What is the goal of capitalism?

[otto105]

You are both wrong and easily shown to be
First of all ,it can't be both because that posits that there is never a conflict of the two, yet we see such conflict weekly.

Capitalism only asks of government the protection of contracts. Why does nobody point to ObamaCare or Biden breaking education loan contracst. In what universe is that fair to anybody. If you don't buy ObamaCare you are punished ?????
INSANE

Hilarious fuckup

You have never heard of insurance?

 

[Red Front]

You are both wrong and easily shown to be
First of all ,it can't be both because that posits that there is never a conflict of the two, yet we see such conflict weekly.

Capitalism only asks of government the protection of contracts. Why does nobody point to ObamaCare or Biden breaking education loan contracst. In what universe is that fair to anybody. If you don't buy ObamaCare you are punished ?????
INSANE

And it demands bailout money ("too big to fail"), and the government to protect its market share creating monopolies or captive markets, and it demands publicly funded infrastructure and a host of other public goods and services. Capitalism requires it, lest the market collapses or the pitchforks come out and capitalists are forced to jump into their Learjets and megayachts and leave.

Listen to Elon Musk beg the US government for "regulations":

Here he begs the US government for a UBI i.e. "Universal Basic Income" for his customers:




​

The UBI all of these billionaires are talking about would be the biggest government bailout ever given to capitalists, to keep them in business:

​

There are states now considering banning automated trucking and transportation. An example of how capitalism undermines human progress is for capitalists to keep making a buck. We're stuck on fossil fuels for the same reason. We could replace oil, gas, and coal with safe and efficient, modern nuclear reactors. The fossil fuel industry has paid politicians billions in the last few decades to make nuclear so highly regulated, the cost of entry into that market so expensive and full of risks, that we're still burning coal in the 21st century. Thank capitalism for that.

 

[dblack]

Hilarious fuckup

You have never heard of insurance?

???

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Critiques that enlighten the mind to the truth about capitalism and will resolve the quandary of advanced 21st-century automation and artificial intelligence.

No Jobs = No Capitalism. I'll let you figure it out.

Winit X Quicktron | World's largest Automated Bin-to-person Warehouse

One of the world's largest automated bin-to-person warehouses by #Quicktron. The goods are neatly organized and densely stored in 80,000+ bins, which are del...

www.youtube.com

Autonomous Robotic Kiwifruit Harvesting and Pollination (CARES)

Autonomous Robotic Kiwifruit Harvesting and Pollination as developed by the University of Auckland, University of Waikato, Plant and Food Research, and Robo...

www.youtube.com

​

Gulags were for criminals and had a maximum sentence of ten years. Many gulags did not have walls or fences, they were very remote towns that people were sent to, and some were developed into cities that still exist today.

Ernest Mandel: On Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago (1974)

Ernest Mandel: Solzhenitsyn's Assault on Stalinism and the October Revolution (1974)

www.marxists.org

Dave Hughes: Solzhenitsyn - The Gulag Archipelago (October 1974)

Dave Hughes: Solzhenitsyn - The Gulag Archipelago (October 1974)

www.marxists.org

They were significantly less deadly than the Tsarist version (the gulags run by your capitalist-imperialist buddies), and only saw a massive amount of deaths during the war, on par with the rest of the country. It's estimated that between 1918 and 1956, 14 million people went through the gulags, and approximately 800K died, mostly all of them as a result of the Nazi invasion. The Soviet Union had a large population:

Demographics of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Modern Western scholarship which is ideologically influenced by Western Cold War propaganda against communism and the USSR, places the number of gulag deaths around 1.2-1.7 million, often forgetting to mention that the USSR was at war (class warfare/internal conflicts, and against foreign invaders like the US, UK, France, Germany).

"Western scholars estimate the total number of deaths in the Gulag ranged from 1.2 to 1.7 million during the period from 1918 to 1956."

Gulag | Definition, History, Prison, & Facts

Gulag, system of Soviet labor camps and accompanying detention and transit camps and prisons that from the 1920s to the mid-1950s housed the political prisoners and criminals of the Soviet Union. At its height, the Gulag imprisoned millions of people.

www.britannica.com

The vast majority of those deaths were the result of war. Todd, people die when there's a war. Some people are taken prisoners..etc. That's war.

Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The United States' Invasion of Russia Was a Yearlong Freezing Hell for the Troops

Around 5,000 American soldiers were part of an allied expedition to intervene in the ongoing Russian civil war against the "Red" Bolshevik forces.

www.military.com

Yeah, that's what Marx was talking about, pizza making robots.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

In our Capitalist America we really do have a form of slavery in states with really low minimum wages for jobs. Talk to any minimum wage worker trying to survive off that income, it's next to impossible. They are being paid slave wages. My wife has been a minimum wage worker for decades. When I married her she was homeless. She had a full time job, but slept on the streets because she didn't make enough money to pay rent or anything. She had more debt than income. Her debt to income ratio was like at 80%.

In a way she was being paid slave wages as a fast food worker and this could be called a form of slavery that fast food joints often use on their workers to keep them working. It is exploitation at a massive scale in the USA. More states should follow California and raise wages for fast food workers, end the barbaric slave wages that seem to put so many fast food workers in a form of slaverly they can't seem to get out of. Why they even bother to show up for work if the job pays so little that it seems they are working for free and can't pay their bills?

It's a shame that people with no skills don't make very much money.

 

[Red Front]

Yeah, that's what Marx was talking about, pizza making robots.

Marx critiqued the capitalist system of production which of course includes the drive for efficiency to reduce overhead and increase profits. Marx mentioned technological innovation in production, recognizing how it reduces the need for human labor. The big-money capitalists are also smart enough to realize that the poop is going to hit the fan for capitalism when advanced automation and artificial intelligence replace most jobs.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Marx critiqued the capitalist system of production which of course includes the drive for efficiency to reduce overhead and increase profits. Marx mentioned technological innovation in production, recognizing how it reduces the need for human labor. The big-money capitalists are also smart enough to realize that the poop is going to hit the fan for capitalism when advanced automation and artificial intelligence replace most jobs.

Marx was a whiny loser.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Critiques that enlighten the mind to the truth about capitalism and will resolve the quandary of advanced 21st-century automation and artificial intelligence.

No Jobs = No Capitalism. I'll let you figure it out.

Winit X Quicktron | World's largest Automated Bin-to-person Warehouse

One of the world's largest automated bin-to-person warehouses by #Quicktron. The goods are neatly organized and densely stored in 80,000+ bins, which are del...

www.youtube.com

Autonomous Robotic Kiwifruit Harvesting and Pollination (CARES)

Autonomous Robotic Kiwifruit Harvesting and Pollination as developed by the University of Auckland, University of Waikato, Plant and Food Research, and Robo...

www.youtube.com

​

Gulags were for criminals and had a maximum sentence of ten years. Many gulags did not have walls or fences, they were very remote towns that people were sent to, and some were developed into cities that still exist today.

Ernest Mandel: On Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago (1974)

Ernest Mandel: Solzhenitsyn's Assault on Stalinism and the October Revolution (1974)

www.marxists.org

Dave Hughes: Solzhenitsyn - The Gulag Archipelago (October 1974)

Dave Hughes: Solzhenitsyn - The Gulag Archipelago (October 1974)

www.marxists.org

They were significantly less deadly than the Tsarist version (the gulags run by your capitalist-imperialist buddies), and only saw a massive amount of deaths during the war, on par with the rest of the country. It's estimated that between 1918 and 1956, 14 million people went through the gulags, and approximately 800K died, mostly all of them as a result of the Nazi invasion. The Soviet Union had a large population:

Demographics of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Modern Western scholarship which is ideologically influenced by Western Cold War propaganda against communism and the USSR, places the number of gulag deaths around 1.2-1.7 million, often forgetting to mention that the USSR was at war (class warfare/internal conflicts, and against foreign invaders like the US, UK, France, Germany).

"Western scholars estimate the total number of deaths in the Gulag ranged from 1.2 to 1.7 million during the period from 1918 to 1956."

Gulag | Definition, History, Prison, & Facts

Gulag, system of Soviet labor camps and accompanying detention and transit camps and prisons that from the 1920s to the mid-1950s housed the political prisoners and criminals of the Soviet Union. At its height, the Gulag imprisoned millions of people.

www.britannica.com

The vast majority of those deaths were the result of war. Todd, people die when there's a war. Some people are taken prisoners..etc. That's war.

Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The United States' Invasion of Russia Was a Yearlong Freezing Hell for the Troops

Around 5,000 American soldiers were part of an allied expedition to intervene in the ongoing Russian civil war against the "Red" Bolshevik forces.

www.military.com

Interesting, when machines make everything and everybody is unemployed, who is going to buy what the machines make?

