What we have here is a failure.........

[TemplarKormac]

I couldn't disagree more. It is happening, and like I said before, if we accept it... or worse, cheer it on... it's definitely going to get worse. Much worse. You don't believe that because you trust the government and you scoff at what you consider "conspiracy theory"... I don' think it's conspiracy theory at all. It's not even debatable that there are powerful people with agendas that are subversive, unAmerican and authoritarian. But that's a topic for a thread of it's own.

I can't help but keep saying you are being drawn in by a false narrative. I don't trust the government, but in this case the government was correct in their actions. I don't need to be unnecessarily obtuse about it.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I get that. But I don't see it in a strictly one-sided way like you seem to. Frankly, I think some of those masked ICE thugs are dangerous and seem poorly trained.

Have you done any reading into what training they get? If not I can help you with that.

 

[buttercup]

I can't help but keep saying you are being drawn in by a false narrative. I don't trust the government, but in this case the government was correct in their actions. I don't need to be unnecessarily obtuse about it.

I wasn't talking about only this case. Gosh, is that all you got out of what I posted?

 

[TemplarKormac]

She was trying to leave. Before the shooting, in the first couple seconds of the video, you can clearly see her trying to drive away but yielding to cars going by, and waving them to pass. So, since she was trying to get the hell out of there, I don't see that as "obstructing ICE operations." Which is why what you said doesn't answer the question. Besides, I wasn't asking only about HER. I was asking if ICE can now detain / interrogate anyone, even when they don't appear to be an illegal or there is no reasonable suspicion they are illegal.

She accelerated in the direction of an ICE agent. Had she obeyed lawful commands, she wouldn't be dead! End of story.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I wasn't talking about only this case. Gosh, is that all you got out of what I posted?

Given the context of the thread, yes.

 

[BS Filter]

If you're talking about your reply in post #65, I would say that's circular reasoning. Before I go any further, I want to say that I don't see this whole topic (ICE) as a left-right issue. I'm saying that because I don't want to get the usual knee-jerk, binary-minded replies from those who seem unable to think outside that box. Now that that's out of the way....

Of course I agree with you that assaulting an ICE agent or true obstruction of LE is wrong, but I think this whole thing is much more nuanced than you and others are making it out to be. In the last year or so, I've been hearing numerous reports of ICE harassing American citizens, and numerous reports of ICE overreach including excessive force, wrongful detentions of US citizens and other lawless, aggressive tactics. So obviously Gestapo type behavior is eventually and inevitably going to bring about a response from people. People are going to protest. When you have masked men "kidnapping" people who were American citizens, and also impersonators posing as ICE....exploiting all this madness to commit crimes like robbery, sexual assault, etc, and also people who died while in custody....obviously all of that is going to create a lot of fear, distrust, anger, etc. How could it not?

So when I asked if they can stop and interrogate anyone, even when there's no reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal....your reply seems to be yes they can do that because people have demonstrated bad behavior... Well, did it ever occur to you that maybe people are purposely being instigated? I'll get into that a bit more later. For now, your implication that the behavior came out of nowhere for no reason is false, in my view. I don't know about you or Broke Loser....but most people don't want to live in an authoritarian police state, where anyone (even those of us who have a clean record and don't look like an illegal) can be manhandled, detained and treated like a criminal by some masked, trigger-happy jackbooted thug.




I already went over this one with BL, in post #79. So you can read my reply to him, I don't think I need to go through it again.




I get that. But I don't see it in a strictly one-sided way like you seem to. Frankly, I think some of those masked ICE thugs are dangerous and seem poorly trained. I don't want to get off topic here, but in regard to the bigger picture... I really believe that all of this is part of a long-term plan by the ptsb to purposely create civil unrest, chaos, violence, etc. Why? It's an age-old tactic called Order out of Chaos. Used by corrupt powers. They create the chaos as an excuse to bring about "order." And that "order" is increasing authoritarianism, martial law, and eventually their entirely new system for the world. I think that's what is happening in our country right now.




