What's An Acceptable Number Of Innocent People Being Executed?

[NoNukes]

Provide evidence an innocent person was put to death in the last 40 years. Or admit you have nothing but supposition.

We would have to have DNA evidence on everyone executed in the past 40 years in order to prove anything either way. If these people who were exonerated were executed immediately, as some people want, they all would have been innocent people who were executed. Now, give me your evidence that no innocent person has been executed.

I don't have to prove a negative. You made a claim substantiate it.

Sorry, I was trying to use common sense, which obviously means nothing to you.

 

[NoNukes]

Provide evidence an innocent person was put to death in the last 40 years. Or admit you have nothing but supposition.

We would have to have DNA evidence on everyone executed in the past 40 years in order to prove anything either way. If these people who were exonerated were executed immediately, as some people want, they all would have been innocent people who were executed. Now, give me your evidence that no innocent person has been executed.

I don't have to prove a negative. You made a claim substantiate it.

8 People Who Were Executed and Later Found Innocent | Naked Law by Avvo.com

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If you cannot see the relation of the governor of Texas to capital punishment, you should not be on these boards. Go to an entertainment or sports board.

What about Obama and his relationship to it? He has the power to commute the sentence of anyone in any prison in the US. How often has he stopped them?

If you want to talk about Obama, we will talk about Obama, but do not use that as a deflestion away from Rick Perry.

I was already forced to defend Perry from one idiot here, even though this thread is not about him. That left a sour taste in my mouth, so I am changing tactics. Every time someone tries to blame Perry for not stopping something he cannot stop I wall ask them why Obama did not stop something he can.

 

[Intense]

The Innocent Executed

By William Kreuter

"The criminal justice system can and does fail to distinguish the innocent from the guilty, and the implications for capital punishment are ghastly." -- from a discussion on the Internet in January, 1997.

Justice: Denied unconditionally opposes capital punishment. Although our primary focus is to free the wrongly convicted, the death penalty is an important allied focus. As we noted in our editorial in Issue 10, one leading reason for our stance is the astonishing number -- now well over eighty and rising rapidly -- of prisoners who in the past quarter century were sentenced to death but were released from prison because of the likelihood of their innocence. A frequent rebuttal to this argument is that no innocent person has actually been executed. In this article we examine the weakness of that claim.

The rebuttal is fatuous partly because of its circular logic. There is no judicial mechanism for review of guilt or pronouncement of innocence after an execution. The courts are done with it. Therefore, it should go without saying that no court has announced that an executed person was innocent, since American courts by definition do not make such findings.

Here, however, we will explore some of what we believe to be at least a few dozen instances when prisoners who most likely were innocent nevertheless were executed. (Not all the prisoners with the strongest claims of innocence are mentioned in this article.) In many of these cases, evidence of innocence was available to judges or governors who could have prevented the execution.

The reasons they didn't do so include maintaining a public image, pretense of fairness, and narrow-minded dedication to procedure even when a life is at stake. (The unavailability of governors' commutations as a safety valve for innocence is a whole subject in itself.) In some cases, notably Wayne Felker's, dissenting judges noted the gross miscarriage of justice, while Pedro Medina lost by just one vote in Florida's highest court the right to a hearing of evidence of his innocence. But the fact that the executions took place does not at all weaken the evidence of innocence in any of these cases.

Elsewhere in this issue, we discuss the recent news of the moratorium on executions in Illinois proclaimed this past January. Governor Ryan took that action because more prisoners have left that state's death row on account of innocence than by execution. One of those released, Anthony Porter, was only two days from lethal injection when his execution was stayed. What's lost in the news about the Illinois moratorium is that had Porter been executed, he simply would have been regarded as guilty by definition and there would have been no hand-wringing over executing the innocent.

An example of exactly that situation was Girvies Davis, also mentioned elsewhere in this issue. Davis was likely an innocent victim of a coerced confession who was executed in Illinois in 1995. Prior to that execution, a widespread campaign sought to publicize his innocence, yet Davis is now a forgotten prisoner never mentioned in any of the media coverage of the Illinois moratorium.

Issue 10 of J: D examined Odell Barnes, Freddie Lee Wright and Philip Workman, who are all probable victims of manufactured evidence and corrupt proceedings. Barnes was executed on March 1st in Texas, and Wright's execution was on March 3rd in Alabama. Workman is scheduled to be killed April 6 in Tennessee.

