What is the proper method of dealing with crowd control ...

[SAT2]

Sure, provide them from reputable sites. Really on TV? MSNBC perhaps?

I'm sure someone who watches Fox can provide the same kind of crap about OWS as you will from you links, but for some reason you seem to think that Fox lies and whatever station you watch tells the truth.

Funny as hell that you are willing to accept shit from one station or the crap on the internet because it fits your agenda, but automatically decry everything on Fox.

Why is that?

Immie

Because Fox News went to court for the right to lie to the public.

Fox News gets okay to misinform public, court ruling | Media Reform | CeaseSPIN.org

And they live up to that right on a routine basis.

 

[Immanuel]

By the way, I have seen the youtube videos as well. It is pretty easy to take pictures of your friends holding moronic signs and claim that you took the video at some Tea Party event.

I've never been to a Tea Party event nor an Occupy protest. I have read what both of them claim to want from their own writings. I don't think those in the Occupy movement that you seem to be so vehemently defending have a frigging clue.

But thank you for admitting that you have not been to a Tea Party event. There are some lefties here that would never admit to such after making the claims you did.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Sure, provide them from reputable sites. Really on TV? MSNBC perhaps?

I'm sure someone who watches Fox can provide the same kind of crap about OWS as you will from you links, but for some reason you seem to think that Fox lies and whatever station you watch tells the truth.

Funny as hell that you are willing to accept shit from one station or the crap on the internet because it fits your agenda, but automatically decry everything on Fox.

Why is that?

Immie

Because Fox News went to court for the right to lie to the public.

Fox News gets okay to misinform public, court ruling | Media Reform | CeaseSPIN.org

And they live up to that right on a routine basis.

OMG!

Okay everyone we know where TDM disappeared to.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

You are being hyperbolic, and reciting the Fox News version of events. Please try another channel.

I don't know who you are or where you came from but keep doing what you're doing.

 

[Sky Dancer]

By the way, I have seen the youtube videos as well. It is pretty easy to take pictures of your friends holding moronic signs and claim that you took the video at some Tea Party event.

I've never been to a Tea Party event nor an Occupy protest. I have read what both of them claim to want from their own writings. I don't think those in the Occupy movement that you seem to be so vehemently defending have a frigging clue.

But thank you for admitting that you have not been to a Tea Party event. There are some lefties here that would never admit to such after making the claims you did.

Immie

OWS and the Tea Party both have arisen out of citizen anger. Tea Party has sold out to big money interests. They are more "acceptable" to the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch.

OWS is messier, less organized, more diverse. OWS is brilliant political theater.

I haven't been to a Tea Party event nor an OWS event. The people I know who have been to OWS and have taken their own videos say it doesn't look like mainstream media makes it out to be.

 

[SAT2]

By the way, I have seen the youtube videos as well. It is pretty easy to take pictures of your friends holding moronic signs and claim that you took the video at some Tea Party event.

I've never been to a Tea Party event nor an Occupy protest. I have read what both of them claim to want from their own writings. I don't think those in the Occupy movement that you seem to be so vehemently defending have a frigging clue.

But thank you for admitting that you have not been to a Tea Party event. There are some lefties here that would never admit to such after making the claims you did.

Immie

Hey, you might want to take Foxfyre to task about her claims. In the interest of balance.

There's not any question that there were some disrespectful signs at Tea Party rallies.

I have been to a health care rally where the Tea Party contingent showed up. I had someone sincerely explain to me that once the ACA went into effect, my older relatives were goners.

OMG!

Okay everyone we know where TDM disappeared to.

Immie

Nice deflection.

 

[Immanuel]

By the way, I have seen the youtube videos as well. It is pretty easy to take pictures of your friends holding moronic signs and claim that you took the video at some Tea Party event.

I've never been to a Tea Party event nor an Occupy protest. I have read what both of them claim to want from their own writings. I don't think those in the Occupy movement that you seem to be so vehemently defending have a frigging clue.

But thank you for admitting that you have not been to a Tea Party event. There are some lefties here that would never admit to such after making the claims you did.

Immie

OWS and the Tea Party both have arisen out of citizen anger. Tea Party has sold out to big money interests. They are more "acceptable" to the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch.

OWS is messier, less organized, more diverse. OWS is brilliant political theater.

I haven't been to a Tea Party event nor an OWS event. The people I know who have been to OWS and have taken their own videos say it doesn't look like mainstream media makes it out to be.