I couldn't disagree more. It is happening, and like I said before, if we accept it... or worse, cheer it on... it's definitely going to get worse. Much worse. You don't believe that because you trust the government and you scoff at what you consider "conspiracy theory"... I don't think it's conspiracy theory at all. It's not even debatable that there are powerful people with agendas that are subversive, unAmerican and authoritarian. But that's a topic for a thread of it's own.

I believe you're taking to heart the propaganda from the left. The left is losing their future voters, so naturally they're going to blow up everything to make it sound just as you described. When people disrupt ICE doing their job they're going to be arrested and hurt. Why haven't I experienced anything like you described?

 

[TemplarKormac]

I wasn't talking about only this case. Gosh, is that all you got out of what I posted?

Also, in general the situation was out of hand. A more aggressive posture had to be taken.

 

[TemplarKormac]

She accelerated in the direction of an ICE agent. Had she obeyed lawful commands, she wouldn't be dead! End of story.

What's funny about that?

buttercup

She had a chance to live, and she blew it.

 

[buttercup]

I believe you're taking to heart the propaganda from the left. The left is losing their future voters, so naturally they're going to blow up everything to make it sound just as you described. When people disrupt ICE doing their job they're going to be arrested and hurt. Why haven't I experienced anything like you described?

You can believe that if you want. But I think you're letting your hatred of leftists cause you to disbelieve ANY reports of excessive force, wrongful detentions and other lawless or Gestapo-like behavior.

 

[buttercup]

What's funny about that?

buttercup

She had a chance to live, and she blew it.

It would take too long to explain why I think you're wrong. And based on your replies so far, I think there's no use in continuing this discussion... I don't want to offend you but I think you see it in a very naive, black and white way that is not the actual reality.

 

[BrokeLoser]

If you're talking about your reply in post #65, I would say that's circular reasoning. Before I go any further, I want to say that I don't see this whole topic (ICE) as a left-right issue. I'm saying that because I don't want to get the usual knee-jerk, binary-minded replies from those who seem unable to think outside that box. Now that that's out of the way....

Of course I agree with you that assaulting an ICE agent or true obstruction of LE is wrong, but I think this whole thing is much more nuanced than you and others are making it out to be. In the last year or so, I've been hearing numerous reports of ICE harassing American citizens, and numerous reports of ICE overreach including excessive force, wrongful detentions of US citizens and other lawless, aggressive tactics. So obviously Gestapo type behavior is eventually and inevitably going to bring about a response from people. People are going to protest. When you have masked men "kidnapping" people who were American citizens, and also impersonators posing as ICE....exploiting all this madness to commit crimes like robbery, sexual assault, etc, and also people who died while in custody....obviously all of that is going to create a lot of fear, distrust, anger, etc. How could it not?

So when I asked if they can stop and interrogate anyone, even when there's no reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal....your reply seems to be yes they can do that because people have demonstrated bad behavior... Well, did it ever occur to you that maybe people are purposely being instigated? I'll get into that a bit more later. For now, your implication that the behavior came out of nowhere for no reason is false, in my view. I don't know about you or Broke Loser....but most people don't want to live in an authoritarian police state, where anyone (even those of us who have a clean record and don't look like an illegal) can be manhandled, detained and treated like a criminal by some masked, trigger-happy jackbooted thug.




I already went over this one with BL, in post #79. So you can read my reply to him, I don't think I need to go through it again.




I get that. But I don't see it in a strictly one-sided way like you seem to. Frankly, I think some of those masked ICE thugs are dangerous and seem poorly trained. I don't want to get off topic here, but in regard to the bigger picture... I really believe that all of this is part of a long-term plan by the ptsb to purposely create civil unrest, chaos, violence, etc. Why? It's an age-old tactic called Order out of Chaos. Used by corrupt powers. They create the chaos as an excuse to bring about "order." And that "order" is increasing authoritarianism, martial law, and eventually their entirely new system for the world. I think that's what is happening in our country right now.




I couldn't disagree more. It is happening, and like I said before, if we accept it... or worse, cheer it on... it's definitely going to get worse. Much worse. You don't believe that because you trust the government and you scoff at what you consider "conspiracy theory"... I don't think it's conspiracy theory at all. It's not even debatable that there are powerful people with agendas that are subversive, unAmerican and authoritarian. But that's a topic for a thread of it's own.

