What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

[PMZ]

What has happened over the last 30 to 50 years has been the fire sale of America. I have been around since Harry Truman was in the White House. I witnessed the fire sale.

Years ago, America was a series of local communities populated with small locally owned and operated businesses. Most were family businesses that were passed down from father to son. Need a loaf of bread...choose among a variety of bakeries...Want to cook a nice roast for Sunday dinner...the local butcher knew exactly what cut to sell you. Need new clothes, choose among a variety of clothing stores from custom tailors to casual wear. Have a leaky faucet...the local hardware store owner would not only sell you the parts, he'd walk you through installation.

And often, the local grocer knew you by name, where you lived and even what day you got paid. Why? Because he would have a kid that delivered groceries to your home and there was a relationship created with enough trust where you could run a tab at the store. Oh, hi Mary, need a gallon of milk. I'll put it on your tab, see you on Friday.

These businesses not only employed many in the community, they served as a source of talent where we found our civic leaders. Mayors, councilmen, councilwomen, and other public servants.

All that began to change when the big box stores started to move in. It began with large grocery chains. Some little deli, corner stores, butchers, and bakers were able to survive doing late evening and Sunday business (the large stores closed early and were closed on Sundays). And by offering real quality products and service.

Then the local five and dime stores were invaded by the K-Marts of the world, and eventually the death sentence to local businesses, the Walmart stores.

We live in a country with cheap products, but the price was MUCH higher than we ever knew. The price was America itself.

Huh! There are some good thinkers on this forum. You are adding another whammy to America's loss of really all manufacturing jobs to poor countries: all the small stores went to large corporations, and they are getting nothing but huger and huger: I buy essentially everything but groceries from Amazon now, and just have it sent to the house.

This is actually close to the future envisioned by Edward Bellamy in 1885, his futuristic novel "Looking Backward," about the utopian year 2000, when people didn't have to waste time going to stores. They would just look up what they wanted and send for it.

However, you are right, of course, that it's a double whammy: all the manufacturing jobs are gone and all the small stores are gone, with so many of the clerk jobs gone with the much greater efficiency of an Amazon, or a Daedalus, or any Internet shop.

I am beginning to see that high unemployment really is systemic now because where ARE the jobs, you know? Could get to be a problem.

Creative destruction. Change, it's always with us. I'm not sure it does a lot of good to protest change.

We used to know that the essence of America was the middle class. Workers. Creators of wealth. The majority of us who worked and raised their families and attended baseball games and church.

Then supply side economics got preached telling us that we were wrong about that and we really owe it all to the rich. That somehow, the rich supported all growth and good and, after all, the middle class supported those communist unions.

And the poor, all lazy bums who preferred poverty to work.

We went from a middle of the road culture to an extremist culture.

What have we learned since then? Supply side economics led to fiscal disaster. Huge debt. Enriching the wealthy at the expense of the middle class led to extreme wealth inequity, the badge of third world countries and banana republics everywhere. And stubborn unemployment. And way more poor, that, as I said, we were told, prefer poverty to work.

Those trends are now turning around now thanks to a President who supports the rebirth of the middle class. And the avoidance of a potential President who only wanted to preside over the wealthy.

But the preachers drone on 24/7/365 trying to complete the destruction that they started. And some minds can't be changed back.

So we are now testing our democracy to see if it can save us from extremism.

It has started to but vigilance is still required. The recruiting of middle class syncophants by the wealthy is still active and supported by the GOP.

 

[Circe]

Then supply side economics got preached telling us that we were wrong about that and we really owe it all to the rich. That somehow, the rich supported all growth and good and, after all, the middle class supported those communist unions.

The unions are certainly communist. The communist, greedy, violent unions is exactly what led to globalization and the relocation of all American manufacturing to foreign countries!! It is basically unions that started the terrible decline of this country.

And stubborn unemployment. And way more poor, that, as I said, we were told, prefer poverty to work.