It is not what the media says about it that makes any difference at all. It is what they are saying on the net themselves that bugs me. They seem to think that if they bring down the banks then everything will be like it was back in "Happy Days" times and "Leave it to Beaver".

If they got their wish, they would actually destroy America. It wouldn't be intentional, but that is what the outcome would be.

As for the protests themselves? I have not seen anything that bothers me about the protests. I saw the picture of the "man" defecating on the police car. Someone said that was at an OWS protest. Am I supposed to assume that whoever said that is telling the truth? I don't know that it was not at a Tea Party event or that it was not a picture taken on the back alley of Universal Studios in LA for some movie that is up and coming.

For the most part what I have seen in regards to both the Tea Party and OWS have been peaceful protests and then pictures on the net by someone claiming that those pictures were taken at one event or the other. I'm skeptical on both counts.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

By the way, I have seen the youtube videos as well. It is pretty easy to take pictures of your friends holding moronic signs and claim that you took the video at some Tea Party event.

I've never been to a Tea Party event nor an Occupy protest. I have read what both of them claim to want from their own writings. I don't think those in the Occupy movement that you seem to be so vehemently defending have a frigging clue.

But thank you for admitting that you have not been to a Tea Party event. There are some lefties here that would never admit to such after making the claims you did.

Immie

Hey, you might want to take Foxfyre to task about her claims. In the interest of balance.

There's not any question that there were some disrespectful signs at Tea Party rallies.

I have been to a health care rally where the Tea Party contingent showed up. I had someone sincerely explain to me that once the ACA went into effect, my older relatives were goners.

OMG!

Okay everyone we know where TDM disappeared to.

Immie

Nice deflection.

Not any question because you saw it on HuffingtonPost.com?

I haven't been reading FF in this thread. I'm speakiing to TDM er SAT2.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

By the way, I have seen the youtube videos as well. It is pretty easy to take pictures of your friends holding moronic signs and claim that you took the video at some Tea Party event.

I've never been to a Tea Party event nor an Occupy protest. I have read what both of them claim to want from their own writings. I don't think those in the Occupy movement that you seem to be so vehemently defending have a frigging clue.

But thank you for admitting that you have not been to a Tea Party event. There are some lefties here that would never admit to such after making the claims you did.

Immie

OWS and the Tea Party both have arisen out of citizen anger. Tea Party has sold out to big money interests. They are more "acceptable" to the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch.

OWS is messier, less organized, more diverse. OWS is brilliant political theater.

I haven't been to a Tea Party event nor an OWS event. The people I know who have been to OWS and have taken their own videos say it doesn't look like mainstream media makes it out to be.

It is not what the media says about it that makes any difference at all. It is what they are saying on the net themselves that bugs me. They seem to think that if they bring down the banks then everything will be like it was back in "Happy Days" times and "Leave it to Beaver".

If they got their wish, they would actually destroy America. It wouldn't be intentional, but that is what the outcome would be.

As for the protests themselves? I have not seen anything that bothers me about the protests. I saw the picture of the "man" defecating on the police car. Someone said that was at an OWS protest. Am I supposed to assume that whoever said that is telling the truth? I don't know that it was not at a Tea Party event or that it was not a picture taken on the back alley of Universal Studios in LA for some movie that is up and coming.

For the most part what I have seen in regards to both the Tea Party and OWS have been peaceful protests and then pictures on the net by someone claiming that those pictures were taken at one event or the other. I'm skeptical on both counts.

Immie

Of course you saw a pic of a man defecating. Great propaganda. Very effective in causing disgust.

What did the 84 year old woman who was pepper sprayed do to deserve that? Did she shit on a car? NO.

Most of the OWS protestors are peaceful and law abiding. Law enforcement is over reacting. Some 20 year old kid is charged with felony larceny for taking a policeman's hat.

Come on now. It's ridiculous.

 

[Immanuel]

OWS and the Tea Party both have arisen out of citizen anger. Tea Party has sold out to big money interests. They are more "acceptable" to the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch.

OWS is messier, less organized, more diverse. OWS is brilliant political theater.

I haven't been to a Tea Party event nor an OWS event. The people I know who have been to OWS and have taken their own videos say it doesn't look like mainstream media makes it out to be.

It is not what the media says about it that makes any difference at all. It is what they are saying on the net themselves that bugs me. They seem to think that if they bring down the banks then everything will be like it was back in "Happy Days" times and "Leave it to Beaver".

If they got their wish, they would actually destroy America. It wouldn't be intentional, but that is what the outcome would be.

