Bull Ring What is “within reason” in relation to gun ownership: Saki & Dhunt

[Daryl Hunt]

This is bull ring, only one other person invited. Peps, the rules aren’t that hard to follow. Watch to your hearts desire, but do not post. Start you’re own threads if you want, I don’t care. I went to go hang drywall for a couple of hours and saw that there were 15 messages. For a one on one, that shit shouldn’t happen, unless the person I invited posted 15 consecutive messages. Can I get an admin to delete anything else but Daryl Hunt. flacaltenn por favor

hanging drywall? Did you hate it that much that you just couldn't shoot it?

 

[sakinago]

Daryl Hunt,

What is your definition of “within reason” in respect to gun ownership?

Background Checks with no loopholes. This is not gun registration. The only record of this check kept on file by the Fire Arms Dealer who will destroy the record after X number of years depending on the State Laws. You want to buy a gun privately, both the buyer and seller heads over to the nearest gun dealer and gets the background check done. If you want to buy a gun at a gun show, there are enough FFL dealers there that can do instant background checks. In my state, the price for the check is regulated at 7 bucks.

If you don't follow the above method and obtain your gun anyway, you just committed a class 4 felony. Plus, the person that you either illegally bought it from or borrowed it from should be held accountable for any illegal act that you perform using that gun exactly as if they held that weapon. I didn't know should not be a defense. Actively pursue conviction of these people and give them nice long jail sentences even if no one was killed.

Make the min age to purchase guns 21 years old. Simple as that.

Stop with the Open Carry crap. I support the CCW all the way. But it's just too easy to get one these days. One of the classes is 4 hours long and you only dry fire your weapon. Hardly anyone fails that one. But many should have. The one I support is 3 days long and includes 100 rounds at an Active Target Range. This one has a high failure rate because MOST should not be carrying anything including a toaster. They leave the class that they failed and go to one of the milk toast classes and, poof, they are qualified with a CCW.

When transporting a long gun, have a reason like you are going hunting, taking to the gun shop, over to the neighbors, or to the target range or skeet or trap range. You can have it in your Gun Rack, in a Carrying Case or in your Trunk. But you should NEVER be walking down the street with a locked and loaded long gun of any kind. This makes the general public very nervous and doesn't do a thing to the bad guys when you are openly displaying locked and loaded long gun. To believe otherwise is just a sick fantasy.

Notice, I have not said a thing about having a gun in the Home for Home and Family defense. That is where you should be able to have a completely serviceable handgun on tap. How you store it is up to you. It's your home and your right.

And start getting the NRA and the other Organization (yes, Dorathy, there are only two) to stop with the frivilous law suits. I will admit that Heller V DC was not a frivolous lawsuit since it upheld your right to have a fully serviceable handgun in your home. But I watched the NRA go hog wild around here, spending Millions and lose their cases, sue to get 3 state reps recalled (2 stayed and 1 did not but was put back in the next election) and cost the Tax Pay millions we could have spent on Roads or Education. Make the loser pay.

We need to allow the states to exercise the 2nd and 10th amendment without fear of those frivilous lawsuits and being beaten up about it.

Common sense laws should do it. Otherwise, it if gets too bad, the gun grabbers start grabbing guns.

Ok, just a heads up, I got as far as the “stop the open carry crap” paragraph, and am starting my response now. My brain works faster than I can type, and I will forget stuff if I do not get my points out now. I will read the rest, and then respond when I get a chance.

No matter what, universal backround checks require a universal registration. What you just described is a universal registration, with a time limit. This is a gun registration measure (that is what you described), the only difference is, you are inserting a middle man into the equation with a varying time limit. If I am a black arms dealer, and my state has a 5 year record keeping limit, I simply just front load, buy guns now and sit on them for 5 years...and then make even more on the “clean guns” I mark up for double the price. Simple supply and demand. If I am a criminal who wants to carry out naughty deeds, I just hide my gun better. I live downstream by a river from a city, I have found 3 guns in the river behind my house. One was a sawed off shotgun. Turned them into police, they couldn’t do jack bleep with them. Will it be slightly more of a pain in the ass for criminals, sure, I’ll give you that. But the laws of supply and demand will always prevail. All you’re going to do is make richer black market gun dealers and smarter criminals. Mexico has effectively banned guns, yet the drug cartels have more firepower than probably half of the national guard units of the US. If you wish for a different metaphor demonstrating the law of supply and demand, look to the war on drugs. All that has happened in the past 40 years is illegal drugs are more potent, more readily available, cheaper, and are now considered epidemics across the nation compared to previous years. LE technology has gotten better, Federal and State anti-drug units have ballooned, yet heroin and meth are dominating rural communities, where as before, the “epidemic” was limited to under privileged city communities. The one consequence we have absolutely seen is a violation in civil liberties due to the war on drugs. Civil asset forfeit siezure might be the most Un-American our government participates in currently. I don’t care if everybody and your mother knows you are a drug dealer, it needs to go to trial, and you need to get your money back if found innocent. Now the government is going after people like grandmas who don’t trust banks, or traveling Christian rock bands, or diner owners who operate with a lot of cash. You get pulled over, cop sees that cash, they take it, and you never see it again. It’s 100% BS. Point being, what sort of further civil rights violations are we going to see from a universal gun registration? I doubt Daryl Hunt is going to be leading the gun control department. The fed/state will use it to make money, or gain piolitical points at the expense of law abiding citizens in the name of “security”, just like they do with everything else’s

The record is not kept in a computer nor is it forwarded upchannel. It is just to check to see if that person is eligible to purchase a firearm. The firearm itself is not upchanneled. Just the persons personal information. And that is a one way check. I can spend a buck seventy nine and get that information on anyone myself without doing a firearms check. it's public record. In fact, that buck seventy nine will give me the information on that person for the last 20 years or so. The Firearms Background check just deals with right now. And the only place that the new owner and the firearm is linked together is on the form that is filed temporarily with the Firearms Dealer who will destroy it at a given date.

It's not even close to universal gun registration. If the FBI or that ATF starts "Reviewing" those records, stand back Sally. There is going to be some heads role. And the ones leading the charge will be the Firearms Dealers themselves with both of us in the second row screaming for their heads. I doubt if they could even get a Federal Judge to issue that warrant to search those records without some pretty damned good reason. And even then, they are going to ask the Firearms Dealer to retrieve the specific record and not peruse the whole batch. Unless a specific crime has been committed by a specific person, the FBI or ATF has absolutely no legal reason to access those manual files. And then, they can only access the one that the Warrant specifically states by identity. I would like to be a fly on the wall when a Firearms Dealer calls the issuing Judge's Clerk and says they scanned his entire file. That's going to be one really pissed off Judge.

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

 

[sakinago]

This is bull ring, only one other person invited. Peps, the rules aren’t that hard to follow. Watch to your hearts desire, but do not post. Start you’re own threads if you want, I don’t care. I went to go hang drywall for a couple of hours and saw that there were 15 messages. For a one on one, that shit shouldn’t happen, unless the person I invited posted 15 consecutive messages. Can I get an admin to delete anything else but Daryl Hunt. flacaltenn por favor

hanging drywall? Did you hate it that much that you just couldn't shoot it?

Took me a second, but I finally got it, nice.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Daryl Hunt,

What is your definition of “within reason” in respect to gun ownership?

Background Checks with no loopholes. This is not gun registration. The only record of this check kept on file by the Fire Arms Dealer who will destroy the record after X number of years depending on the State Laws. You want to buy a gun privately, both the buyer and seller heads over to the nearest gun dealer and gets the background check done. If you want to buy a gun at a gun show, there are enough FFL dealers there that can do instant background checks. In my state, the price for the check is regulated at 7 bucks.

