Zone1 When atheism becomes faith. Confessions of a former atheist.

[Anomalism]

I used to be a militant atheist.

Not just privately unconvinced, but actively oppositional. I felt almost compelled to undermine religious belief wherever I encountered it. I framed it as defending reason, promoting science, pushing back against irrationality. And at some level, that was sincere, but it wasn’t the whole story.

Over time, I started noticing I was operating on a kind of faith too. I would say there’s no evidence for God, but if I’m honest, there’s also no evidence against God, depending on how God is defined. Once a claim becomes unfalsifiable, it’s no longer a scientific claim; it’s a philosophical one.

The harder truth took longer to admit. Part of my opposition of religious belief was jealousy.
Religious people often carry a kind of existential comfort. The universe has purpose. Suffering has meaning. Death is not the end. There is structure, supervision, and moral clarity. Meanwhile, I believed the universe was indifferent. Vast, impersonal, and ultimately unconcerned with human existence.

Why did they get narrative comfort and I didn’t?
At some level, I wanted to strip that comfort away. I dressed it up as intellectual honesty, but there was resentment underneath. If I had to live in an indifferent cosmos, why should anybody else get to not do the same?

I eventually moved toward a different position. I don’t see sufficient evidence to affirm theistic claims. But I also recognize that metaphysical certainty, on either side, goes beyond what evidence justifies.

What changed wasn’t my commitment to reason. It was my awareness of my own motivations and lack of consistency.

 

[Votto]

I used to be a militant atheist.

Not just privately unconvinced, but actively oppositional. I felt almost compelled to undermine religious belief wherever I encountered it. I framed it as defending reason, promoting science, pushing back against irrationality. And at some level, that was sincere, but it wasn’t the whole story.

Over time, I started noticing I was operating on a kind of faith too. I would say there’s no evidence for God, but if I’m honest, there’s also no evidence against God, depending on how God is defined. Once a claim becomes unfalsifiable, it’s no longer a scientific claim; it’s a philosophical one.

The harder truth took longer to admit. Part of my opposition of religious belief was jealousy.
Religious people often carry a kind of existential comfort. The universe has purpose. Suffering has meaning. Death is not the end. There is structure, supervision, and moral clarity. Meanwhile, I believed the universe was indifferent. Vast, impersonal, and ultimately unconcerned with human existence.

Why did they get narrative comfort and I didn’t?
At some level, I wanted to strip that comfort away. I dressed it up as intellectual honesty, but there was resentment underneath. If I had to live in an indifferent cosmos, why should anybody else get to not do the same?

I eventually moved toward a different position. I don’t see sufficient evidence to affirm theistic claims. But I also recognize that metaphysical certainty, on either side, goes beyond what evidence justifies.

What changed wasn’t my commitment to reason. It was my awareness of my own motivations and lack of consistency.

I disagree with the assessment that there is no evidence for God. It's just evidence that you have decided to shun or rate as inconsequential is all. Just the mere fact of observing the miracle of life and a material universe out of seemingly nothing is evidence enough, but not proof.

Faith is not devoid of reason though, no, far from it. If it does not make sense to you on a large scale, you will probably reject it. But faith also is not limited to reason, which is essential assuming that there is an all-knowing God dealing with finite human beings who have limited reasoning abilities. That is why it is that if there really is an all-knowing God, at times it will be necessary to place your faith in him for things you cannot comprehend for one reason or another. You might even say that placing faith in an all-knowing being is the only means for interaction with that being

 

[Anomalism]

I disagree with the assessment that there is no evidence for God. It's just evidence that you have decided to shun or rate as inconsequential is all. Just the mere fact of observing the miracle of life and a material universe out of seemingly nothing is evidence enough, but not proof.

Faith is not devoid of reason though, no, far from it. If it does not make sense to you on a large scale, you will probably reject it. But faith also is not limited to reason, which is essential assuming that there is an all-knowing God dealing with finite human beings who have limited reasoning abilities. That is why it is that if there really is an all-knowing God, at times it will be necessary to place your faith in him for things you cannot comprehend for one reason or another. You might even say that placing faith in an all-knowing being is the only means for interaction with that being

You're not wrong. We can't measure it though. It's currently outside the realm of science. For now, God can only be intuited.