I wasn't talking about only this case. Gosh, is that all you got out of what I posted?

You said a lot but what we all heard is; “I detest cause and effect” and we think those are words of the illogical and insane.
Tell us this; how do you suppose a willing government working for the right people can remove 50 million illegal aliens swiftly and efficiently by operating politely, passively, without extreme ambition, rigor and aggression?

 

[Concerned American]

If you're talking about your reply in post #65, I would say that's circular reasoning. Before I go any further, I want to say that I don't see this whole topic (ICE) as a left-right issue. I'm saying that because I don't want to get the usual knee-jerk, binary-minded replies from those who seem unable to think outside that box. Now that that's out of the way....

Of course I agree with you that assaulting an ICE agent or true obstruction of LE is wrong, but I think this whole thing is much more nuanced than you and others are making it out to be. In the last year or so, I've been hearing numerous reports of ICE harassing American citizens, and numerous reports of ICE overreach including excessive force, wrongful detentions of US citizens and other lawless, aggressive tactics. So obviously Gestapo type behavior is eventually and inevitably going to bring about a response from people. People are going to protest. When you have masked men "kidnapping" people who were American citizens, and also impersonators posing as ICE....exploiting all this madness to commit crimes like robbery, sexual assault, etc, and also people who died while in custody....obviously all of that is going to create a lot of fear, distrust, anger, etc. How could it not?

So when I asked if they can stop and interrogate anyone, even when there's no reasonable suspicion that someone is an illegal....your reply seems to be yes they can do that because people have demonstrated bad behavior... Well, did it ever occur to you that maybe people are purposely being instigated? I'll get into that a bit more later. For now, your implication that the behavior came out of nowhere for no reason is false, in my view. I don't know about you or Broke Loser....but most people don't want to live in an authoritarian police state, where anyone (even those of us who have a clean record and don't look like an illegal) can be manhandled, detained and treated like a criminal by some masked, trigger-happy jackbooted thug.




I already went over this one with BL, in post #79. So you can read my reply to him, I don't think I need to go through it again.




I get that. But I don't see it in a strictly one-sided way like you seem to. Frankly, I think some of those masked ICE thugs are dangerous and seem poorly trained. I don't want to get off topic here, but in regard to the bigger picture... I really believe that all of this is part of a long-term plan by the ptsb to purposely create civil unrest, chaos, violence, etc. Why? It's an age-old tactic called Order out of Chaos. Used by corrupt powers. They create the chaos as an excuse to bring about "order." And that "order" is increasing authoritarianism, martial law, and eventually their entirely new system for the world. I think that's what is happening in our country right now.




I couldn't disagree more. It is happening, and like I said before, if we accept it... or worse, cheer it on... it's definitely going to get worse. Much worse. You don't believe that because you trust the government and you scoff at what you consider "conspiracy theory"... I don't think it's conspiracy theory at all. It's not even debatable that there are powerful people with agendas that are subversive, unAmerican and authoritarian. But that's a topic for a thread of it's own.

As long as there are millions of illegal invaders in this country, ICE is justified in their actions. Whenever LEGAL citizens have been detained by ICE, ICE has often been obstructed from doing their jobs (set-up?) The legal citizens that you haven't heard about have been released. Your claim that you don't see this in a binary view, is a bit disingenuous as it is a binary issue--you have not attempted to find middle ground and immediately went to the progressive narrative. The case of Ms. Good is clear. She was a trained agitator and she is responsible for her own demise.

 

[buttercup]

You said a lot but what we all heard is; “I detest cause and effect” and we think those are words of the illogical and insane.
Tell us this; how do you suppose a willing government working for the right people can remove 50 million illegal aliens swiftly and efficiently by operating politely, passively, without extreme ambition, rigor and aggression?

I've already shared my thoughts on the illegal immigration issue... so many times. What you don't seem to get (or maybe you just don't care) is that illegal immigration is the issue being used to roll out tyranny.