If you don't follow the above method and obtain your gun anyway, you just committed a class 4 felony. Plus, the person that you either illegally bought it from or borrowed it from should be held accountable for any illegal act that you perform using that gun exactly as if they held that weapon. I didn't know should not be a defense. Actively pursue conviction of these people and give them nice long jail sentences even if no one was killed.

Make the min age to purchase guns 21 years old. Simple as that.

Stop with the Open Carry crap. I support the CCW all the way. But it's just too easy to get one these days. One of the classes is 4 hours long and you only dry fire your weapon. Hardly anyone fails that one. But many should have. The one I support is 3 days long and includes 100 rounds at an Active Target Range. This one has a high failure rate because MOST should not be carrying anything including a toaster. They leave the class that they failed and go to one of the milk toast classes and, poof, they are qualified with a CCW.

When transporting a long gun, have a reason like you are going hunting, taking to the gun shop, over to the neighbors, or to the target range or skeet or trap range. You can have it in your Gun Rack, in a Carrying Case or in your Trunk. But you should NEVER be walking down the street with a locked and loaded long gun of any kind. This makes the general public very nervous and doesn't do a thing to the bad guys when you are openly displaying locked and loaded long gun. To believe otherwise is just a sick fantasy.

Notice, I have not said a thing about having a gun in the Home for Home and Family defense. That is where you should be able to have a completely serviceable handgun on tap. How you store it is up to you. It's your home and your right.

And start getting the NRA and the other Organization (yes, Dorathy, there are only two) to stop with the frivilous law suits. I will admit that Heller V DC was not a frivolous lawsuit since it upheld your right to have a fully serviceable handgun in your home. But I watched the NRA go hog wild around here, spending Millions and lose their cases, sue to get 3 state reps recalled (2 stayed and 1 did not but was put back in the next election) and cost the Tax Pay millions we could have spent on Roads or Education. Make the loser pay.

We need to allow the states to exercise the 2nd and 10th amendment without fear of those frivilous lawsuits and being beaten up about it.

Common sense laws should do it. Otherwise, it if gets too bad, the gun grabbers start grabbing guns.

Ok, just a heads up, I got as far as the “stop the open carry crap” paragraph, and am starting my response now. My brain works faster than I can type, and I will forget stuff if I do not get my points out now. I will read the rest, and then respond when I get a chance.

No matter what, universal backround checks require a universal registration. What you just described is a universal registration, with a time limit. This is a gun registration measure (that is what you described), the only difference is, you are inserting a middle man into the equation with a varying time limit. If I am a black arms dealer, and my state has a 5 year record keeping limit, I simply just front load, buy guns now and sit on them for 5 years...and then make even more on the “clean guns” I mark up for double the price. Simple supply and demand. If I am a criminal who wants to carry out naughty deeds, I just hide my gun better. I live downstream by a river from a city, I have found 3 guns in the river behind my house. One was a sawed off shotgun. Turned them into police, they couldn’t do jack bleep with them. Will it be slightly more of a pain in the ass for criminals, sure, I’ll give you that. But the laws of supply and demand will always prevail. All you’re going to do is make richer black market gun dealers and smarter criminals. Mexico has effectively banned guns, yet the drug cartels have more firepower than probably half of the national guard units of the US. If you wish for a different metaphor demonstrating the law of supply and demand, look to the war on drugs. All that has happened in the past 40 years is illegal drugs are more potent, more readily available, cheaper, and are now considered epidemics across the nation compared to previous years. LE technology has gotten better, Federal and State anti-drug units have ballooned, yet heroin and meth are dominating rural communities, where as before, the “epidemic” was limited to under privileged city communities. The one consequence we have absolutely seen is a violation in civil liberties due to the war on drugs. Civil asset forfeit siezure might be the most Un-American our government participates in currently. I don’t care if everybody and your mother knows you are a drug dealer, it needs to go to trial, and you need to get your money back if found innocent. Now the government is going after people like grandmas who don’t trust banks, or traveling Christian rock bands, or diner owners who operate with a lot of cash. You get pulled over, cop sees that cash, they take it, and you never see it again. It’s 100% BS. Point being, what sort of further civil rights violations are we going to see from a universal gun registration? I doubt Daryl Hunt is going to be leading the gun control department. The fed/state will use it to make money, or gain piolitical points at the expense of law abiding citizens in the name of “security”, just like they do with everything else’s

The record is not kept in a computer nor is it forwarded upchannel. It is just to check to see if that person is eligible to purchase a firearm. The firearm itself is not upchanneled. Just the persons personal information. And that is a one way check. I can spend a buck seventy nine and get that information on anyone myself without doing a firearms check. it's public record. In fact, that buck seventy nine will give me the information on that person for the last 20 years or so. The Firearms Background check just deals with right now. And the only place that the new owner and the firearm is linked together is on the form that is filed temporarily with the Firearms Dealer who will destroy it at a given date.

It's not even close to universal gun registration. If the FBI or that ATF starts "Reviewing" those records, stand back Sally. There is going to be some heads role. And the ones leading the charge will be the Firearms Dealers themselves with both of us in the second row screaming for their heads. I doubt if they could even get a Federal Judge to issue that warrant to search those records without some pretty damned good reason. And even then, they are going to ask the Firearms Dealer to retrieve the specific record and not peruse the whole batch. Unless a specific crime has been committed by a specific person, the FBI or ATF has absolutely no legal reason to access those manual files. And then, they can only access the one that the Warrant specifically states by identity. I would like to be a fly on the wall when a Firearms Dealer calls the issuing Judge's Clerk and says they scanned his entire file. That's going to be one really pissed off Judge.

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

 

[sakinago]

Daryl Hunt,

What is your definition of “within reason” in respect to gun ownership?

Background Checks with no loopholes. This is not gun registration. The only record of this check kept on file by the Fire Arms Dealer who will destroy the record after X number of years depending on the State Laws. You want to buy a gun privately, both the buyer and seller heads over to the nearest gun dealer and gets the background check done. If you want to buy a gun at a gun show, there are enough FFL dealers there that can do instant background checks. In my state, the price for the check is regulated at 7 bucks.

If you don't follow the above method and obtain your gun anyway, you just committed a class 4 felony. Plus, the person that you either illegally bought it from or borrowed it from should be held accountable for any illegal act that you perform using that gun exactly as if they held that weapon. I didn't know should not be a defense. Actively pursue conviction of these people and give them nice long jail sentences even if no one was killed.

Make the min age to purchase guns 21 years old. Simple as that.

Stop with the Open Carry crap. I support the CCW all the way. But it's just too easy to get one these days. One of the classes is 4 hours long and you only dry fire your weapon. Hardly anyone fails that one. But many should have. The one I support is 3 days long and includes 100 rounds at an Active Target Range. This one has a high failure rate because MOST should not be carrying anything including a toaster. They leave the class that they failed and go to one of the milk toast classes and, poof, they are qualified with a CCW.

When transporting a long gun, have a reason like you are going hunting, taking to the gun shop, over to the neighbors, or to the target range or skeet or trap range. You can have it in your Gun Rack, in a Carrying Case or in your Trunk. But you should NEVER be walking down the street with a locked and loaded long gun of any kind. This makes the general public very nervous and doesn't do a thing to the bad guys when you are openly displaying locked and loaded long gun. To believe otherwise is just a sick fantasy.

Notice, I have not said a thing about having a gun in the Home for Home and Family defense. That is where you should be able to have a completely serviceable handgun on tap. How you store it is up to you. It's your home and your right.