 

[Votto]

You're not wrong. We can't measure it though. It's currently outside the realm of science. For now, God can only be intuited.

Correct, you cannot measure God directly much like you can't measure gravity directly, but you can study the effect gravity has on material objects.

And it is the same with God. You can see how God has change lives, many lives that I have seen changed that I never would have dreamed could be changed, but you can't measure God directly. And there is the fact that most world religions are byproducts from the Bible in some form or another. It is the effect the Bible has had on humanity as well as many prophesies that have come true from it.

You seem to have developed a certain amount of humility over the years, which is necessary if you actually acknowledge a God that is all knowing when you are not. Many though, seem to insist that they have all the answers,

 

[Anomalism]

Correct, you cannot measure God directly much like you can't measure gravity directly, but you can study the effect gravity has on material objects.

And it is the same with God. You can see how God has change lives, many lives that I have seen changed that I never would have dreamed could be changed, but you can't measure God directly. And there is the fact that most world religions are byproducts from the Bible in some form or another. It is the effect the Bible has had on humanity as well as many prophesies that have come true from it.

You seem to have developed a certain amount of humility over the years, which is necessary if you actually acknowledge a God that is all knowing when you are not. Many though, seem to insist that they have all the answers,

This is where the categories matter.

We don’t measure gravity directly, but we measure its effects with precision, consistency, and predictive power. Objects accelerate at measurable rates. Orbits follow equations. Gravitational lensing matches mathematical models. The effects are quantifiable and repeatable across observers.

When we talk about God’s effects, that’s a different kind of phenomenon. People absolutely change, but people change across many different religions, and also in secular contexts. Therapy changes lives. Political ideologies change lives. Meditation changes lives. If mutually contradictory belief systems all produce transformation, then transformation by itself doesn’t uniquely verify any one metaphysical claim.

That doesn’t mean God isn’t real. It just means the evidence isn’t discriminating in the same way gravitational data is.

As for the miracle of life or the existence of the universe, those are powerful experiences of awe. I feel that too. But awe isn’t the same as empirical evidence. Historically, many things that seemed miraculous later turned out to have natural explanations. Again, that doesn’t eliminate the possibility of God; it just means mystery alone doesn’t settle the question.

 

[rightwinger]

You make atheism too hard

It is just that we have heard the claims about God and just don’t believe them

 

[Anomalism]

You make atheism too hard

It is just that we have heard the claims about God and just don’t believe them

I only spoke for myself.

 

[alang1216]

I used to be a militant atheist.

Not just privately unconvinced, but actively oppositional. I felt almost compelled to undermine religious belief wherever I encountered it. I framed it as defending reason, promoting science, pushing back against irrationality. And at some level, that was sincere, but it wasn’t the whole story.

Over time, I started noticing I was operating on a kind of faith too. I would say there’s no evidence for God, but if I’m honest, there’s also no evidence against God, depending on how God is defined. Once a claim becomes unfalsifiable, it’s no longer a scientific claim; it’s a philosophical one.

The harder truth took longer to admit. Part of my opposition of religious belief was jealousy.
Religious people often carry a kind of existential comfort. The universe has purpose. Suffering has meaning. Death is not the end. There is structure, supervision, and moral clarity. Meanwhile, I believed the universe was indifferent. Vast, impersonal, and ultimately unconcerned with human existence.

Why did they get narrative comfort and I didn’t?
At some level, I wanted to strip that comfort away. I dressed it up as intellectual honesty, but there was resentment underneath. If I had to live in an indifferent cosmos, why should anybody else get to not do the same?

I eventually moved toward a different position. I don’t see sufficient evidence to affirm theistic claims. But I also recognize that metaphysical certainty, on either side, goes beyond what evidence justifies.

What changed wasn’t my commitment to reason. It was my awareness of my own motivations and lack of consistency.