And it's by design. I've been over this so many times. It's called Problem - Reaction -Solution. They create the problem, to bring about a reaction from the public, and then they bring in the "solution." And the solution is ALWAYS more authoritarianism, and unAmerican Orwellian agendas. And that's happening but you either don't see it or you don't care.

You will care eventually, but when it's too late.

 

[BrokeLoser]

buttercup so we can better understand the reason for your nonsensical position…Does your lineage extend to our south?

 

[buttercup]

buttercup so we can better understand the reason for your nonsensical position…Does your lineage extend to our south?

So caring about liberty, individual rights, and an encroaching police state is nonsensical to you? That tells me everything I need to know about you. But I already knew it anyway.

Sorry but honestly talking to you about this is a waste of my time. I will pray for you though.

 

[Concerned American]

I've already shared my thoughts on the illegal immigration issue... so many times. What you don't seem to get (or maybe you just don't care) is that illegal immigration is the issue being used to roll out tyranny.

And it's by design. I've been over this so many times. It's called Problem - Reaction -Solution. They create the problem, to bring about a reaction from the public, and then they bring in the "solution." And the solution is ALWAYS more authoritarianism, and unAmerican Orwellian agendas. And that's happening but you either don't see it or you don't care.

You will care eventually, but when it's too late.

The problem was brought in with SURGE THE BORDER. This response is because the country has been illegally invaded and this issue was created by the left. Until the invasion is resolved, IMHO, the ends justify the means and the left bears complete responsibility. To return to the topic, Ms. Good was performing a seditious action and assaulted an officer. She paid the price.

 

[BrokeLoser]

I've already shared my thoughts on the illegal immigration issue... so many times. What you don't seem to get (or maybe you just don't care) is that illegal immigration is the issue being used to roll out tyranny.

And it's by design. I've been over this so many times. It's called Problem - Reaction -Solution. They create the problem, to bring about a reaction from the public, and then they bring in the "solution." And the solution is ALWAYS more authoritarianism, and unAmerican Orwellian agendas. And that's happening but you either don't see it or you don't care.

You will care eventually, but when it's too late.

I think you’ve concocted all kinds of weird stuff for your poor head to absorb…Could it be just that bad politicians do bad things and good politicians have to implement aggressive or TYRANNICAL policy to unwind the bullshit from the prior tyrants?

So caring about liberty, individual rights, and an encroaching police state is nonsensical to you? That tells me everything I need to know about you. But I already knew it anyway.

Sorry but honestly talking to you about this is a waste of my time. I will pray for you though.

I just think you try too hard to see extreme nuance is simple issues. This shit isn’t complicated. This administration has to be extreme to fix the extreme bullshit imposed by the prior admins….it’s just that simple.

 

[buttercup]

The problem was brought in with SURGE THE BORDER. This response is because the country has been illegally invaded and this issue was created by the left. Until the invasion is resolved, IMHO, the ends justify the means and the left bears complete responsibility. To return to the topic, Ms. Good was performing a seditious action and assaulted an officer. She paid the price.

The people who actually run this world don't care about left or right. They control both sides. Until you finally get that, you are actually helping the enemy achieve their subversive unAmerican authoritarian plan. And you just demonstrated that by saying "the ends justify the means" and your willingness to trade liberty for a false "security" which was exactly what our founders warned against.

 

[BrokeLoser]

The people who actually run this world don't care about left or right. They control both sides. Until you finally get that, you are actually helping the enemy achieve their subversive unAmerican authoritarian plan. And you just demonstrated that by saying "the ends justify the means" and your willingness to trade liberty for a false "security" which was exactly what our founders warned against.

Our Founders also “warned against” extending citizenship to dark people. You constitutionalists never seem to bring that part up though…weird huh?

dblack
TNHarley

 

[buttercup]

Our Founders also “warned against” extending citizenship to dark people. You constitutionalists never seem to bring that part up though…weird huh?
View attachment 1203220

dblack
TNHarley

Not at all what I was talking about. But man, you have a one track mind. Again, please post to someone else. I'm done here with you.