And start getting the NRA and the other Organization (yes, Dorathy, there are only two) to stop with the frivilous law suits. I will admit that Heller V DC was not a frivolous lawsuit since it upheld your right to have a fully serviceable handgun in your home. But I watched the NRA go hog wild around here, spending Millions and lose their cases, sue to get 3 state reps recalled (2 stayed and 1 did not but was put back in the next election) and cost the Tax Pay millions we could have spent on Roads or Education. Make the loser pay.

We need to allow the states to exercise the 2nd and 10th amendment without fear of those frivilous lawsuits and being beaten up about it.

Common sense laws should do it. Otherwise, it if gets too bad, the gun grabbers start grabbing guns.

Ok, just a heads up, I got as far as the “stop the open carry crap” paragraph, and am starting my response now. My brain works faster than I can type, and I will forget stuff if I do not get my points out now. I will read the rest, and then respond when I get a chance.

No matter what, universal backround checks require a universal registration. What you just described is a universal registration, with a time limit. This is a gun registration measure (that is what you described), the only difference is, you are inserting a middle man into the equation with a varying time limit. If I am a black arms dealer, and my state has a 5 year record keeping limit, I simply just front load, buy guns now and sit on them for 5 years...and then make even more on the “clean guns” I mark up for double the price. Simple supply and demand. If I am a criminal who wants to carry out naughty deeds, I just hide my gun better. I live downstream by a river from a city, I have found 3 guns in the river behind my house. One was a sawed off shotgun. Turned them into police, they couldn’t do jack bleep with them. Will it be slightly more of a pain in the ass for criminals, sure, I’ll give you that. But the laws of supply and demand will always prevail. All you’re going to do is make richer black market gun dealers and smarter criminals. Mexico has effectively banned guns, yet the drug cartels have more firepower than probably half of the national guard units of the US. If you wish for a different metaphor demonstrating the law of supply and demand, look to the war on drugs. All that has happened in the past 40 years is illegal drugs are more potent, more readily available, cheaper, and are now considered epidemics across the nation compared to previous years. LE technology has gotten better, Federal and State anti-drug units have ballooned, yet heroin and meth are dominating rural communities, where as before, the “epidemic” was limited to under privileged city communities. The one consequence we have absolutely seen is a violation in civil liberties due to the war on drugs. Civil asset forfeit siezure might be the most Un-American our government participates in currently. I don’t care if everybody and your mother knows you are a drug dealer, it needs to go to trial, and you need to get your money back if found innocent. Now the government is going after people like grandmas who don’t trust banks, or traveling Christian rock bands, or diner owners who operate with a lot of cash. You get pulled over, cop sees that cash, they take it, and you never see it again. It’s 100% BS. Point being, what sort of further civil rights violations are we going to see from a universal gun registration? I doubt Daryl Hunt is going to be leading the gun control department. The fed/state will use it to make money, or gain piolitical points at the expense of law abiding citizens in the name of “security”, just like they do with everything else’s

The record is not kept in a computer nor is it forwarded upchannel. It is just to check to see if that person is eligible to purchase a firearm. The firearm itself is not upchanneled. Just the persons personal information. And that is a one way check. I can spend a buck seventy nine and get that information on anyone myself without doing a firearms check. it's public record. In fact, that buck seventy nine will give me the information on that person for the last 20 years or so. The Firearms Background check just deals with right now. And the only place that the new owner and the firearm is linked together is on the form that is filed temporarily with the Firearms Dealer who will destroy it at a given date.

It's not even close to universal gun registration. If the FBI or that ATF starts "Reviewing" those records, stand back Sally. There is going to be some heads role. And the ones leading the charge will be the Firearms Dealers themselves with both of us in the second row screaming for their heads. I doubt if they could even get a Federal Judge to issue that warrant to search those records without some pretty damned good reason. And even then, they are going to ask the Firearms Dealer to retrieve the specific record and not peruse the whole batch. Unless a specific crime has been committed by a specific person, the FBI or ATF has absolutely no legal reason to access those manual files. And then, they can only access the one that the Warrant specifically states by identity. I would like to be a fly on the wall when a Firearms Dealer calls the issuing Judge's Clerk and says they scanned his entire file. That's going to be one really pissed off Judge.

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Background Checks with no loopholes. This is not gun registration. The only record of this check kept on file by the Fire Arms Dealer who will destroy the record after X number of years depending on the State Laws. You want to buy a gun privately, both the buyer and seller heads over to the nearest gun dealer and gets the background check done. If you want to buy a gun at a gun show, there are enough FFL dealers there that can do instant background checks. In my state, the price for the check is regulated at 7 bucks.

If you don't follow the above method and obtain your gun anyway, you just committed a class 4 felony. Plus, the person that you either illegally bought it from or borrowed it from should be held accountable for any illegal act that you perform using that gun exactly as if they held that weapon. I didn't know should not be a defense. Actively pursue conviction of these people and give them nice long jail sentences even if no one was killed.

Make the min age to purchase guns 21 years old. Simple as that.

Stop with the Open Carry crap. I support the CCW all the way. But it's just too easy to get one these days. One of the classes is 4 hours long and you only dry fire your weapon. Hardly anyone fails that one. But many should have. The one I support is 3 days long and includes 100 rounds at an Active Target Range. This one has a high failure rate because MOST should not be carrying anything including a toaster. They leave the class that they failed and go to one of the milk toast classes and, poof, they are qualified with a CCW.

When transporting a long gun, have a reason like you are going hunting, taking to the gun shop, over to the neighbors, or to the target range or skeet or trap range. You can have it in your Gun Rack, in a Carrying Case or in your Trunk. But you should NEVER be walking down the street with a locked and loaded long gun of any kind. This makes the general public very nervous and doesn't do a thing to the bad guys when you are openly displaying locked and loaded long gun. To believe otherwise is just a sick fantasy.

Notice, I have not said a thing about having a gun in the Home for Home and Family defense. That is where you should be able to have a completely serviceable handgun on tap. How you store it is up to you. It's your home and your right.

And start getting the NRA and the other Organization (yes, Dorathy, there are only two) to stop with the frivilous law suits. I will admit that Heller V DC was not a frivolous lawsuit since it upheld your right to have a fully serviceable handgun in your home. But I watched the NRA go hog wild around here, spending Millions and lose their cases, sue to get 3 state reps recalled (2 stayed and 1 did not but was put back in the next election) and cost the Tax Pay millions we could have spent on Roads or Education. Make the loser pay.

We need to allow the states to exercise the 2nd and 10th amendment without fear of those frivilous lawsuits and being beaten up about it.

Common sense laws should do it. Otherwise, it if gets too bad, the gun grabbers start grabbing guns.

Ok, just a heads up, I got as far as the “stop the open carry crap” paragraph, and am starting my response now. My brain works faster than I can type, and I will forget stuff if I do not get my points out now. I will read the rest, and then respond when I get a chance.