Among cases mentioned in previous issues of J: D is David Wayne Spence, executed by the state of Texas on April 3, 1997 despite the conclusion of the police lieutenant who supervised the case that "I do not think David Spence committed this crime." The homicide detective on the case added, "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." One of the inmates who testified in Spence's trial, Robert Snelson, said, "We all fabricated our accounts of Spence confessing in order to try to get a break from the state on our cases."

The reader should also bear in mind that many, perhaps most, of the 85-plus freed death-row prisoners surely would have been executed if the appeals rules and US Supreme Court makeup of the present day had been in effect when the state hoped to kill them. Randall Adams, the subject of the documentary The Thin Blue Line, is a well-known example of a freed prisoner who wouldn't have survived had his frame-up occurred twenty years later than it did in the mid-70s.

Executed Innocents

 

[Flopper]

We can't trust government to control spending, levy equitable taxes, or control our boarders, yet we trust them to decide which citizens are to be killed.

Another reason I oppose the death penalty.

I oppose capital punishment, but not on humanitarian grounds. The cost is too high, its deterrent value is very questionable, and revenge is usually counterproductive.

Executions in the US cost 2.5 to 5 million dollars each. States like Californian could save $1 billion over five years by replacing the death penalty with permanent imprisonment. Each death penalty case in Texas costs taxpayers about $2.3 million. That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years.

The deterrent value has been argued for years. There have been many studies, but no clear proof that capital punishment really works as a deterrent.

Revenge often produces a chain of destructive acts and accomplishes nothing. Government executions teaches that malice, retaliation, and violence are appropriate means of handling problems. As a result, people particularly criminals are likely to apply the lesson in their daily lives.

Death Penalty*:*The High Cost of the Death Penalty
Costs of the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

 

[Unkotare]

If you cannot see the relation of the governor of Texas to capital punishment, you should not be on these boards. Go to an entertainment or sports board.

What about Obama and his relationship to it? He has the power to commute the sentence of anyone in any prison in the US. How often has he stopped them?

If you want to talk about Obama, we will talk about Obama, but do not use that as a deflestion away from Rick Perry.

Yeah! How dare you use a "deflestion!" Using a "deflestion" is completely out of bounds.


What the **** is a "deflestion"?

 

[Gadawg73]

We can't trust government to control spending, levy equitable taxes, or control our boarders, yet we trust them to decide which citizens are to be killed.

Another reason I oppose the death penalty.

I oppose capital punishment, but not on humanitarian grounds. The cost is too high, its deterrent value is very questionable, and revenge is usually counterproductive.

Executions in the US cost 2.5 to 5 million dollars each. States like Californian could save $1 billion over five years by replacing the death penalty with permanent imprisonment. Each death penalty case in Texas costs taxpayers about $2.3 million. That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years.

The deterrent value has been argued for years. There have been many studies, but no clear proof that capital punishment really works as a deterrent.

Revenge often produces a chain of destructive acts and accomplishes nothing. Government executions teaches that malice, retaliation, and violence are appropriate means of handling problems. As a result, people particularly criminals are likely to apply the lesson in their daily lives.

Death Penalty*:*The High Cost of the Death Penalty
Costs of the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

ditto

 

[Gadawg73]

What about Obama and his relationship to it? He has the power to commute the sentence of anyone in any prison in the US. How often has he stopped them?

If you want to talk about Obama, we will talk about Obama, but do not use that as a deflestion away from Rick Perry.

I was already forced to defend Perry from one idiot here, even though this thread is not about him. That left a sour taste in my mouth, so I am changing tactics. Every time someone tries to blame Perry for not stopping something he cannot stop I wall ask them why Obama did not stop something he can.

Exact same thing as the "Well Bush did this and that" crowd.

 

[taichiliberal]

Conversely, what's the acceptable number of criminals released back into society to continue perpetrating their crimes?

The premise of your questionis incorrect, as you are assuming that people on death row who are actually innocent of the crime accused are subsequently guilty of some other crime and will repeat said criminal activity if set free.

The man in question on this thread was INNOCENT WITH NO PREVIOUS CRIMINAL RECORD.

