What objection can there be to solving simple poverty in a market friendly manner?

[danielpalos]

IOW, the money first has to be taken out of the economy by taxes and borrowing. Until you stop pretending there is no opportunity cost associated with taking money out of the economy, you will never grasp why grand socialist schemes like that always fail.

It doesn't matter if the multiplier effect, 2 in this case, creates more economic activity? A multiplier of two means that for every one dollar spent, two dollars of economic activity is generated. You simply ignoring economics is worse (and more annoying) and means right wingers will fall for the general malfare but complain about the general welfare.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Right wingers only complain about the Poor not the Rich or corporate welfare would not be so institutional.

I don’t mind corporate welfare if it prevents jobs from being lost but there needs to be criteria. And if the executives are pocketing millions then tax bail outs don’t make much sense

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Orangecat]

So if someone complains about welfare, someone else can't freely accept a job for $7/hr?

No, because that person would still need welfare benefits and that program costs more and is less efficient than simply paying people not to work at the rock bottom cost of the equivalent of a sub-minimum wage to actually work.

Your logic is flawed. Just because someone accepts a job for $7/hr doesn't mean they are on the dole. Look up the word "solipsism", it applies to you.
Again, how old are you?
You asked me earlier and I told you.
If anything, you should be embarrassed about your IQ, not your age. As a matter of fact, a young age would go a long way in excusing your naivety.

 

[danielpalos]

Why should a salary be based on anything but the value of the labor to the employer or to the market in general?

As a person asking another for employment your labor is your product and you are asking an employer to buy that product at either and hourly wage or a salary.

What the person who is selling his labor pays for rent is not part of the equation nor should it be.

Because employers don't operate in a vacuum of special pleading, but in our first world market economy.

How to Establish Salary Ranges

1. Step 1: Determine the Organization's Compensation Philosophy. ...
2. Step 2: Conduct a Job Analysis. ...
3. Step 3: Group into Job Families. ...
4. Step 4: Rank Positions Using a Job Evaluation Method. ...
5. Step 5: Conduct Market Research. ...
6. Step 6: Create Job Grades. ...
7. Step 7: Create a Salary Range Based on Research.

How to Establish Salary Ranges

Follow these simple steps to create pay grades and salary ranges.

www.shrm.org

where in there does it say the employee's rent is part of the salary equation?

Market research that is influenced by market based arbitrage. Not everyone in a low skilled job is as ignorant as the right wing would prefer.

Show me where in that salary calculator where the employee's cost of living is a factor in the salary equation

• Step 5: Conduct Market Research. ...
• Step 7: Create a Salary Range Based on Research.

 

[danielpalos]

If Capitalism worked as advertised, why would they want to? Greed is Good under Capitalism not socialism.

Capitalism hasn't been advertised. You've been spoonfed propaganda about it and ignorantly believe that to be an "advertisement".
Again, how old are you?

Right wingers keep claiming Capitalism is good and socialism is bad. Is that not any form of advertising? How old are you?

 

[danielpalos]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Right wingers only complain about the Poor not the Rich or corporate welfare would not be so institutional.

I don’t mind corporate welfare if it prevents jobs from being lost but there needs to be criteria. And if the executives are pocketing millions then tax bail outs don’t make much sense

The same could be said of non-corporate welfare. Fraud simply would make less sense.

 

[Orangecat]

Right wingers keep claiming Capitalism is good and socialism is bad. Is that not any form of advertising?

No, that's not a form of advertising.

How old are you?

Pay attention, kid:

How old are you?

53. You?

 

[danielpalos]

I am not a right winger. Only right wingers have nothing but fallacy and have no shame.

How old are you?

Old enough to have a sense of shame for having nothing but fallacy instead of valid arguments.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

This discussion has seemed to revolve 100% from the thread’s title, which talks about “market friendly” ways to solve simple poverty. Largely this is because the OP was obstinate in defending an extremely narrow view that the solution was raising the minimum wage and “Unemployment Compensation.” Also most of those opposed center their criticisms on shallow psychological or “free market” criticisms of the OP.

In reality there are proven and relatively benign methods of fighting poverty that have worked and can work in the future — like Social Security worked in strongly reducing poverty among the aged. I tried to introduce some ideas in comment #202:

What objection can there be to solving simple poverty in a market friendly manner?

There have been many proposals aimed at abolishing poverty via “market-friendly” measures — from Earned Income Tax Credits or Negative Income Tax schemes to Guaranteed Annual Income and Minimum Income proposals. Some of these suggestions have had more Conservative backers than Liberal ones. The...

www.usmessageboard.com

Of course reducing poverty is no simple matter, and no plan can be discussed intelligently without consideration of the details and the prevailing situation.

The “prevailing situation” in the U.S. is unique, and different groups here have very different interests (and views). In other countries the VALUE OF LABOR — of hard labor, or highly skilled labor, or hourly labor of every type — is judged by the prevailing “free market” to be worth much less (sometimes more) than in the U.S. This is true even in different U.S. states and regions. So talk here of “how much wealth is added” is a rather abstract idea, though not perhaps to the individual small employer.

We tend to think of things as we may experience them, individually. But when talking about “market friendly” solutions, or psychological matters or simple abstract ideas about “value added,” we ought to describe things more in terms of actual conditions experienced, in really experienced class realities in society. It is easy to argue that “hard work” will always bring rewards, but hard work in a declining and divided capital-rich society means different things and brings different results ... for different groups of people. We are at the point where “hard work” as a criminal (common criminal or fraudulent white collar criminal) is becoming a more and more appealing career choice for many who feel aggrieved and resentful of more privileged and educated groups in society.

 

[danielpalos]

Do you know anyone who is good with money who is also poor?