No matter what, universal backround checks require a universal registration. What you just described is a universal registration, with a time limit. This is a gun registration measure (that is what you described), the only difference is, you are inserting a middle man into the equation with a varying time limit. If I am a black arms dealer, and my state has a 5 year record keeping limit, I simply just front load, buy guns now and sit on them for 5 years...and then make even more on the “clean guns” I mark up for double the price. Simple supply and demand. If I am a criminal who wants to carry out naughty deeds, I just hide my gun better. I live downstream by a river from a city, I have found 3 guns in the river behind my house. One was a sawed off shotgun. Turned them into police, they couldn’t do jack bleep with them. Will it be slightly more of a pain in the ass for criminals, sure, I’ll give you that. But the laws of supply and demand will always prevail. All you’re going to do is make richer black market gun dealers and smarter criminals. Mexico has effectively banned guns, yet the drug cartels have more firepower than probably half of the national guard units of the US. If you wish for a different metaphor demonstrating the law of supply and demand, look to the war on drugs. All that has happened in the past 40 years is illegal drugs are more potent, more readily available, cheaper, and are now considered epidemics across the nation compared to previous years. LE technology has gotten better, Federal and State anti-drug units have ballooned, yet heroin and meth are dominating rural communities, where as before, the “epidemic” was limited to under privileged city communities. The one consequence we have absolutely seen is a violation in civil liberties due to the war on drugs. Civil asset forfeit siezure might be the most Un-American our government participates in currently. I don’t care if everybody and your mother knows you are a drug dealer, it needs to go to trial, and you need to get your money back if found innocent. Now the government is going after people like grandmas who don’t trust banks, or traveling Christian rock bands, or diner owners who operate with a lot of cash. You get pulled over, cop sees that cash, they take it, and you never see it again. It’s 100% BS. Point being, what sort of further civil rights violations are we going to see from a universal gun registration? I doubt Daryl Hunt is going to be leading the gun control department. The fed/state will use it to make money, or gain piolitical points at the expense of law abiding citizens in the name of “security”, just like they do with everything else’s

The record is not kept in a computer nor is it forwarded upchannel. It is just to check to see if that person is eligible to purchase a firearm. The firearm itself is not upchanneled. Just the persons personal information. And that is a one way check. I can spend a buck seventy nine and get that information on anyone myself without doing a firearms check. it's public record. In fact, that buck seventy nine will give me the information on that person for the last 20 years or so. The Firearms Background check just deals with right now. And the only place that the new owner and the firearm is linked together is on the form that is filed temporarily with the Firearms Dealer who will destroy it at a given date.

It's not even close to universal gun registration. If the FBI or that ATF starts "Reviewing" those records, stand back Sally. There is going to be some heads role. And the ones leading the charge will be the Firearms Dealers themselves with both of us in the second row screaming for their heads. I doubt if they could even get a Federal Judge to issue that warrant to search those records without some pretty damned good reason. And even then, they are going to ask the Firearms Dealer to retrieve the specific record and not peruse the whole batch. Unless a specific crime has been committed by a specific person, the FBI or ATF has absolutely no legal reason to access those manual files. And then, they can only access the one that the Warrant specifically states by identity. I would like to be a fly on the wall when a Firearms Dealer calls the issuing Judge's Clerk and says they scanned his entire file. That's going to be one really pissed off Judge.

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

 

[sakinago]

Ok, just a heads up, I got as far as the “stop the open carry crap” paragraph, and am starting my response now. My brain works faster than I can type, and I will forget stuff if I do not get my points out now. I will read the rest, and then respond when I get a chance.

No matter what, universal backround checks require a universal registration. What you just described is a universal registration, with a time limit. This is a gun registration measure (that is what you described), the only difference is, you are inserting a middle man into the equation with a varying time limit. If I am a black arms dealer, and my state has a 5 year record keeping limit, I simply just front load, buy guns now and sit on them for 5 years...and then make even more on the “clean guns” I mark up for double the price. Simple supply and demand. If I am a criminal who wants to carry out naughty deeds, I just hide my gun better. I live downstream by a river from a city, I have found 3 guns in the river behind my house. One was a sawed off shotgun. Turned them into police, they couldn’t do jack bleep with them. Will it be slightly more of a pain in the ass for criminals, sure, I’ll give you that. But the laws of supply and demand will always prevail. All you’re going to do is make richer black market gun dealers and smarter criminals. Mexico has effectively banned guns, yet the drug cartels have more firepower than probably half of the national guard units of the US. If you wish for a different metaphor demonstrating the law of supply and demand, look to the war on drugs. All that has happened in the past 40 years is illegal drugs are more potent, more readily available, cheaper, and are now considered epidemics across the nation compared to previous years. LE technology has gotten better, Federal and State anti-drug units have ballooned, yet heroin and meth are dominating rural communities, where as before, the “epidemic” was limited to under privileged city communities. The one consequence we have absolutely seen is a violation in civil liberties due to the war on drugs. Civil asset forfeit siezure might be the most Un-American our government participates in currently. I don’t care if everybody and your mother knows you are a drug dealer, it needs to go to trial, and you need to get your money back if found innocent. Now the government is going after people like grandmas who don’t trust banks, or traveling Christian rock bands, or diner owners who operate with a lot of cash. You get pulled over, cop sees that cash, they take it, and you never see it again. It’s 100% BS. Point being, what sort of further civil rights violations are we going to see from a universal gun registration? I doubt Daryl Hunt is going to be leading the gun control department. The fed/state will use it to make money, or gain piolitical points at the expense of law abiding citizens in the name of “security”, just like they do with everything else’s

The record is not kept in a computer nor is it forwarded upchannel. It is just to check to see if that person is eligible to purchase a firearm. The firearm itself is not upchanneled. Just the persons personal information. And that is a one way check. I can spend a buck seventy nine and get that information on anyone myself without doing a firearms check. it's public record. In fact, that buck seventy nine will give me the information on that person for the last 20 years or so. The Firearms Background check just deals with right now. And the only place that the new owner and the firearm is linked together is on the form that is filed temporarily with the Firearms Dealer who will destroy it at a given date.

It's not even close to universal gun registration. If the FBI or that ATF starts "Reviewing" those records, stand back Sally. There is going to be some heads role. And the ones leading the charge will be the Firearms Dealers themselves with both of us in the second row screaming for their heads. I doubt if they could even get a Federal Judge to issue that warrant to search those records without some pretty damned good reason. And even then, they are going to ask the Firearms Dealer to retrieve the specific record and not peruse the whole batch. Unless a specific crime has been committed by a specific person, the FBI or ATF has absolutely no legal reason to access those manual files. And then, they can only access the one that the Warrant specifically states by identity. I would like to be a fly on the wall when a Firearms Dealer calls the issuing Judge's Clerk and says they scanned his entire file. That's going to be one really pissed off Judge.

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

I am linking universal background checks with gun registration because universal background checks are 100% unenforceable laws without gun registration. You’re asking all of society to participate in an honor system with universal background checks. Law abiding citizens will, criminals will not. What is the point of asking criminals to jeopardize their enterprise when they don’t have too? There is no hurdle for them to jump over that they are not already jumping over. That’s the main question with universal background checks.

 

[sakinago]

Ok, just a heads up, I got as far as the “stop the open carry crap” paragraph, and am starting my response now. My brain works faster than I can type, and I will forget stuff if I do not get my points out now. I will read the rest, and then respond when I get a chance.