As I said above, the loss of both manufacturing and small stores means there are fewer and fewer jobs. if it weren't for service economy make-work, there'd be even fewer. As for the poor, the poor in the ghetto DO prefer poverty or at least drug trading and prostitution to real work. We know that for sure: that's why we hire Mexicans to do the real work, what little is left, because blacks won't or can't do it.

Those trends are now turning around now thanks to a President who supports the rebirth of the middle class.

Obama has done absolutely nothing whatsoever except cripple business yet further with his Obamacare fiasco. There is a lame recovery that has nothing to do with Obama, that is all, and it's shaky.

So we are now testing our democracy to see if it can save us from extremism.

No, it can't. The left will start the revolution and the right will win it: that is what is happening all over the world and is most common thru history.

It has started to but vigilance is still required.

I can't imagine why you think anything is getting better. It is plainly getting worse, I would say.

 

[PMZ]

Then supply side economics got preached telling us that we were wrong about that and we really owe it all to the rich. That somehow, the rich supported all growth and good and, after all, the middle class supported those communist unions.

The unions are certainly communist. The communist, greedy, violent unions is exactly what led to globalization and the relocation of all American manufacturing to foreign countries!! It is basically unions that started the terrible decline of this country.

And stubborn unemployment. And way more poor, that, as I said, we were told, prefer poverty to work.

As I said above, the loss of both manufacturing and small stores means there are fewer and fewer jobs. if it weren't for service economy make-work, there'd be even fewer. As for the poor, the poor in the ghetto DO prefer poverty or at least drug trading and prostitution to real work. We know that for sure: that's why we hire Mexicans to do the real work, what little is left, because blacks won't or can't do it.



Obama has done absolutely nothing whatsoever except cripple business yet further with his Obamacare fiasco. There is a lame recovery that has nothing to do with Obama, that is all, and it's shaky.

So we are now testing our democracy to see if it can save us from extremism.

No, it can't. The left will start the revolution and the right will win it: that is what is happening all over the world and is most common thru history.

It has started to but vigilance is still required.

I can't imagine why you think anything is getting better. It is plainly getting worse, I would say.

I think that your post defines better than I can what we have to and can and have recently, used the great gift of America, democracy, to defeat.

You and your made for media dogma has been demonstrably destructive to America and we simply can no longer afford it empowered in our government. It will take a few dozen generations to pay off your unpaid bills, and we'll never get back the lives lost to your holy wars, and to the extreme weather catastrophies fueled by your denial of science, but we can, and will, keep you on the sidelines while we rebuild.

 

[Circe]

we'll never get back the lives lost to your holy wars, and to the extreme weather catastrophies fueled by your denial of science, but we can, and will, keep you on the sidelines while we rebuild.

Yeah, Oklahoma never had tornadoes before Bush caused them, right?

This is the kind of crazy that makes me grateful we are able to keep everything nuts the left proposes blocked in Congress.

You don't seem to be very successful in keeping us on the sidelines, minority.

 

[PMZ]

we'll never get back the lives lost to your holy wars, and to the extreme weather catastrophies fueled by your denial of science, but we can, and will, keep you on the sidelines while we rebuild.

Yeah, Oklahoma never had tornadoes before Bush caused them, right?

This is the kind of crazy that makes me grateful we are able to keep everything nuts the left proposes blocked in Congress.

You don't seem to be very successful in keeping us on the sidelines, minority.

No question that I'm way to the left of you, but across the spectrum of Americans, I'm a centrist. I'm what Republicans were before Dixiecrats offered the GOP votes in return for the party's soul. And offered a billion dollars to Rush to produce words that made Dixiecrat self centeredness politically correct.

Wealth comes from skilled work. That's what the middle class does for a living. Their living is what supply side economics turned into income from wealth as compared to income from work.

We are on the road to restoring the middle class economy. To restoring the dignity of producing compared to the aristocracy of having.

Of course, none of that can be credited to you, nor will our continued recovery, from you.