 

[Toro]

Just wondered what an acceptable number would be for "executing innocent people by mistake" before reviewing the death penalty? What brings this up is the proud record of Texas.

From what I've seen there have been 12 people released from Death Row in Texas. There has also been 755 executed. Now ASSUMING that EVERY ONE of the executed were, in fact, guilty as charged (highly unlikely) that would bring the average to about 1.6% faulty conviction rate.

So what say you? Is more than 1 out of 100 "mistakes" an acceptable number? Would that be considered "collateral damage"?

State by State Database | Death Penalty Information Center

DA who convicted man freed from death row:

NCADP Affiliate: Texas Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty

.

Zero.

The government is not infallible. Humans are not infallible. One has to be beyond naive and gullible to believe otherwise.

The government can always reverse an injustice if someone is alive. You can't if someone is dead.

It is better to allow a guilty man to walk free than it is to condemn an innocent man.

 

[taichiliberal]

Perry did not have an innocent man executed. The FACTS state otherwise....or did you not read the links I provided. The state of Texas tried the man, and proved he was guilty, After that all of his appeals failed, including his appeal to the Supreme Court of the United States. That made his execution inevitable under Texas law unless the board of Pardons and Paroles recommended clemency. Since they never did Perry could not have prevented it if he wanted to.

Once again, you live up to your screen name. If you had bothered to actually READ the information provided, you would have noted that EVIDENCE WAS WITHHELD in the case....evidence that would have kept the man from being executed for a crime he didn't commit. THAT is what was coming out of the review of the case, and THAT is why Perry REPLACED all pertinent people in that review process in order to maintain the legitimacy of his signing off on that execution. Oh, and PLEASE do some decent research, as it's pretty common knowledge that the Governor of Texas HAS THE FINAL SAY ON ALL STATE EXECUTIONS BY GRANTING A 30 DAY "STAY" PERIOD. Perry did no such thing in this case.

If you want to go after him at least go after him for what he did, which was work to hide the facts that would have proven the state was wrong. I really hate it when idiots force me to defend politicians.

It cracks me up when blowhard neocon know-it-alls shoot off their mouths based on half truths, beliefs and willful ignorance. If this Quantumly stupid Windbag actually read the links, he would have known that I am indeed going after Perry ON BOTH COUNTS.

But what else can one expect from a Quantum Windbag?

My understanding is that Perry had nothing to do with the arrest, prosecution, the evidence, voir dire, depos, witnesses, examinations & crosses, summations, determining verdict or deciding on punishment. Also, I believe he is not even allowed to reverse a death penalty decision unless some board recommends it and sends it to him for approval.
Other than that, it was all his fault...

Your "understanding" of the chain of events is in error, which would lead to your flawed conclusions. Once more:

Perry DID NOT grant a 30 day stay, despite pleas from the defense pointing to the flaws in the prosecutions case.

Perry REPLACED KEY PERSONNEL who were in charge of reviewing this case, and who were pointing out withheld evidence and how that evidence along with closer examination of all evidence showed that the man was indeed innocent.

What YOU believe means little in leiu of the FACTS.

 

[taichiliberal]

It cracks me up when blowhard neocon know-it-alls shoot off their mouths based on half truths, beliefs and willful ignorance. If this Quantumly stupid Windbag actually read the links, he would have known that I am indeed going after Perry ON BOTH COUNTS.

But what else can one expect from a Quantum Windbag?

You were talking about clemency, and I pointed out Perry doesn't have the power to grant it without a recommendation. What half truths am I using?

Stop lying, you silly Windbag. YOU keep trying to replace what I wrote and what the information I source actually states. Once again, the chronology of the posts will always be your undoing, as all people have to do is click the arrow and backtrack the discussion. Perry has the power to grant a 30-day stay based on request from defending...that is not clemency, which would be commutation to a lesser sentence than the death penalty. He didn't do that, and they tried to cover up his error by replacing a review board with people who wouldn't question his decision. Deal with it, or your case, don't and live up to your screen name.

 

[taichiliberal]

The governor can issue a single 30 day stay of execution. That will not prevent an execution, which means he cannot stop it even if he wants to. Most of the executive power in Texas lies with the bureaucracy, not the governor.

The stay of execution gives the defense time to get a review....if they have enough evidence to raise reasonable doubt, the death penalty can be lifted, and a full court review can be enacted.