No matter what, universal backround checks require a universal registration. What you just described is a universal registration, with a time limit. This is a gun registration measure (that is what you described), the only difference is, you are inserting a middle man into the equation with a varying time limit. If I am a black arms dealer, and my state has a 5 year record keeping limit, I simply just front load, buy guns now and sit on them for 5 years...and then make even more on the “clean guns” I mark up for double the price. Simple supply and demand. If I am a criminal who wants to carry out naughty deeds, I just hide my gun better. I live downstream by a river from a city, I have found 3 guns in the river behind my house. One was a sawed off shotgun. Turned them into police, they couldn’t do jack bleep with them. Will it be slightly more of a pain in the ass for criminals, sure, I’ll give you that. But the laws of supply and demand will always prevail. All you’re going to do is make richer black market gun dealers and smarter criminals. Mexico has effectively banned guns, yet the drug cartels have more firepower than probably half of the national guard units of the US. If you wish for a different metaphor demonstrating the law of supply and demand, look to the war on drugs. All that has happened in the past 40 years is illegal drugs are more potent, more readily available, cheaper, and are now considered epidemics across the nation compared to previous years. LE technology has gotten better, Federal and State anti-drug units have ballooned, yet heroin and meth are dominating rural communities, where as before, the “epidemic” was limited to under privileged city communities. The one consequence we have absolutely seen is a violation in civil liberties due to the war on drugs. Civil asset forfeit siezure might be the most Un-American our government participates in currently. I don’t care if everybody and your mother knows you are a drug dealer, it needs to go to trial, and you need to get your money back if found innocent. Now the government is going after people like grandmas who don’t trust banks, or traveling Christian rock bands, or diner owners who operate with a lot of cash. You get pulled over, cop sees that cash, they take it, and you never see it again. It’s 100% BS. Point being, what sort of further civil rights violations are we going to see from a universal gun registration? I doubt Daryl Hunt is going to be leading the gun control department. The fed/state will use it to make money, or gain piolitical points at the expense of law abiding citizens in the name of “security”, just like they do with everything else’s

The record is not kept in a computer nor is it forwarded upchannel. It is just to check to see if that person is eligible to purchase a firearm. The firearm itself is not upchanneled. Just the persons personal information. And that is a one way check. I can spend a buck seventy nine and get that information on anyone myself without doing a firearms check. it's public record. In fact, that buck seventy nine will give me the information on that person for the last 20 years or so. The Firearms Background check just deals with right now. And the only place that the new owner and the firearm is linked together is on the form that is filed temporarily with the Firearms Dealer who will destroy it at a given date.

It's not even close to universal gun registration. If the FBI or that ATF starts "Reviewing" those records, stand back Sally. There is going to be some heads role. And the ones leading the charge will be the Firearms Dealers themselves with both of us in the second row screaming for their heads. I doubt if they could even get a Federal Judge to issue that warrant to search those records without some pretty damned good reason. And even then, they are going to ask the Firearms Dealer to retrieve the specific record and not peruse the whole batch. Unless a specific crime has been committed by a specific person, the FBI or ATF has absolutely no legal reason to access those manual files. And then, they can only access the one that the Warrant specifically states by identity. I would like to be a fly on the wall when a Firearms Dealer calls the issuing Judge's Clerk and says they scanned his entire file. That's going to be one really pissed off Judge.

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

I didn’t make it a black and white issue. It’s a consequence I am pointing out of ineffective background checks. It screws over unlucky people through no fault of their own, and a very large majority of those people screwed over just happen to be black.

So you’ve temporarily placed a roadblock for the stupid enough 2% of people who have not passed background checks. That is not an effective law. That’s a very counter-effective law. It screws over 98% if the people it enforced on.

Laws should have a good level of efficacy should they not? If they do not, and instead screw over innocent people. They are not good policy. Unless you carry an “the ends justify the means” mentality. If that’s the case, then we are philosophically opposed. What’s the point of universal background checks when at least 99% of the target population won’t follow it? You could get into the argument of, “if that 1% saves lives” , but we both know that those who advocate for gun control will not be satisfied with a mere 1%. You personally may not be in that category of not being satisfied, but I think it’s fair to say you’d represent a small minority.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The record is not kept in a computer nor is it forwarded upchannel. It is just to check to see if that person is eligible to purchase a firearm. The firearm itself is not upchanneled. Just the persons personal information. And that is a one way check. I can spend a buck seventy nine and get that information on anyone myself without doing a firearms check. it's public record. In fact, that buck seventy nine will give me the information on that person for the last 20 years or so. The Firearms Background check just deals with right now. And the only place that the new owner and the firearm is linked together is on the form that is filed temporarily with the Firearms Dealer who will destroy it at a given date.

It's not even close to universal gun registration. If the FBI or that ATF starts "Reviewing" those records, stand back Sally. There is going to be some heads role. And the ones leading the charge will be the Firearms Dealers themselves with both of us in the second row screaming for their heads. I doubt if they could even get a Federal Judge to issue that warrant to search those records without some pretty damned good reason. And even then, they are going to ask the Firearms Dealer to retrieve the specific record and not peruse the whole batch. Unless a specific crime has been committed by a specific person, the FBI or ATF has absolutely no legal reason to access those manual files. And then, they can only access the one that the Warrant specifically states by identity. I would like to be a fly on the wall when a Firearms Dealer calls the issuing Judge's Clerk and says they scanned his entire file. That's going to be one really pissed off Judge.

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

I didn’t make it a black and white issue. It’s a consequence I am pointing out of ineffective background checks. It screws over unlucky people through no fault of their own, and a very large majority of those people screwed over just happen to be black.

So you’ve temporarily placed a roadblock for the stupid enough 2% of people who have not passed background checks. That is not an effective law. That’s a very counter-effective law. It screws over 98% if the people it enforced on.

Laws should have a good level of efficacy should they not? If they do not, and instead screw over innocent people. They are not good policy. Unless you carry an “the ends justify the means” mentality. If that’s the case, then we are philosophically opposed. What’s the point of universal background checks when at least 99% of the target population won’t follow it? You could get into the argument of, “if that 1% saves lives” , but we both know that those who advocate for gun control will not be satisfied with a mere 1%. You personally may not be in that category of not being satisfied, but I think it’s fair to say you’d represent a small minority.

There you go again. Background checks are not linked to Gun registration. You keep linking the two together. Again, the background checks don't even have the mention of the gun on the form. It's strictly the public background check on the buyer. And as it stands now, if a person wants to backdoor the system, they just go ahead and do it. Since the weapon isn't tracked after the legit retail sale, it can easily land in some really stupid criminals hands.

Then you go off on the 1 or 2 percent that can't pass a background check. If they have been misidentified, there are avenues to fix that. If they are a convicted felon for something not violent, get your state law changed. If they have been convicted or on trial for a violent crime, I don't want them to walk into a gun show and purchase a gun. If they are under shrink care for almost beating their wife and kids to death, this is not one I want to own a gun so he can easily finish the job. Gun checking stops stupid people from getting guns that do stupid things with them. Smart people know someone with guns out the back of a buick. Stupid people find Feds selling guns out of the back of a buick.

We can't stop all crime nor arrest all criminals. We fix what we can when we can where we can. If it means that you have to do a background check for that new 9mm, the next time that liquor store is not held up at gun point by an inept criminal should thank you.

BTW, in Colorado, ALL gun sales, the person has to go through a background check. No exceptions. And yes, I know of at least one or two people that I can buy a handgun from that will sell it without a background check. I won't buy from them because that would be breaking the law. They seem to not be able to sell their handguns these days. Of course, sooner or later, someone is going to tip off the authorities and it's bye bye due to the Buy Buy for them.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The record is not kept in a computer nor is it forwarded upchannel. It is just to check to see if that person is eligible to purchase a firearm. The firearm itself is not upchanneled. Just the persons personal information. And that is a one way check. I can spend a buck seventy nine and get that information on anyone myself without doing a firearms check. it's public record. In fact, that buck seventy nine will give me the information on that person for the last 20 years or so. The Firearms Background check just deals with right now. And the only place that the new owner and the firearm is linked together is on the form that is filed temporarily with the Firearms Dealer who will destroy it at a given date.