As for the protests themselves? I have not seen anything that bothers me about the protests. I saw the picture of the "man" defecating on the police car. Someone said that was at an OWS protest. Am I supposed to assume that whoever said that is telling the truth? I don't know that it was not at a Tea Party event or that it was not a picture taken on the back alley of Universal Studios in LA for some movie that is up and coming.

For the most part what I have seen in regards to both the Tea Party and OWS have been peaceful protests and then pictures on the net by someone claiming that those pictures were taken at one event or the other. I'm skeptical on both counts.

Immie

Of course you saw a pic of a man defecating. Great propaganda. Very effective in causing disgust.

What did the 84 year old woman who was pepper sprayed do to deserve that? Did she shit on a car? NO.

Most of the OWS protestors are peaceful and law abiding. Law enforcement is over reacting. Some 20 year old kid is charged with felony larceny for taking a policeman's hat.

Come on now. It's ridiculous.

Maybe you should actually read what I wrote before you comment on it? Edit: there I highlighted the part you seem to have missed.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

OWS and the Tea Party both have arisen out of citizen anger. Tea Party has sold out to big money interests. They are more "acceptable" to the Koch Brothers and Rupert Murdoch.

OWS is messier, less organized, more diverse. OWS is brilliant political theater.

I haven't been to a Tea Party event nor an OWS event. The people I know who have been to OWS and have taken their own videos say it doesn't look like mainstream media makes it out to be.

It is not what the media says about it that makes any difference at all. It is what they are saying on the net themselves that bugs me. They seem to think that if they bring down the banks then everything will be like it was back in "Happy Days" times and "Leave it to Beaver".

If they got their wish, they would actually destroy America. It wouldn't be intentional, but that is what the outcome would be.

As for the protests themselves? I have not seen anything that bothers me about the protests. I saw the picture of the "man" defecating on the police car. Someone said that was at an OWS protest. Am I supposed to assume that whoever said that is telling the truth? I don't know that it was not at a Tea Party event or that it was not a picture taken on the back alley of Universal Studios in LA for some movie that is up and coming.

For the most part what I have seen in regards to both the Tea Party and OWS have been peaceful protests and then pictures on the net by someone claiming that those pictures were taken at one event or the other. I'm skeptical on both counts.

Immie

Of course you saw a pic of a man defecating. Great propaganda. Very effective in causing disgust.

What did the 84 year old woman who was pepper sprayed do to deserve that? Did she shit on a car? NO.

Most of the OWS protestors are peaceful and law abiding. Law enforcement is over reacting. Some 20 year old kid is charged with felony larceny for taking a policeman's hat.

Come on now. It's ridiculous.

Also, you were reading the thread earlier when I was having the discussion in which I repeatedly stated that I believe that the pepper spray event was excessive force as far as I am concerned.

I do not believe that the students at UC Davis should have been treated in that manner. They did not appear to be violent and they were not a threat. They were breaking the law, but it was nothing that deserved the treatment they received. They should have been cited and that should have been the just of it. They could have been given citations for every night they remained. There was no excuse for the actions taken as far as I can tell.

Immie

 

[Foxfyre]

News flash. There is no law against being 'disrespectful' for anybody UNLESS it is violating somebody else's rights.

There are laws against unlawful occupation of public or private property, of trashing, defacing, damaging, or destroying public or private property, and failure to obey the orders from lawful authorities who tell you to cease and desist.

To the best of my knowledge, there have been no unlawful actions of any Tea Party gathering and no complaints about the manner in which the Tea Partiers have conducted themselves.

I believe Immie when he says he thinks most OWS protests are peaceful and law abiding. The news accounts I have read from numerous sources would call that into question, but let's assume that only a few groups are illegally occupying, trashing, defacing, damaging, and/or destroying public and/or private property and/or violating the rights of others. I am unaware of ANY police action toward ANY group that are obeying the law.

The question in the OP is what is the appropriate action for authorities to take in the cases where the occupiers have become violent and are breaking the law and/or fail to disperse and leave the premises when ordered to do so? Is pepper spray worse than forcibly removing people at risk to both the police officers and those being removed?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

What is the proper method of dealing with people who have repeatedly disobeyed lawful orders to disperse?

What makes the order lawful?

Is physically dragging lawbreakers away more appropriate than pepper spray? Some in-the-know have said no, that physically carrying people away comes with its own set of risks and liabilities.

Its not for pussies though, and most cops are pussies.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It is not what the media says about it that makes any difference at all. It is what they are saying on the net themselves that bugs me. They seem to think that if they bring down the banks then everything will be like it was back in "Happy Days" times and "Leave it to Beaver".

