad you're back and feeling better.