It's not even close to universal gun registration. If the FBI or that ATF starts "Reviewing" those records, stand back Sally. There is going to be some heads role. And the ones leading the charge will be the Firearms Dealers themselves with both of us in the second row screaming for their heads. I doubt if they could even get a Federal Judge to issue that warrant to search those records without some pretty damned good reason. And even then, they are going to ask the Firearms Dealer to retrieve the specific record and not peruse the whole batch. Unless a specific crime has been committed by a specific person, the FBI or ATF has absolutely no legal reason to access those manual files. And then, they can only access the one that the Warrant specifically states by identity. I would like to be a fly on the wall when a Firearms Dealer calls the issuing Judge's Clerk and says they scanned his entire file. That's going to be one really pissed off Judge.

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

I am linking universal background checks with gun registration because universal background checks are 100% unenforceable laws without gun registration. You’re asking all of society to participate in an honor system with universal background checks. Law abiding citizens will, criminals will not. What is the point of asking criminals to jeopardize their enterprise when they don’t have too? There is no hurdle for them to jump over that they are not already jumping over. That’s the main question with universal background checks.

It is enforceable. Get caught selling that way or buying that way and it's a class 4 felony. And you lose your gun rights for life after a brief visit to the pokey. Very few sales are made that way in this state. And fewer each year.

 

[ding]

Peaceable law abiding citizens owning and possessing the technology of the day that any light infantry ought to own and possess.

Today that would be semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You notice that the gun grabbers don't follow me around and try and lend support since I don't agree with them at all. I wonder why the gunnutters follow you around?

 

[sakinago]

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

I didn’t make it a black and white issue. It’s a consequence I am pointing out of ineffective background checks. It screws over unlucky people through no fault of their own, and a very large majority of those people screwed over just happen to be black.

So you’ve temporarily placed a roadblock for the stupid enough 2% of people who have not passed background checks. That is not an effective law. That’s a very counter-effective law. It screws over 98% if the people it enforced on.

Laws should have a good level of efficacy should they not? If they do not, and instead screw over innocent people. They are not good policy. Unless you carry an “the ends justify the means” mentality. If that’s the case, then we are philosophically opposed. What’s the point of universal background checks when at least 99% of the target population won’t follow it? You could get into the argument of, “if that 1% saves lives” , but we both know that those who advocate for gun control will not be satisfied with a mere 1%. You personally may not be in that category of not being satisfied, but I think it’s fair to say you’d represent a small minority.

There you go again. Background checks are not linked to Gun registration. You keep linking the two together. Again, the background checks don't even have the mention of the gun on the form. It's strictly the public background check on the buyer. And as it stands now, if a person wants to backdoor the system, they just go ahead and do it. Since the weapon isn't tracked after the legit retail sale, it can easily land in some really stupid criminals hands.

Then you go off on the 1 or 2 percent that can't pass a background check. If they have been misidentified, there are avenues to fix that. If they are a convicted felon for something not violent, get your state law changed. If they have been convicted or on trial for a violent crime, I don't want them to walk into a gun show and purchase a gun. If they are under shrink care for almost beating their wife and kids to death, this is not one I want to own a gun so he can easily finish the job. Gun checking stops stupid people from getting guns that do stupid things with them. Smart people know someone with guns out the back of a buick. Stupid people find Feds selling guns out of the back of a buick.

We can't stop all crime nor arrest all criminals. We fix what we can when we can where we can. If it means that you have to do a background check for that new 9mm, the next time that liquor store is not held up at gun point by an inept criminal should thank you.

BTW, in Colorado, ALL gun sales, the person has to go through a background check. No exceptions. And yes, I know of at least one or two people that I can buy a handgun from that will sell it without a background check. I won't buy from them because that would be breaking the law. They seem to not be able to sell their handguns these days. Of course, sooner or later, someone is going to tip off the authorities and it's bye bye due to the Buy Buy for them.

You’re not answering my question. How do you enforce universal background checks? In other words, how do universal background checks help curb person to person gun transfers, particularly among the criminal? Think this through.

 

[sakinago]

There is no way to do a universal background check without having a universal gun registration. You have to know who owns every single gun for universal background checks to somewhat work. It all goes back cliches but true saying that criminals do not care about gun control laws. I the only people whole actually follow the background check law are law abiding citizens. Without the universal registration, it’s nothing but feel good policy that won’t work. And when it doesn’t work, next order of business will be to say, “of course it doesn’t work, this is why we need universal registration.”

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

I am linking universal background checks with gun registration because universal background checks are 100% unenforceable laws without gun registration. You’re asking all of society to participate in an honor system with universal background checks. Law abiding citizens will, criminals will not. What is the point of asking criminals to jeopardize their enterprise when they don’t have too? There is no hurdle for them to jump over that they are not already jumping over. That’s the main question with universal background checks.

It is enforceable. Get caught selling that way or buying that way and it's a class 4 felony. And you lose your gun rights for life after a brief visit to the pokey. Very few sales are made that way in this state. And fewer each year.

LE isn’t catching them now. How is this policy going to increase the rate law enforcement can stop person to person sales without a gun registry? Here’s how a scenario would go.
LE: “where did you get this gun?”
Suspect: “I got it as a gift 10 years ago from my pops (or insert any other easily conjurable excuse).
LE: “Ok, have a nice day (since I have no gun registry to compare your story to what is reality).

 

[sakinago]

Peaceable law abiding citizens owning and possessing the technology of the day that any light infantry ought to own and possess.

Today that would be semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines.

This is bull ring. Invite only, 1 on 1 conversation for posting. You can watch, you can’t post.

 

[sakinago]

You notice that the gun grabbers don't follow me around and try and lend support since I don't agree with them at all. I wonder why the gunnutters follow you around?

IDK, and don’t care why. I feel as though I try to take a principled stance on guns that is; the purpose of the 2nd was government shouldn’t have a monopoly on the ability to enact force, I agree with that, I also believe in following the rule of law, especially the constitution, if you don’t like a law, do not ignore it, change it. The 2nd cannot/shouldn’t be ignored, just like the 1st or 4th shouldn’t. Gun control doesn’t really work all that well, maybe there are some effective GC laws, but they tend to cause a greater amount of civil liberty violations than they produce safety benefits. I’d rather air on the side of promoting freedom. Also there is no evidence that guns are actually the problem, if they were, Switzerland would be hands down the most dangerous country on the planet, but they’re actually the safest. That’s the cliff notes version of my view. If people like it, then all that means is we happen to overlap with some of our views in this single area of debate. That’s all that is. Maybe the “gun-grabbers” are too heavily influenced by intersectionalism, and you’ve been deemed an enemy because you tow the line slightly to the right. I don’t know what to tell you, don’t be friends with those people. I wouldn’t consider it martyrdom using non-radical reasoning, it’s a good thing you aren’t radical but like my pops said “don’t take praise for doing something you should be doing.”

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You notice that the gun grabbers don't follow me around and try and lend support since I don't agree with them at all. I wonder why the gunnutters follow you around?

IDK, and don’t care why. I feel as though I try to take a principled stance on guns that is; the purpose of the 2nd was government shouldn’t have a monopoly on the ability to enact force, I agree with that, I also believe in following the rule of law, especially the constitution, if you don’t like a law, do not ignore it, change it. The 2nd cannot/shouldn’t be ignored, just like the 1st or 4th shouldn’t. Gun control doesn’t really work all that well, maybe there are some effective GC laws, but they tend to cause a greater amount of civil liberty violations than they produce safety benefits. I’d rather air on the side of promoting freedom. Also there is no evidence that guns are actually the problem, if they were, Switzerland would be hands down the most dangerous country on the planet, but they’re actually the safest. That’s the cliff notes version of my view. If people like it, then all that means is we happen to overlap with some of our views in this single area of debate. That’s all that is. Maybe the “gun-grabbers” are too heavily influenced by intersectionalism, and you’ve been deemed an enemy because you tow the line slightly to the right. I don’t know what to tell you, don’t be friends with those people. I wouldn’t consider it martyrdom using non-radical reasoning, it’s a good thing you aren’t radical but like my pops said “don’t take praise for doing something you should be doing.”