Government of, by, and for the people. That's the way that it works.

 

[Circe]

We are on the road to restoring the middle class economy. To restoring the dignity of producing compared to the aristocracy of having.

Of course, none of that can be credited to you, nor will our continued recovery, from you.

Government of, by, and for the people. That's the way that it works.

No, the way it works is government of, by, and for the government.

While feeding on taxes coerced from the citizens. So it just gets bigger and bigger till it eats everything.

I can't see any sign of restoring any middle class economy. It continues to go down, down, down and jobs continue to be lost and education is the pits, so I suspect you are imagining this improvement you cite: you don't cite any data, anyway.

The only thing improving is a big stock market bubble blowing up. And I don't have a good feeling about that, when it explodes.

 

[itfitzme]

...
We live in a country with cheap products, but the price was MUCH higher than we ever knew. The price was America itself.

...
I am beginning to see that high unemployment really is systemic now because where ARE the jobs, you know? Could get to be a problem.

Creative destruction. Change, it's always with us. I'm not sure it does a lot of good to protest change.

We used to know that the essence of America was the middle class. Workers. Creators of wealth. The majority of us who worked and raised their families and attended baseball games and church.*

Then supply side economics got preached telling us that we were wrong about that and we really owe it all to the rich. That somehow, the rich supported all growth and good and, after all, the middle class supported those communist unions.*
....
We went from a middle of the road culture to an extremist culture.*
...
Huge debt.

The typical colloquial presentation of "supply side" economics is a misnomer, a non-sequiter, a red herring. *As used, the implications are those of "always", "only", "or", and the ubiquitous notion that if B sometimes increases with A, it always increases with A. *Worse yet, even if properly understood, it is like putting air in the boat trailer tire to solve the problem of a leaky hull. It's like going to the grocery store to rent a tuxedo. It's like leaving the doors open during a snowstorm and turning up the heater because the house is too cold.

There are a number of ways that investment capital becomes available to the markets; pension, personal savings, business loans are a few. *

The notion that all businesses must, or even can, realize a long run profit is mistaken. *Small businesses in local competetative markets, especially *in rural and suburban areas, have little opportunity to do so.

The notion that the economy can run on no debt, even very limited debt, is in error. This is a function of the nature of money.*

A more appropriate way for the economy to function is for businesses to borrow investment capital that has; accumulated through personal savings and; been made available through the reserve system. *The first would be nice, the second is required. Currently, in some manner, for there to be economic growth, the second is always required somewhere in the economy.

The fact that the monetary system *in the US, Canada, and Europe, requires the existance of debt is hard to concieve of and difficult to accept. The way money functions, as a socio-economic tool, is such that this is the best way, the only reasonable way for a monetary based economy to run. (I am not sure about the middle eastern countries like Iran.)

Debt, borrowing, only means that some percentage of the nominal principle is due in return. Real and *nominal interest rates can be positive or negative, beyond or between -1 and 1. There is no requirement that all returns be positive.

Currently, the discount rate at .75%, fed funds rate at .25%, *and PPI at about 2, the CPI at ~2.5, and the change in wage index at ~3. *The real rate of return on business credit could be negative. The Fed is making this possible.

The problem is that small business loan rates are 6 to 7%. Personal savings rates are ~.01% with CDs at ~.17%. And*the year to date change in the S&P is > 14%.

For a monetary system that requires continuous borrowing to maintain and increase growth, the only real growth imcentive is currently in speculative assets.

This is pointed out in the recent report published by the*BSI - BANK FOR INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS.

"Markets under the spell of monetary easing"

"Further monetary easing helped market participants to tune out signs of a global growth slowdown. The spate of negative economic news between mid-March and mid-April did little to interrupt the rise of equity prices in advanced economies. Further policy easing, followed promptly by an improved US outlook in early May, boosted market sentiment and lifted the main equity indices to new highs."