If they got their wish, they would actually destroy America. It wouldn't be intentional, but that is what the outcome would be.

As for the protests themselves? I have not seen anything that bothers me about the protests. I saw the picture of the "man" defecating on the police car. Someone said that was at an OWS protest. Am I supposed to assume that whoever said that is telling the truth? I don't know that it was not at a Tea Party event or that it was not a picture taken on the back alley of Universal Studios in LA for some movie that is up and coming.

For the most part what I have seen in regards to both the Tea Party and OWS have been peaceful protests and then pictures on the net by someone claiming that those pictures were taken at one event or the other. I'm skeptical on both counts.

Immie

Of course you saw a pic of a man defecating. Great propaganda. Very effective in causing disgust.

What did the 84 year old woman who was pepper sprayed do to deserve that? Did she shit on a car? NO.

Most of the OWS protestors are peaceful and law abiding. Law enforcement is over reacting. Some 20 year old kid is charged with felony larceny for taking a policeman's hat.

Come on now. It's ridiculous.

Also, you were reading the thread earlier when I was having the discussion in which I repeatedly stated that I believe that the pepper spray event was excessive force as far as I am concerned.

I do not believe that the students at UC Davis should have been treated in that manner. They did not appear to be violent and they were not a threat. They were breaking the law, but it was nothing that deserved the treatment they received. They should have been cited and that should have been the just of it. They could have been given citations for every night they remained. There was no excuse for the actions taken as far as I can tell.

Immie

I agree. The UC Davis police action used excessive force. Most of my friends who have participated in OWS report that it is peaceful and lawful protest. The fact that the right is so threatened by them surprises me. We live in a very reactionary culture.

The Tea Party and OWS have both arisen out of citizen anger. Those on the right prefer the Tea Party, perhaps they are wearing white gloves and have their pinkies out when they drink their cuppa teas.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Crowd control? Ask the NOPD. They are the best crowd controllers in the world. Mardi Gras.

 

[Immanuel]

News flash. There is no law against being 'disrespectful' for anybody UNLESS it is violating somebody else's rights.

There are laws against unlawful occupation of public or private property, of trashing, defacing, damaging, or destroying public or private property, and failure to obey the orders from lawful authorities who tell you to cease and desist.

To the best of my knowledge, there have been no unlawful actions of any Tea Party gathering and no complaints about the manner in which the Tea Partiers have conducted themselves.

I believe Immie when he says he thinks most OWS protests are peaceful and law abiding. The news accounts I have read from numerous sources would call that into question, but let's assume that only a few groups are illegally occupying, trashing, defacing, damaging, and/or destroying public and/or private property and/or violating the rights of others. I am unaware of ANY police action toward ANY group that are obeying the law.

The question in the OP is what is the appropriate action for authorities to take in the cases where the occupiers have become violent and are breaking the law and fail to disperse and leave the premises when ordered to do so?

Being loud and (some would say) obnoxious is not violent nor is it breaking the law.

I have yet to see any reports of the students at UC Davis being violent before, during or after they were assaulted.

I said it earlier in the thread, if we want the freedom to express ourselves we have to be willing to allow those with whom we disagree that same right. From what I understand at the very least the UC Davis students were trespassing on university property. They were lawfully told to cease and desist. When they refused they were in violation of the law and subject to arrest. None of that excuses the assault that was perpetrated against them.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Being young is not against the law. Neither is being an 84 year old protestor. Did that 84 year old woman in Seattle deserve getting pepper sprayed?

Think how we’d react if we saw the same scenes coming from some riot-control unit in China, or in Syria. The calm of the officer who walks up and in a leisurely way pepper-sprays unarmed and passive people right in the face? We’d think: this is what happens when authority is unaccountable and has lost any sense of human connection to a subject population.

Non-violent protesters do not surrender their Fourth Amendment Rights to be free from excessive force by police. Specifically, non-violent protesters may sue police and the municipality of county that employs them under this Federal law, 42 United States Code Section 1983 if they have been pepper sprayed while peacefully protesting, whether or not the protesters were arrested.

 

[Foxfyre]

News flash. There is no law against being 'disrespectful' for anybody UNLESS it is violating somebody else's rights.

There are laws against unlawful occupation of public or private property, of trashing, defacing, damaging, or destroying public or private property, and failure to obey the orders from lawful authorities who tell you to cease and desist.