I just can't believe in something because I wish it were true. Not in my DNA. If someone wants to believe in the supernatural or get drunk or do heroin because it make them happy, that is their choice and so long as they leave me be, I'm fine with it. I'm just not going to join them.

 

[Anomalism]

I just can't believe in something because I wish it were true. Not in my DNA. If someone wants to believe in the supernatural or get drunk or do heroin because it make them happy, that is their choice and so long as they leave me be, I'm fine with it. I'm just not going to join them.

I've never really had issues with religious people pushing their beliefs on me unless I made an issue. I've maybe had a few people knock on my door in my life, and they were all very nice people.

 

[alang1216]

I've never really had issues with religious people pushing their beliefs on me unless I made an issue. I've maybe had a few people knock on my door in my life, and they were all very nice people.

The religious types are usually the nicest of people, especially the Mormons, but I was thinking of laws that favor one religion over another religion or religion over the non-religious. Things like putting the 10 Commandments in schools or teaching Intelligent Design.

 

[ding]

You're not wrong. We can't measure it though. It's currently outside the realm of science. For now, God can only be intuited.

The evidence is indirect, not non-existent and that we can measure. Like many phenomena, we have to use proxies.

 

[ding]

This is where the categories matter.

We don’t measure gravity directly, but we measure its effects with precision, consistency, and predictive power. Objects accelerate at measurable rates. Orbits follow equations. Gravitational lensing matches mathematical models. The effects are quantifiable and repeatable across observers.

When we talk about God’s effects, that’s a different kind of phenomenon. People absolutely change, but people change across many different religions, and also in secular contexts. Therapy changes lives. Political ideologies change lives. Meditation changes lives. If mutually contradictory belief systems all produce transformation, then transformation by itself doesn’t uniquely verify any one metaphysical claim.

That doesn’t mean God isn’t real. It just means the evidence isn’t discriminating in the same way gravitational data is.

As for the miracle of life or the existence of the universe, those are powerful experiences of awe. I feel that too. But awe isn’t the same as empirical evidence. Historically, many things that seemed miraculous later turned out to have natural explanations. Again, that doesn’t eliminate the possibility of God; it just means mystery alone doesn’t settle the question.

Have you ever heard of the "happiness advantage" and the science behind it?

 

[ding]

The religious types are usually the nicest of people

For almost all things there is a distribution. If you were to say on average religious people are nice the majority of time, I would agree. But it's easy to be nice when things are going well. The true test is when things aren't going well. And I would add that all of what I just wrote pretty much applies to most people regardless of their religious beliefs. I find it helpful to remember that at the end of the day we are all human and subject to human imperfections. We don't have perfect information so I prefer to err on the side of caution and try to see most in the best possible light which is also how I try to view faiths that are not my own. This can be a challenge sometimes.

 

[ding]

Religious people often carry a kind of existential comfort.

Some might call that a "smugness." But to your point, I have faith that good comes from bad. It's quite powerful.

 

[alang1216]

For almost all things there is a distribution. If you were to say on average religious people are nice the majority of time, I would agree. But it's easy to be nice when things are going well. The true test is when things aren't going well. And I would add that all of what I just wrote pretty much applies to most people regardless of their religious beliefs. I find it helpful to remember that at the end of the day we are all human and subject to human imperfections. We don't have perfect information so I prefer to err on the side of caution and try to see most in the best possible light which is also how I try to view faiths that are not my own. This can be a challenge sometimes.

All true. I generally find religious people feel they have something of value and just want to share it. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Anomalism]

Some might call that a "smugness." But to your point, I have faith that good comes from bad. It's quite powerful.

Good comes from bad. Bad comes from good. More endless loops.

 

[Anomalism]

Have you ever heard of the "happiness advantage" and the science behind it?

I'm not familiar with that. Maybe I'll look into it later. Can you give me a synopsis?

 

[ding]

Good comes from bad. Bad comes from good. More endless loops.

Yes, but isn't it a positive slope?

 

[ding]

I'm not familiar with that. Maybe I'll look into it later. Can you give me a synopsis?

 

[Anomalism]

Yes, but isn't it a positive slope?

My intuition and what I observe in the world suggest yes.