What objection can there be to solving simple poverty in a market friendly manner?

[danielpalos]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Almost...

Tell me what additional determinant I missed.

Labor productivity measures output per labor hour.

Labor productivity is largely driven by investment in capital, technological progress, and human capital development.

Business and government can increase labor productivity of workers by direct investing in or creating incentives for increases in technology and human or physical capital.

Labor Productivity: What It Is, How to Calculate & Improve It

Labor productivity is a term for the output of labor per hour.

www.investopedia.com

 

[Slade3200]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Right wingers only complain about the Poor not the Rich or corporate welfare would not be so institutional.

I don’t mind corporate welfare if it prevents jobs from being lost but there needs to be criteria. And if the executives are pocketing millions then tax bail outs don’t make much sense

The same could be said of non-corporate welfare. Fraud simply would make less sense.

Agreed. We need to do better with execution, efficiency and accountability on all fronts. I just saw that 11 billion was recently found to be fraudulently taken in unemployment benefits just in California. That should piss everybody off. I live in Cali. Took a 80% hit on one of my businesses last year and didn’t take a dime from the gov. Maybe that’s just me being stupid but seeing people taking 10s and 100s of thousands by ripping off unemployment is not right and our government needs to do a better job at limiting fraud and delivering to those who actually need it

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Do you think a corporation that makes many millions in profits every year should be paying workers $7 an hour?

Depends. How much value do they add?

That’s what I’m asking

If you add less than $7/hr in value, paying $7 is too much.

What would an example be of a job that is valued at less than $7 an hour. Note we are talking about a corporation making millions in profit

The guy shuffling across the office emptying little garbage cans into a bigger can.
The guy sweeping the floor or mopping the bathroom.

Inflation still happens, brooms and mops cost more, etc. Only the right wing believes productivity is constant and not affected by economic forces in any given economy.

Inflation still happens,

Any other non sequiturs you'd like to add?

Only the right wing believes productivity is constant

Only the left wing believes productivity should be independent from wages.

 

[Orangecat]

Only if you are special pleading and appealing to ignorance. How old are you?

Good god, you f'n idiot, I told you how old I am twice in this thread.
I guess I can add "special pleading" and "appealing to ignorance" to your list of BS dodge phrases.

 

[Blues Man]

Why should a salary be based on anything but the value of the labor to the employer or to the market in general?

As a person asking another for employment your labor is your product and you are asking an employer to buy that product at either and hourly wage or a salary.

What the person who is selling his labor pays for rent is not part of the equation nor should it be.

Because employers don't operate in a vacuum of special pleading, but in our first world market economy.

How to Establish Salary Ranges

1. Step 1: Determine the Organization's Compensation Philosophy. ...
2. Step 2: Conduct a Job Analysis. ...
3. Step 3: Group into Job Families. ...
4. Step 4: Rank Positions Using a Job Evaluation Method. ...
5. Step 5: Conduct Market Research. ...
6. Step 6: Create Job Grades. ...
7. Step 7: Create a Salary Range Based on Research.

How to Establish Salary Ranges

Follow these simple steps to create pay grades and salary ranges.

www.shrm.org

where in there does it say the employee's rent is part of the salary equation?

Market research that is influenced by market based arbitrage. Not everyone in a low skilled job is as ignorant as the right wing would prefer.

Show me where in that salary calculator where the employee's cost of living is a factor in the salary equation

• Step 5: Conduct Market Research. ...
• Step 7: Create a Salary Range Based on Research.

So are you saying market research includes the rent of an employee and that the rent an employee pays is part of the equation that determines his salary?

Yes, because it must be a consideration for labor asking for the wages they do.

no it isn't.

Market research is conducted on relevant factors that will affect costs of the production and distribution of a product or service and those factors include the cost of labor but not the expenses of an employee.

You are selling your labor and as the seller you can ask any price you want for that labor but there is no obligation for any employer to accept that offer.

You are responsible for making your labor worth enough so that an employer will pay you more for it.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I would still be spending money in my local economy and contributing to the multiplier effect.

Incentivizing your sloth is a negative multiplier.

Prove it. UC has already been measured with a multiplier of 2. For comparison and contrast regular government spending including defense spending only generates a multiplier of around .8.

UC has already been measured with a multiplier of 2.

For a short term program that employers pay for with a limited timeframe? Show me.

And then show me the multiplier when lazy bums like you get paid endlessly for never working.

That particular study was done with extended unemployment benefits. Besides, limited spending results in limited economic effect (of the multiplier). Why do you bother to complain about welfare for individuals if you have a problem with actually solving for simple poverty that is more efficient and therefore less of a Tax burden for You?

That particular study was done with extended unemployment benefits

Link?

 

[Slade3200]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Almost...

Tell me what additional determinant I missed.

That’s literally what I did in the explaination I posted after I wrote “almost...”

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

the value of the job is a factor of market based arbitrage

The value depends on the value added.

Link? You need to show how that is true in our market economy. Special pleading in this case can be considered a fallacy.

Value Added | Definition of Value Added by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Value Added

 

[danielpalos]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Right wingers only complain about the Poor not the Rich or corporate welfare would not be so institutional.

I don’t mind corporate welfare if it prevents jobs from being lost but there needs to be criteria. And if the executives are pocketing millions then tax bail outs don’t make much sense

The same could be said of non-corporate welfare. Fraud simply would make less sense.

Agreed. We need to do better with execution, efficiency and accountability on all fronts. I just saw that 11 billion was recently found to be fraudulently taken in unemployment benefits just in California. That should piss everybody off. I live in Cali. Took a 80% hit on one of my businesses last year and didn’t take a dime from the gov. Maybe that’s just me being stupid but seeing people taking 10s and 100s of thousands by ripping off unemployment is not right and our government needs to do a better job at limiting fraud and delivering to those who actually need it

And, that is not counting the fraud that happens with means tested welfare or crime that is no longer prosecuted because law enforcement raised value of crime they want to spend resources on.