Perry has only issued 4 stays during his signing off on those 200 some odd executions. And given the FACT that Perry REPLACED the review people when it looked like a major **** up killed a man, I dare say the Teabagger Golden Boy has lost his sheen.

The defense cannot raise reasonable doubt on appeal, all they can do is point out procedural errors in the trial record.

That's the whole point of the appeal, you picayune Windbag! You can't raise reasonable doubt is you don't first point out procedural errors....like withheld evidence, which was part of the case here. Perry DID NOT grant the stay....he was WRONG, and then tried to cover up his error, which cost an innocent man his life.

The review by the FSC would not have discovered any new evidence because all the pertinent evidence was already known. That's YOUR story....NOT what the defense lawyers were saying. If you can provide proof of what you say beyond your opinion, supposition and conjecture, then please do. That evidence was actually brought out by the Project Innocence, and had been brought to the attention of the court. The court decided it did not merit a new trial. So by YOUR timetable, the request for 30-day stay was NOT brought by the defense, but by the PI people? And that Neither moved the court for a new trial, thus Perry is off the hook. Naah-unnh, my dishonest Windbag, you can't prove that beyond your supposition and conjecture....Perry makes that final decision on the 30-day stay by reviewing the information presented....HIS DECISION. HE DECLINED TO GIVE THE STAY. And then when a review board was going to point out his gross error, Perry replaced them! Deal with it.

Feel free to blame Perry for what he did, which was to replace the members of the SFC so that they would not issue a finding of negligence. Do not blame him for the fact that the court decided not to grant the appeal.

It's not blame, my dishonest Windbag, but FACT. By your revision, Perry is merely a stooge who rubber stamps what the courts tell him to. Sorry to inform you, that is not the case, and the 30 day stay DID reach his desk for approval or denial. His decision, whether YOU like it or not. If you can logically and factually prove otherwise please do. If not, then don't waste everyone's time repeating the SOS in various forms.
Didn't you just post something about half truths and idiots?

And you didn't take heed...not surprising. Carry on.

 

[taichiliberal]

this thread as i read it was posted

> What's An Acceptable Number Of Innocent People Being Executed?

that was the of intention of the O P
some half wit highjacked it to start a rant about rick perry

its easy keep to the original question
go take your perry hating to another thread

Newsflash for ya, Johnny......if you've got a Presidential wanna-be trying to cover up the FACT that he sent an innocent man to his death willy-nilly, then inclusion of this man's case is VERY relevent to the discussion at hand.

 

[Gadawg73]

We just had one lose the last appeal he had today here and he dies tomorrow.
The ****** is guilty as sin and deserves to die. However, the tens of millions spent on his ass to get this far was absurd. But when you kill someone you have to go through the hoops.
Death penalty is never a good idea as it does not deter.

 

[taichiliberal]

We just had one lose the last appeal he had today here and he dies tomorrow.
The ****** is guilty as sin and deserves to die. However, the tens of millions spent on his ass to get this far was absurd. But when you kill someone you have to go through the hoops.
Death penalty is never a good idea as it does not deter.

Please give details as to what specific case you are referring to.

 

[rdean]

I don't know but whatever it is, I suspect Republicans will think it's not enough.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't know but whatever it is, I suspect Republicans will think it's not enough.

I, on the other hand, know exactly what it is.

I also know that most people, both Republican and Democrat, disagree with me, and think that it is acceptable to kill an occasional person who is not guilty of what he is on death row for, simply because he is probably guilty of something.

 

[Bfgrn]

I don't know but whatever it is, I suspect Republicans will think it's not enough.

I, on the other hand, know exactly what it is.

I also know that most people, both Republican and Democrat, disagree with me, and think that it is acceptable to kill an occasional person who is not guilty of what he is on death row for, simply because he is probably guilty of something.

That is sick. Death because you are guilty of 'something'?

 

[rdean]

I don't know but whatever it is, I suspect Republicans will think it's not enough.

I, on the other hand, know exactly what it is.

I also know that most people, both Republican and Democrat, disagree with me, and think that it is acceptable to kill an occasional person who is not guilty of what he is on death row for, simply because he is probably guilty of something.

That is sick. Death because you are guilty of 'something'?

Don't get mad at him. He's just thinking out loud what the vast majority of Republicans are thinking.