To the best of my knowledge, there have been no unlawful actions of any Tea Party gathering and no complaints about the manner in which the Tea Partiers have conducted themselves.

I believe Immie when he says he thinks most OWS protests are peaceful and law abiding. The news accounts I have read from numerous sources would call that into question, but let's assume that only a few groups are illegally occupying, trashing, defacing, damaging, and/or destroying public and/or private property and/or violating the rights of others. I am unaware of ANY police action toward ANY group that are obeying the law.

The question in the OP is what is the appropriate action for authorities to take in the cases where the occupiers have become violent and are breaking the law and fail to disperse and leave the premises when ordered to do so?

Being loud and (some would say) obnoxious is not violent nor is it breaking the law.

I have yet to see any reports of the students at UC Davis being violent before, during or after they were assaulted.

I said it earlier in the thread, if we want the freedom to express ourselves we have to be willing to allow those with whom we disagree that same right. From what I understand at the very least the UC Davis students were tresspassing on university property. They were lawfully told to cease and desist. When they refused they were in violation of the law and subject to arrest. None of that excuses the assault that was perpetrated against them.

Immie

And I have repeatedly posted that I have no problem with ANYBODY who is obeying the law. Nor have I been focusing on the UC incident but rather on the OWS groups.

So what IS the proper response for the police when people refuse to obey their orders to stop breaking the law?

Here again is Amelia's OP

What is the proper method of dealing with people who have repeatedly disobeyed lawful orders to disperse?

Do you think the OWS are intentionally pushing police to the point where the only way the police can enforce the law is to do things which make for "good" anti-cop TV?

Is physically dragging lawbreakers away more appropriate than pepper spray? Some in-the-know have said no, that physically carrying people away comes with its own set of risks and liabilities.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The RW paints all OWS protestors as lawless, disrespectful scum and all Tea Party protestors as saints.

The RW would have you believe that the Tea Party are "better people". They aren't. Both movements arise out of an angry citizenship. OWS is not owned by anyone. The Tea Party? Less sure.

 

[Immanuel]

News flash. There is no law against being 'disrespectful' for anybody UNLESS it is violating somebody else's rights.

There are laws against unlawful occupation of public or private property, of trashing, defacing, damaging, or destroying public or private property, and failure to obey the orders from lawful authorities who tell you to cease and desist.

To the best of my knowledge, there have been no unlawful actions of any Tea Party gathering and no complaints about the manner in which the Tea Partiers have conducted themselves.

I believe Immie when he says he thinks most OWS protests are peaceful and law abiding. The news accounts I have read from numerous sources would call that into question, but let's assume that only a few groups are illegally occupying, trashing, defacing, damaging, and/or destroying public and/or private property and/or violating the rights of others. I am unaware of ANY police action toward ANY group that are obeying the law.

The question in the OP is what is the appropriate action for authorities to take in the cases where the occupiers have become violent and are breaking the law and fail to disperse and leave the premises when ordered to do so?

Being loud and (some would say) obnoxious is not violent nor is it breaking the law.

I have yet to see any reports of the students at UC Davis being violent before, during or after they were assaulted.

I said it earlier in the thread, if we want the freedom to express ourselves we have to be willing to allow those with whom we disagree that same right. From what I understand at the very least the UC Davis students were tresspassing on university property. They were lawfully told to cease and desist. When they refused they were in violation of the law and subject to arrest. None of that excuses the assault that was perpetrated against them.

Immie

And I have repeatedly posted that I have no problem with ANYBODY who is obeying the law. Nor have I been focusing on the UC incident but rather on the OWS groups.

So what IS the proper response for the police when people refuse to obey their orders to stop breaking the law?

Here again is Amelia's OP

What is the proper method of dealing with people who have repeatedly disobeyed lawful orders to disperse?

Do you think the OWS are intentionally pushing police to the point where the only way the police can enforce the law is to do things which make for "good" anti-cop TV?

Is physically dragging lawbreakers away more appropriate than pepper spray? Some in-the-know have said no, that physically carrying people away comes with its own set of risks and liabilities.

Like I said in my first post in the thread... water hose? Flame Thrower?

In all seriousness, a hefty fine is enough to deter me as I have to feed my family and if that doesn't work, the threat of jail time will most definitely work for me. I oppose the use of physical force, are some going to say it was not physical, if so I will call it chemical force in this case.

As for this statement, "I have no problem with ANYBODY who is obeying the law", if no one disobeyed the law in protest over certain injustices then said injustices would continue and we'd all be subjects of the British Crown this very day.

Immie