* Do you see*what I'm saying??*

Drill down

Central Bank Group Warns Markets 'Under a Spell' - ABC News

Bank for International Settlements

BIS Quarterly Review, June 2013
Markets under the spell of monetary easing
http://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt1306a.pdf

 

[Circe]

Do you see*what I'm saying??[/u]*

Well, are you saying that the only thing puffing up this economy is a stock market bubble due to Bernanke's money pump? I would agree with that.

 

[itfitzme]

Is it worth the effort to even attempt explaining how completely wrong the following statements are?

I.

The unions are certainly communist.*

II.

The communist, greedy, violent unions is exactly what led to globalization and the relocation of all American manufacturing to foreign countries!!*

III.

It is basically unions that started the terrible decline of this country.

IV.

*As for the poor, the poor in the ghetto DO prefer poverty or at least drug trading and prostitution to real work.*

V.

We know that for sure: that's why we hire Mexicans to do the real work, what little is left, because blacks won't or can't do it.

VI.

Obama has done absolutely nothing whatsoever except cripple business yet further with his Obamacare fiasco.*

VII.

The left will start the revolution and the right will win it: that is what is happening all over the world and is most common thru history.

 

[itfitzme]

Do you see*what I'm saying??[/u]*

Well, are you saying that the only thing puffing up this economy is a stock market bubble due to Bernanke's money pump? I would agree with that.

Apparenly not.

 

[Circe]

Apparenly not.

Hey, if you can't communicate, you can't communicate. That's okay with me; some can, some can't.

 

[Circe]

I.

The unions are certainly communist.*

II.

The communist, greedy, violent unions is exactly what led to globalization and the relocation of all American manufacturing to foreign countries!!*

III.


IV.


V.


VI.

Obama has done absolutely nothing whatsoever except cripple business yet further with his Obamacare fiasco.*

VII.

The left will start the revolution and the right will win it: that is what is happening all over the world and is most common thru history.

Is it worth the effort to even attempt explaining how completely wrong the [preceding] statements are?

No, I'd give it a miss if I were you. You have a problem with putting a lot of wild asterisks all over your text, I can't imagine why; and your communication is very unclear. You need to learn to write better before you try such a long refutation as a point-by-point. I'd suggest no asterisks, write short (I know, I'm a fine one to talk), check your spelling carefully because you lose points with bad spelling, and minimize your number of similes per comparison: you created good similies, but one per issue is enough. I think you have a lot of potential, but the writing needs to be clearer.

 

[Bfgrn]

What has happened over the last 30 to 50 years has been the fire sale of America. I have been around since Harry Truman was in the White House. I witnessed the fire sale.

Years ago, America was a series of local communities populated with small locally owned and operated businesses. Most were family businesses that were passed down from father to son. Need a loaf of bread...choose among a variety of bakeries...Want to cook a nice roast for Sunday dinner...the local butcher knew exactly what cut to sell you. Need new clothes, choose among a variety of clothing stores from custom tailors to casual wear. Have a leaky faucet...the local hardware store owner would not only sell you the parts, he'd walk you through installation.

And often, the local grocer knew you by name, where you lived and even what day you got paid. Why? Because he would have a kid that delivered groceries to your home and there was a relationship created with enough trust where you could run a tab at the store. Oh, hi Mary, need a gallon of milk. I'll put it on your tab, see you on Friday.

These businesses not only employed many in the community, they served as a source of talent where we found our civic leaders. Mayors, councilmen, councilwomen, and other public servants.

All that began to change when the big box stores started to move in. It began with large grocery chains. Some little deli, corner stores, butchers, and bakers were able to survive doing late evening and Sunday business (the large stores closed early and were closed on Sundays). And by offering real quality products and service.

Then the local five and dime stores were invaded by the K-Marts of the world, and eventually the death sentence to local businesses, the Walmart stores.

We live in a country with cheap products, but the price was MUCH higher than we ever knew. The price was America itself.