 

[hadit]

IOW, the money first has to be taken out of the economy by taxes and borrowing. Until you stop pretending there is no opportunity cost associated with taking money out of the economy, you will never grasp why grand socialist schemes like that always fail.

It doesn't matter if the multiplier effect, 2 in this case, creates more economic activity? A multiplier of two means that for every one dollar spent, two dollars of economic activity is generated. You simply ignoring economics is worse (and more annoying) and means right wingers will fall for the general malfare but complain about the general welfare.

Dude, seriously, you're ignoring the fact that you are ELIMINATING the multiplier effect of that money that WOULD HAVE happened if you had not taken it out of the economy first. Before you can get the effect of 2 that you keep trumpeting, you have to first eliminate the effect that the money WOULD HAVE generated. Until you get that, you'll be nothing more than somebody spouting off on things you don't understand and will continue to be shown as massively ignorant.

Here's an easy example. A middle class family is ready to have new windows installed in their house. Before they can do it, however, Quid Pro raises their taxes and the money they had planned to spend is gone. Now, in your fantasy, this is a good thing because the money will be given to someone who doesn't want to work but will spend the money. DO YOU NOT SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?

I'll have to spell it out slowly so you can get it. In order to have the indigent person spend the money, you've prevented the family from spending it on new windows for their house. THAT is the opportunity cost, because now the window installer won't get paid, the workers won't spend their pay on things they want and need, and the capital won't circulate. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

 

[Papageorgio]

Amazing how much you post and how 99% of it is pure made up rubbish and lies. Ever find your link? Until you do, you entire thread and premise is FAKE NEWS!!!

You need more than ad hominems and appeals to ignorance. Valid arguments too difficult for the "hard work advocating" right wing?

Again, you failed to link your evidence, you have no proof and yet you claim I have no argument, hell you have provided no facts for your argument, so show me the link. No evidence of what you are claiming, so it is FAKE NEWS!!! You would have thought you would have learned by now.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Almost...

Tell me what additional determinant I missed.

That’s literally what I did in the explaination I posted after I wrote “almost...”

A government regulation does not determine the value of labor.

 

[danielpalos]

Do you think a corporation that makes many millions in profits every year should be paying workers $7 an hour?

Depends. How much value do they add?

That’s what I’m asking

If you add less than $7/hr in value, paying $7 is too much.

What would an example be of a job that is valued at less than $7 an hour. Note we are talking about a corporation making millions in profit

The guy shuffling across the office emptying little garbage cans into a bigger can.
The guy sweeping the floor or mopping the bathroom.

Inflation still happens, brooms and mops cost more, etc. Only the right wing believes productivity is constant and not affected by economic forces in any given economy.

Inflation still happens,

Any other non sequiturs you'd like to add?

Only the right wing believes productivity is constant

Only the left wing believes productivity should be independent from wages.

How is it a non sequitur? Explain it don't just claim, it is because I am on the right wing.
And, I did not say that. I also posted an answer from investopedia that claims right wingers are just plain wrong about productivity.

 

[Slade3200]

I have an idea. Why not have a min wage of $15 an hour where up to $10 an hour needs to be payable in cash and $5 an hour can be deferred and paid as stock options, or a profit share bonus... does a compromise along those lines peek the interest of any of you right wingers?

 

[danielpalos]

Only if you are special pleading and appealing to ignorance. How old are you?

Good god, you f'n idiot, I told you how old I am twice in this thread.
I guess I can add "special pleading" and "appealing to ignorance" to your list of BS dodge phrases.

I am fifty-seven. Respect your elders. Any shameless person can have nothing but fallacy.

 

[Slade3200]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Almost...

Tell me what additional determinant I missed.

That’s literally what I did in the explaination I posted after I wrote “almost...”

A government regulation does not determine the value of labor.

Of course it does. It’s called minimum wage

 

[danielpalos]

no it isn't.

Market research is conducted on relevant factors that will affect costs of the production and distribution of a product or service and those factors include the cost of labor but not the expenses of an employee.

You are selling your labor and as the seller you can ask any price you want for that labor but there is no obligation for any employer to accept that offer.

You are responsible for making your labor worth enough so that an employer will pay you more for it.

Yes, it is. Labor is subject to market based arbitraje. All factors of cost (for labor) must be considered by labor and therefore must affect the arbitraje in that market. Some potential labor may not seek employment with a given employer or a given market simply due to those factors; which affects that market in general.

 

[danielpalos]

the value of the job is a factor of market based arbitrage

The value depends on the value added.

Link? You need to show how that is true in our market economy. Special pleading in this case can be considered a fallacy.

Value Added | Definition of Value Added by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Value Added

That definition did not mention labor only articles (of production).

 

[Orangecat]

I am fifty-seven.

Thank you.

Respect your elders.

Age is just a number. I respect intellect and deductive logic, so you don't qualify. Sorry.

Any shameless person can have nothing but fallacy.

You got it right with this post:

How old are you?

Old enough to have a sense of shame for having nothing but fallacy instead of valid arguments.

Lulz. The best comedy does indeed write itself.

 

[danielpalos]

Again, you failed to link your evidence, you have no proof and yet you claim I have no argument, hell you have provided no facts for your argument, so show me the link. No evidence of what you are claiming, so it is FAKE NEWS!!! You would have thought you would have learned by now.

We can solve simple poverty by merely raising the minimum wage until there is no need for social services for persons willing to work and by ensuring faithful execution of our at-will employment laws for unemployment Compensation.

Go ahead, tell me how that would not work to solve simple poverty.