Not personally. I only know about businesses who have entire departments to help them conform to rational choice theory and still have needed bailouts in the past.

So you don't know one person who is good with money but is poor? Not one?!?!?

Besides the religious under our form of Capitalism? Why is corporate welfare institutional in our republic when management has recourse to entire departments to help them with rational choice theory?

 

[Orangecat]

Old enough to have a sense of shame for having nothing but fallacy instead of valid arguments.

You just insulted yourself. Funny, that.

Why are you so afraid to reveal your age?

 

[Blues Man]

Why should a salary be based on anything but the value of the labor to the employer or to the market in general?

As a person asking another for employment your labor is your product and you are asking an employer to buy that product at either and hourly wage or a salary.

What the person who is selling his labor pays for rent is not part of the equation nor should it be.

Because employers don't operate in a vacuum of special pleading, but in our first world market economy.

How to Establish Salary Ranges

1. Step 1: Determine the Organization's Compensation Philosophy. ...
2. Step 2: Conduct a Job Analysis. ...
3. Step 3: Group into Job Families. ...
4. Step 4: Rank Positions Using a Job Evaluation Method. ...
5. Step 5: Conduct Market Research. ...
6. Step 6: Create Job Grades. ...
7. Step 7: Create a Salary Range Based on Research.

How to Establish Salary Ranges

Follow these simple steps to create pay grades and salary ranges.

www.shrm.org

where in there does it say the employee's rent is part of the salary equation?

Market research that is influenced by market based arbitrage. Not everyone in a low skilled job is as ignorant as the right wing would prefer.

Show me where in that salary calculator where the employee's cost of living is a factor in the salary equation

• Step 5: Conduct Market Research. ...
• Step 7: Create a Salary Range Based on Research.

So are you saying market research includes the rent of an employee and that the rent an employee pays is part of the equation that determines his salary?

 

[danielpalos]

So if someone complains about welfare, someone else can't freely accept a job for $7/hr?

No, because that person would still need welfare benefits and that program costs more and is less efficient than simply paying people not to work at the rock bottom cost of the equivalent of a sub-minimum wage to actually work.

Your logic is flawed. Just because someone accepts a job for $7/hr doesn't mean they are on the dole. Look up the word "solipsism", it applies to you.
Again, how old are you?
You asked me earlier and I told you.
If anything, you should be embarrassed about your IQ, not your age. As a matter of fact, a young age would go a long way in excusing your naivety.

Is that why some companies were helping their low wage employees sign up for welfare benefits? Why do we even have welfare as it is currently known now if low wages are not part of the problem? Would people need as much welfare if the minimum wage were twenty dollars an hour? You should be even more embarrassed by appealing to so much ignorance instead of having valid arguments for rebuttal.

 

[danielpalos]

Right wingers keep claiming Capitalism is good and socialism is bad. Is that not any form of advertising?

No, that's not a form of advertising.

Yes, it is informal advertising. You are simply indulging in special pleading by claiming it is not.

 

[Orangecat]

Is that why some companies were helping their low wage employees sign up for welfare benefits?

"Some companies" doing a thing has no bearing on why a free person can't accept any wage they desire.
How old are you?

 

[danielpalos]

Largely this is because the OP was obstinate in defending an extremely narrow view that the solution was raising the minimum wage and “Unemployment Compensation.”

Only because that is all that is necessary to solve simple poverty, and because higher paid labor creates more in demand and generates more in tax revenue.

 

[Orangecat]

Yes, it is informal advertising. You are simply indulging in special pleading by claiming it is not.

Nope.
Special pleading? Your psychobabble won't hunt here.
How old are you? No one is stopping you from lying if you're embarrassed, kid.

 

[danielpalos]

Why should a salary be based on anything but the value of the labor to the employer or to the market in general?

As a person asking another for employment your labor is your product and you are asking an employer to buy that product at either and hourly wage or a salary.

What the person who is selling his labor pays for rent is not part of the equation nor should it be.

Because employers don't operate in a vacuum of special pleading, but in our first world market economy.

How to Establish Salary Ranges

1. Step 1: Determine the Organization's Compensation Philosophy. ...
2. Step 2: Conduct a Job Analysis. ...
3. Step 3: Group into Job Families. ...
4. Step 4: Rank Positions Using a Job Evaluation Method. ...
5. Step 5: Conduct Market Research. ...
6. Step 6: Create Job Grades. ...
7. Step 7: Create a Salary Range Based on Research.

How to Establish Salary Ranges

Follow these simple steps to create pay grades and salary ranges.

www.shrm.org

where in there does it say the employee's rent is part of the salary equation?

Market research that is influenced by market based arbitrage. Not everyone in a low skilled job is as ignorant as the right wing would prefer.

Show me where in that salary calculator where the employee's cost of living is a factor in the salary equation

• Step 5: Conduct Market Research. ...
• Step 7: Create a Salary Range Based on Research.

So are you saying market research includes the rent of an employee and that the rent an employee pays is part of the equation that determines his salary?

Yes, because it must be a consideration for labor asking for the wages they do.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Who determines what the value of labor is?

The buyer and the seller.

Almost... it may have been that way in the early days of our country but after decades of abuses to workers by the business owners the government decided to step in an require certain standards to be met. Had capitalism stayed fair and not abused their power perhaps there wouldn’t have been a need for regulations but alas, money leads to greed and greed leads to power and power can lead to abuses to those who are not in power.

Almost...

Tell me what additional determinant I missed.

 

[danielpalos]

Is that why some companies were helping their low wage employees sign up for welfare benefits?

"Some companies" doing a thing has no bearing on why a free person can't accept any wage they desire.
How old are you?

Only if you are special pleading and appealing to ignorance. How old are you?