We are a country of Laws. Like you said, if you don't like the law, get it changed. Otherwise, follow it. But it's okay to do a little Civil Disobedience as long as you are following the law. They even issue permits to do a little of that. But until you do, follow that law.

As for whether gun regulations make it worse or not. We can go back to 1871 and see that it does. Or the total lack of them is not a good thing for the general public. The reason I am totally against open carry without some form of license is because of what was learned then. There was a lot of innocent lives taken, property damaged, people scared whitless, and more inside of many western towns and cities until they outlawed open carry of weapons. In most of these cities and towns, the Town Marshal told you once to check your weapons. If he saw you again, he just gunned you down. The Earps were naive and foolish in compared to the Town Marshal of Dallas of the the same time period. Can anyone even recall his name?

You bring up Switzerland. Yes, many homes have at least one service rifle in it by law. Those rifles are government issue and do not belong to the individual. The bulk of the Swiss Military are Reserves who have all done at least 2 years full time obligation. They are trained and in the event of an invasion, they are ready to go. Ever wonder why the Swiss have never been invaded? Could it be this or is it that they capitulated every time an invader started to come in. Unless you fit the Military Reserve category, you cannot own a firearm that is not registered. And NO handguns. Even your shotgun has to be registered. Plus, for a sillyvillian to own a firearm, they must attend classes. You have used one of the most Regulated Countries in the world as an example. Not a good thing on your part.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

I am linking universal background checks with gun registration because universal background checks are 100% unenforceable laws without gun registration. You’re asking all of society to participate in an honor system with universal background checks. Law abiding citizens will, criminals will not. What is the point of asking criminals to jeopardize their enterprise when they don’t have too? There is no hurdle for them to jump over that they are not already jumping over. That’s the main question with universal background checks.

It is enforceable. Get caught selling that way or buying that way and it's a class 4 felony. And you lose your gun rights for life after a brief visit to the pokey. Very few sales are made that way in this state. And fewer each year.

LE isn’t catching them now. How is this policy going to increase the rate law enforcement can stop person to person sales without a gun registry? Here’s how a scenario would go.
LE: “where did you get this gun?”
Suspect: “I got it as a gift 10 years ago from my pops (or insert any other easily conjurable excuse).
LE: “Ok, have a nice day (since I have no gun registry to compare your story to what is reality).

Well, if it was manufactured newer than the law then you just lost the gun and probably lost your gun rights at the same time. It takes time to catch up. But it does catch up sooner or later. It took about 10 years to get rid of the Thompson MG from circulation after the 1934 Firearms Act. Attrition works.

 

[sakinago]

Daryl Hunt,

What is your definition of “within reason” in respect to gun ownership?

Background Checks with no loopholes. This is not gun registration. The only record of this check kept on file by the Fire Arms Dealer who will destroy the record after X number of years depending on the State Laws. You want to buy a gun privately, both the buyer and seller heads over to the nearest gun dealer and gets the background check done. If you want to buy a gun at a gun show, there are enough FFL dealers there that can do instant background checks. In my state, the price for the check is regulated at 7 bucks.

If you don't follow the above method and obtain your gun anyway, you just committed a class 4 felony. Plus, the person that you either illegally bought it from or borrowed it from should be held accountable for any illegal act that you perform using that gun exactly as if they held that weapon. I didn't know should not be a defense. Actively pursue conviction of these people and give them nice long jail sentences even if no one was killed.

Make the min age to purchase guns 21 years old. Simple as that.

Stop with the Open Carry crap. I support the CCW all the way. But it's just too easy to get one these days. One of the classes is 4 hours long and you only dry fire your weapon. Hardly anyone fails that one. But many should have. The one I support is 3 days long and includes 100 rounds at an Active Target Range. This one has a high failure rate because MOST should not be carrying anything including a toaster. They leave the class that they failed and go to one of the milk toast classes and, poof, they are qualified with a CCW.

When transporting a long gun, have a reason like you are going hunting, taking to the gun shop, over to the neighbors, or to the target range or skeet or trap range. You can have it in your Gun Rack, in a Carrying Case or in your Trunk. But you should NEVER be walking down the street with a locked and loaded long gun of any kind. This makes the general public very nervous and doesn't do a thing to the bad guys when you are openly displaying locked and loaded long gun. To believe otherwise is just a sick fantasy.

Notice, I have not said a thing about having a gun in the Home for Home and Family defense. That is where you should be able to have a completely serviceable handgun on tap. How you store it is up to you. It's your home and your right.

And start getting the NRA and the other Organization (yes, Dorathy, there are only two) to stop with the frivilous law suits. I will admit that Heller V DC was not a frivolous lawsuit since it upheld your right to have a fully serviceable handgun in your home. But I watched the NRA go hog wild around here, spending Millions and lose their cases, sue to get 3 state reps recalled (2 stayed and 1 did not but was put back in the next election) and cost the Tax Pay millions we could have spent on Roads or Education. Make the loser pay.

We need to allow the states to exercise the 2nd and 10th amendment without fear of those frivilous lawsuits and being beaten up about it.

Common sense laws should do it. Otherwise, it if gets too bad, the gun grabbers start grabbing guns.

Addressing your OP paragraph on open carry. CCW holders have a lower negligent discharge rate than police do. I think you hold a false characterization, or generalization of gun owners as irresponsible, the basic white trash hick getting loaded on jack while waiting for the racoons to raid their chicken coop. Those people certainly exist. Those people also become cops with plenty of firearms training.

What is the problem with open carry??? This argument makes no sense. If anything, concealed carry should be outlawed (it shouldn’t). It’s the whole, if you have nothing to hide concept. Wouldn’t you want to know whose armed. Again I think you have a skewed view of guns and gun owners in general. Your point on open carry implies that if you open carry you intend to harm, or display dominance. Who cares? The only thing that matters is what you do with the gun. The dousch in a Porsche doesn’t bother me (other than the fact I think they’re probably a dousch), until they drive that Porsche in a manner than threatens my life or those around me. Then they cross over into the threshold of that becoming a crime. The open carry guy doesn’t bother me until they threaten me with that gun, which is a crime. Porsch is to reckless driving as gun is to reckless endangerment. You’re assuming motives, just like I’d be assuming motives if I see you in a Porsche and think you’re a dousch.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You keep going back to saying they are going to go to the next step and centralize and computerize the background checks. It's up to us to prevent that. As it stands now, they are NOT computerized nor centralized. Therefore, they are not Universal. Nor are they Registration. It's an inquiry into the person's background not about the Gun itself. The only place they are linked are on the form that the Gun Dealer keeps in his own manual paper files which are keep private and will be destroyed later. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a Universal thing going on at all. I only hold that ALL people regardless must pass the background check to see if they are under a retraining order for potential violence, a convicted Felon, a Citizen, not under a mental health program for violent behavior and is of a certain age. There isn't one mention of the Gun on the inquiry.

You can call my idea a Universal background check if you wish but it's NOT on any database anywhere. And even if it was, there is no mention of the gun itself. The only thing that you can get from it is that the person either passed or that they failed for X reason.