Huh! There are some good thinkers on this forum. You are adding another whammy to America's loss of really all manufacturing jobs to poor countries: all the small stores went to large corporations, and they are getting nothing but huger and huger: I buy essentially everything but groceries from Amazon now, and just have it sent to the house.

This is actually close to the future envisioned by Edward Bellamy in 1885, his futuristic novel "Looking Backward," about the utopian year 2000, when people didn't have to waste time going to stores. They would just look up what they wanted and send for it.

However, you are right, of course, that it's a double whammy: all the manufacturing jobs are gone and all the small stores are gone, with so many of the clerk jobs gone with the much greater efficiency of an Amazon, or a Daedalus, or any Internet shop.

I am beginning to see that high unemployment really is systemic now because where ARE the jobs, you know? Could get to be a problem.

Creative destruction. Change, it's always with us. I'm not sure it does a lot of good to protest change.

Good post. Efficiency is not always a panacea. It can leave a void in customer service. And most of all, personal interaction becomes obsolete.

The changes I speak of did not happen over night. It was a slow death. I watched it happen, I am even guilty of helping it along. You sometimes don't appreciate things until they're gone. I still miss the wonderful bakeries and butcher shops. In our neighborhood there was a German butcher shop. It was like walking into 1920. He made his own beef jerky, and there was a string that ran across the whole back of the store. He would hang the beef jerky to cure.

There was a sense of community, a neighborhood was filled with neighbors, it was not a hood. I grew up in the suburbs, but my parents grew up in city neighborhoods, where every house had a front porch. People got to know their neighbors and conversed with people walking by. If you needed to run an errand, you had no qualms about asking you neighbor to keep an eye on your children. They had the same authority as the parents and the kids knew it.

One thing I noticed recently, when a group of young people walk down the street, none of them are interacting with each other, they all have 'personal' devices. They interact with a cell phone or ipad.

It really is a creative destruction

 

[PMZ]

We are on the road to restoring the middle class economy. To restoring the dignity of producing compared to the aristocracy of having.

Of course, none of that can be credited to you, nor will our continued recovery, from you.

Government of, by, and for the people. That's the way that it works.

No, the way it works is government of, by, and for the government.

While feeding on taxes coerced from the citizens. So it just gets bigger and bigger till it eats everything.

I can't see any sign of restoring any middle class economy. It continues to go down, down, down and jobs continue to be lost and education is the pits, so I suspect you are imagining this improvement you cite: you don't cite any data, anyway.

The only thing improving is a big stock market bubble blowing up. And I don't have a good feeling about that, when it explodes.

Business will fix what business broke. America's full employment. While they are doing that, goverment will keep those that business laid off afloat, so that the demand that business laid off with the workers, keeps business afloat.

Requires borrowing, but look how successful that borrowing has been as compared to Europe's austerity that you've been rooting for for the last five years.

Here's the danger. Business leaders will claim monumental rewards for fixing what they broke, when in truth, it was government that mitigated their disaster.

As all of this unfolds, Rush and Rupert will of course turn the volume up on what they are well paid to say, that all good comes from the wealthy, and all bad from the government. In fact as bad, they'll say, as Republicans are, Democrats are even worse.

We've heard it all before and even fell for it in 2000.

No more. Many of us learned from our mistakes. Some of us never will.

 

[beagle9]

What has happened over the last 30 to 50 years has been the fire sale of America. I have been around since Harry Truman was in the White House. I witnessed the fire sale.

Years ago, America was a series of local communities populated with small locally owned and operated businesses. Most were family businesses that were passed down from father to son. Need a loaf of bread...choose among a variety of bakeries...Want to cook a nice roast for Sunday dinner...the local butcher knew exactly what cut to sell you. Need new clothes, choose among a variety of clothing stores from custom tailors to casual wear. Have a leaky faucet...the local hardware store owner would not only sell you the parts, he'd walk you through installation.