And I can tell you, in the State I am in, we have a ton of fails and people sent back to prison for lying on their Background Check. Stupid Criminals do stupid things. Yes, they could have gotten the guns illegally. But these are stupid Criminals. The cops are lying in wait for them to try that. So they try and sneak it past the background check. You always give criminals way too much credit overall. Yes, the smart ones can get around anything including your brand new security system but the stupid ones will not. The Smart ones are also less likely to be violent. The Stupid ones are more likely to screw things up and have to get violent to extradite themselves from the situation. Better for the stupid ones to be limited to a knife, baseball bat or just an angry yell. Giving them easy access makes it too easy for the dumb get armed with a firearm. There isn't much you can do about a smart one.

What you are referring is called universal background checks, that’s just the term for requiring a background check for any and all gun transfer. For it to have an effect, ALL guns must be registered. All universal background checks do is make law abiding citizens jump through an extra hoop when a grandfather is giving a shotgun to their grandson. It does nothing to stop how guns are being purchased illegally today. My main point isn’t that it’ll lead to universal registration (although it probably will), it is that universal background checks do not work without gun registration. You have to know who owns what gun, and when that gun gets transferred. There is nothing stopping someone with a clean record buying for someone else. There’s nothing stopping an exchange of guns that only god know where they came from, from changing hands in a dark ally or parking lot. So why is there such a push for a measure that doesn’t even require secondary level thinking to realize that it won’t work? Ask yourself that.

Secondly, what is the point of having shopkeepers keeping paper ledgers of who they sold too? How on earth is that going to help LE find out how shooters bought their guns? Every time there’s a murder with a gun, is the DA going to go on the 5 o’clock news and say “we need all gun store owners to page through their ledgers to see if they can find this guys name.” Who has time for that? And in this political climate there i’d say there’s a pretty good incentive not to announce that you were the person who sold some asshole a gun, and then get demonized for it because you don’t have professor x’s superpowers and were just doing your job. Keeping a ledger does nothing to help the problem outside of making more work for people...who aren’t selling to those who don’t pass background checks guns anyways. For this “ledger” system to work, it would at the bare minimum need to be digital, and LE would either need a rubber stamp supbeana of all gun shops in the area (better hope assailiants didn’t buy their guns elsewhere), or be linked directly to an LE database. This is effectively gun registration, with a middleman. These would be the steps one would need to take to make your propositions actually viable. Also the same point in the first paragraph applies to this ledger scanario as well, this does nothing to stop the selling of guns illegally already in circulation pre-policy, or purchased by someone with a clean record. Again, why the push for ineffective policy?

Third, the stats behind people who don’t pass background checks are pretty damning themselves. I believe out of the 12 or so million denied due to failing a test, only 2% were actually the felon or whatever other crimes failed them. The rest are all cases mistaken identities because they share the same name as a felon, and it actually adversely effects law abiding blacks trying to purchase. The reason being, there is a lot of identical names among ethnic groups of people, doesn’t matter what ethnicity you are. In the case of the US, where some 30% of the male African American population are felons (these are just raw stats here, no implications), there are going to be a lot of black males being denied for no reason.

You are linking the gun registration to the background check. It's apples and oranges. As long as the background check does not have the information of the gun itself on the inquiry then it can not be called a gun registration which would be illegal. It only looks at the current background of the purchaser and not what they are purchasing. It would take some mighty tall and difficult legislation to get those two linked together and I don't see that coming anytime soon. You are just trying to cause fear where there isn't a problem.

The gun can be tracked directly to the gun shop that sold it. The Gun Shop Dealer can go in and identify who purchased the gun as long as there is a court order ordering him to do so. The Authorities cannot directly access all his paper files. But the Gun Dealer, under court order, will have to present that one document on that specific purchaser. That's the way it is now and it's a good system. Not Court Order, no individual record produced. BTW, all guns ARE registered at the factory and tracked throughout their history up to and including the Gun Dealers. After that, the tracking ends. What the Universal Background Check gives you is a way to track one specific gun past that through a specific background check with the proper court order. And it's pretty well known it's going to take a Federal Judge to issue that court order and a Local Judge can tie it up if he feels it's not lawful. It becomes a State issue after that. The system already works but we can make it a bit better.

As for Felons, regardless of color, if your state does not allow convicted felons to own guns then take it up with the state. If you are a felon procuring guns outside of the normal methods you are already a criminal and probably need to be sent back to prison. If the State Law is found to be invalid through a Vote or Legislation then that's another thing. I know a number of Felons that would like to own guns but don't. But in this state, you can be a felon that has not been convicted of a violent crime and own a gun after so much time has passed. If your state is different, get it changed if you feel strongly about it. You are trying to make it a Black and White issue, it's not. It's a Felon V Innocent Citizen issue.

I didn’t make it a black and white issue. It’s a consequence I am pointing out of ineffective background checks. It screws over unlucky people through no fault of their own, and a very large majority of those people screwed over just happen to be black.

So you’ve temporarily placed a roadblock for the stupid enough 2% of people who have not passed background checks. That is not an effective law. That’s a very counter-effective law. It screws over 98% if the people it enforced on.

Laws should have a good level of efficacy should they not? If they do not, and instead screw over innocent people. They are not good policy. Unless you carry an “the ends justify the means” mentality. If that’s the case, then we are philosophically opposed. What’s the point of universal background checks when at least 99% of the target population won’t follow it? You could get into the argument of, “if that 1% saves lives” , but we both know that those who advocate for gun control will not be satisfied with a mere 1%. You personally may not be in that category of not being satisfied, but I think it’s fair to say you’d represent a small minority.

There you go again. Background checks are not linked to Gun registration. You keep linking the two together. Again, the background checks don't even have the mention of the gun on the form. It's strictly the public background check on the buyer. And as it stands now, if a person wants to backdoor the system, they just go ahead and do it. Since the weapon isn't tracked after the legit retail sale, it can easily land in some really stupid criminals hands.

Then you go off on the 1 or 2 percent that can't pass a background check. If they have been misidentified, there are avenues to fix that. If they are a convicted felon for something not violent, get your state law changed. If they have been convicted or on trial for a violent crime, I don't want them to walk into a gun show and purchase a gun. If they are under shrink care for almost beating their wife and kids to death, this is not one I want to own a gun so he can easily finish the job. Gun checking stops stupid people from getting guns that do stupid things with them. Smart people know someone with guns out the back of a buick. Stupid people find Feds selling guns out of the back of a buick.

We can't stop all crime nor arrest all criminals. We fix what we can when we can where we can. If it means that you have to do a background check for that new 9mm, the next time that liquor store is not held up at gun point by an inept criminal should thank you.

BTW, in Colorado, ALL gun sales, the person has to go through a background check. No exceptions. And yes, I know of at least one or two people that I can buy a handgun from that will sell it without a background check. I won't buy from them because that would be breaking the law. They seem to not be able to sell their handguns these days. Of course, sooner or later, someone is going to tip off the authorities and it's bye bye due to the Buy Buy for them.

You’re not answering my question. How do you enforce universal background checks? In other words, how do universal background checks help curb person to person gun transfers, particularly among the criminal? Think this through.

Last year, in Colorado, there were 174 failed Background checks. Out of those, 34 felons were returned to prison. That's 34 stupid criminals no longer on the streets. There is nothing that can be done about the smart criminals because they know how to get around the laws but they are also the least likely to get violent during a quickymart holdup due to a stupid blunder. We do what we can do and not cry over what we can't do. To make laws or not make laws over the things you have no control or no hope of controlling is just bad governing.