And often, the local grocer knew you by name, where you lived and even what day you got paid. Why? Because he would have a kid that delivered groceries to your home and there was a relationship created with enough trust where you could run a tab at the store. Oh, hi Mary, need a gallon of milk. I'll put it on your tab, see you on Friday.

These businesses not only employed many in the community, they served as a source of talent where we found our civic leaders. Mayors, councilmen, councilwomen, and other public servants.

All that began to change when the big box stores started to move in. It began with large grocery chains. Some little deli, corner stores, butchers, and bakers were able to survive doing late evening and Sunday business (the large stores closed early and were closed on Sundays). And by offering real quality products and service.

Then the local five and dime stores were invaded by the K-Marts of the world, and eventually the death sentence to local businesses, the Walmart stores.

We live in a country with cheap products, but the price was MUCH higher than we ever knew. The price was America itself.

Huh! There are some good thinkers on this forum. You are adding another whammy to America's loss of really all manufacturing jobs to poor countries: all the small stores went to large corporations, and they are getting nothing but huger and huger: I buy essentially everything but groceries from Amazon now, and just have it sent to the house.

This is actually close to the future envisioned by Edward Bellamy in 1885, his futuristic novel "Looking Backward," about the utopian year 2000, when people didn't have to waste time going to stores. They would just look up what they wanted and send for it.

However, you are right, of course, that it's a double whammy: all the manufacturing jobs are gone and all the small stores are gone, with so many of the clerk jobs gone with the much greater efficiency of an Amazon, or a Daedalus, or any Internet shop.

I am beginning to see that high unemployment really is systemic now because where ARE the jobs, you know? Could get to be a problem.

Creative destruction. Change, it's always with us. I'm not sure it does a lot of good to protest change.

Nothing wrong with change, as long as it is done in a smart and balanced approach, but when greed entered into the picture quicker and quicker, America took a back seat to a balanced approach, and thus the apple cart was turned over completely. Balance is the key to everything, just as it is in budgets and all other sorts of structured things, but greed caused the balance to get way out of whack, therefore leaving hundreds of thousands caught with their britches down with no new belt to hold them up anymore, and no funds to buy the new belt in which closes many small businesses down in the end.

 

[beagle9]

We are on the road to restoring the middle class economy. To restoring the dignity of producing compared to the aristocracy of having.

Of course, none of that can be credited to you, nor will our continued recovery, from you.

Government of, by, and for the people. That's the way that it works.

No, the way it works is government of, by, and for the government.

While feeding on taxes coerced from the citizens. So it just gets bigger and bigger till it eats everything.

I can't see any sign of restoring any middle class economy. It continues to go down, down, down and jobs continue to be lost and education is the pits, so I suspect you are imagining this improvement you cite: you don't cite any data, anyway.

The only thing improving is a big stock market bubble blowing up. And I don't have a good feeling about that, when it explodes.

Business will fix what business broke. America's full employment. While they are doing that, goverment will keep those that business laid off afloat, so that the demand that business laid off with the workers, keeps business afloat.

Requires borrowing, but look how successful that borrowing has been as compared to Europe's austerity that you've been rooting for for the last five years.

Here's the danger. Business leaders will claim monumental rewards for fixing what they broke, when in truth, it was government that mitigated their disaster.

As all of this unfolds, Rush and Rupert will of course turn the volume up on what they are well paid to say, that all good comes from the wealthy, and all bad from the government. In fact as bad, they'll say, as Republicans are, Democrats are even worse.

We've heard it all before and even fell for it in 2000.

No more. Many of us learned from our mistakes. Some of us never will.

All fine and dandy, but what about those who have taken over the government, and while the nation is weak they want to transform it into something that no one else wants within a majority ? This is what happens in a vacum that has been created, wherefore we have those whom want to take advantage while they can now, even if it means destroying the nation in order to do so, and then rebuilding it afterwards, because they are willing to do it no matter what it takes. Talk about getting kicked when we are down, it's just so sad...

 

[Wyatt earp]

Wow one of my topics on the net makes over 500 comments? Thats weird they normaly die after five lol.. Good read guys and gals...thanks.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, the way it works is government of, by, and for the government.

While feeding on taxes coerced from the citizens. So it just gets bigger and bigger till it eats everything.

I can't see any sign of restoring any middle class economy. It continues to go down, down, down and jobs continue to be lost and education is the pits, so I suspect you are imagining this improvement you cite: you don't cite any data, anyway.

The only thing improving is a big stock market bubble blowing up. And I don't have a good feeling about that, when it explodes.

Business will fix what business broke. America's full employment. While they are doing that, goverment will keep those that business laid off afloat, so that the demand that business laid off with the workers, keeps business afloat.

Requires borrowing, but look how successful that borrowing has been as compared to Europe's austerity that you've been rooting for for the last five years.

Here's the danger. Business leaders will claim monumental rewards for fixing what they broke, when in truth, it was government that mitigated their disaster.

As all of this unfolds, Rush and Rupert will of course turn the volume up on what they are well paid to say, that all good comes from the wealthy, and all bad from the government. In fact as bad, they'll say, as Republicans are, Democrats are even worse.

We've heard it all before and even fell for it in 2000.

No more. Many of us learned from our mistakes. Some of us never will.

All fine and dandy, but what about those who have taken over the government, and while the nation is weak they want to transform it into something that no one else wants within a majority ? This is what happens in a vacum that has been created, wherefore we have those whom want to take advantage while they can now, even if it means destroying the nation in order to do so, and then rebuilding it afterwards, because they are willing to do it no matter what it takes. Talk about getting kicked when we are down, it's just so sad...

The Founders were in agreement that the United States of America must be strong enough to repel those who would seek to attack and defeat us. But, with few exceptions, they feared a too large, too powerful government as a threat to liberty; they did not fear a small government as a threat to liberty.

In a nutshell, modern American conservatiism allow just enough government to provide the common defense and allow for enough organiation and regulation so that the individual states can be one united nation without doing physical, economic, or environmental violence to each other. And other than that, the federal government was to acknowledge and defend our unalienable rights and then leave us strictly alone so that we could form whatever sorts of societies we wish to have and live our lives as we choose.

Such a system allowed for broad diversity and choices of lifestyle and allowed people of widely differing religious beliefs, cultural preferences, and every other sort of society we can imagine to do their own thing. Rights were recognized as anything that required no contribution or participation by any other. The people, not the federal government, would decide what laws, regulation, or contracts would be involved in everything else.

Take all the conservatives out of the equation, and I think it would leave a deep void that would almost certainly be filled by some form of government even more authoritarian that present and completely self serving. And the USA that the Founders gave us would be something far different from what it once was and/or is.

 

[Circe]

Business will fix what business broke. America's full employment. While they are doing that, goverment will keep those that business laid off afloat, so that the demand that business laid off with the workers, keeps business afloat.

So you assert, but some of us are asserting that most of the jobs are gone now. And public education doesn't even properly educate the smart kids, and the stupid kids are functionally illiterate, so of course there are no jobs for them. So I'd say we may be stuck at high unemployment. But we'll see; you could still be right. Five percent is full employment, let's remember, that's the magic number.

Requires borrowing, but look how successful that borrowing has been as compared to Europe's austerity that you've been rooting for for the last five years.

How do you know that? I haven't BEEN here for five years. You just got here. NO ONE in the world has been "rooting" for European austerity for five years: the recession only started in 2008 and this is spring of 2013.

This is exaggeration, hyperbole. I think you are given to rather Paris Commune-style "J'accuse!" statements.

Back off.

 

[Circe]

Rights were recognized as anything that required no contribution or participation by any other.

I particularly like this definition! I want to remember it.

I don't like these so-called "rights" to health care, living expenses, college, etc., etc. that basically mean a welfare state, not really rights at all.