 

[Ringo]

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What did communists use for light before candles?

 

[Red Front]

Interesting, when machines make everything and everybody is unemployed, who is going to buy what the machines make

Exactly. In other words, eventually (maybe in the next 25 years or so), due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence, society will be forced by necessity to adopt a non-profit, marketless, more democratic system of mass production. This system will be centrally planned until technology advances to the point that the individual consumer doesn't need anyone else's assistance to produce what he or she consumes.

The second stage of that high-tech, highly automated, non-profit, marketless system of mass-production, involves the individual consumer having complete control over the production of goods and services they consume, without anyone else's input or help. Through advanced nanotech, atomic precision manufacturing, 3D printing..etc, the individual consumer eventually owns the means of production, personally, as an individual, not as a member of a community or collective.

Technology eventually advances to the point that you have the machinery in your home, in your micro-nuclear reactor-powered RV or sea vessel, in your spacecraft or wherever you live with your family and friends, you produce everything that you consume, without a government or a community. You as an individual person, have the power, and freedom, to create, and produce whatever you need and want. The Marxist definition of communism is:

A stateless society, without socioeconomic classes or the need for money.
​

"A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes,[1] and ultimately money[6] and the state (or nation state).[7][8][9]"

Source: Communism - Wikipedia

Private property isn't personal property. There's a distinction between the two. Private property is any property that is being used to exploit others for a profit, within a market-centered system of mass production. Personal property unlike private property, can be your home, car, computer, personal library, gun collection, toothbrush..etc. Whatever is for your personal use and not used to produce goods and services to sell in a marketplace, is considered your personal property, and permitted within Marxist communism.

The objective or goal of Marxism is the rendering of all relationships between adults as completely voluntary and free of coercion. That is achieved primarily by empowering the individual consumer with advanced technology to produce everything they consume without anyone else's assistance.

Once that is achieved through science and technology, all government authority becomes 100% subject to those who created it. If the government becomes too heavy-handed, violating your rights and freedoms, you pack up and leave. You can live anywhere because you own the means of production, that produces all of the goods and services you consume and use.

You draw water from the air, you produce electricity from your micro-nuclear fusion or fission reactor and highly efficient photonic materials (everything through advanced nanotechnology becomes a highly efficient solar panel, drawing energy from the light around you), you own the nanobots and robots to produce everything you eat, drink, wear, all of the goods and services you rely on to live. You don't need government infrastructure or your neighbor to survive, hence if and when the crap hits the fan, you just pack up and go somewhere else.

You and your family, your friends, agree to "Hey, let's find somewhere else to live, as far away from this place as possible" and you do it. Bye bye tyrannical leader, I'm leaving, and you'll never find me, because I own the technology of production. I produce everything I need and want without anyone else's help. I don't need your stupid kingdom to survive and thrive, I'll just go somewhere else, far far away.

That's the future of humanity in high-tech socialism. Free and capable of surviving and thriving, as individual consumers or as voluntarily organized, democratically-run communities/colonies. You choose, if you want to live as a hermit on an asteroid somewhere, millions or billions of miles away, or in a vast community with other human beings. It's up to you, once you have access to advanced technology. That is the goal or objective of Marxism, as expressed by Karl Marx himself.

Market capitalism will get in the way of that because it relies on the exploitation and commodification of human labor. Capitalism is built upon the private accumulation of capital, by a socioeconomic class that purchases or rents the labor-power of human beings. It's not in the interest of people like Elon Musk:

​

and others like him, for humanity not to need capitalists or markets. Why are we still hooked on fossil fuels? We're burning coal to generate electricity in 2024, yet we discovered how to generate electricity from nuclear reactors almost a hundred years ago. For the last several decades, at least since the 1970s, we've had advanced nuclear reactors, that can't melt down and explode. That even includes reactors without pressurized cooling chambers, where the hot fissile materials are cooled through molten salts and other pressureless methods. We can build safe, nuclear reactors, that can fit in your basement next to your water heater.

Why are both Republicans and Democrats in state congresses around the country threatening to pass laws that make it illegal to automate the transportation of goods on public highways? Self-driving trucks and other automated solutions for transporting goods, are being banned. Why? To protect workers? Really? No, to protect the labor market and the market in general. To protect capitalism, keeping it on life-support a few more decades, or maybe even an extra century or two. You ban and criminalize the technology that automates production, making sure capitalism continues to exist. That requires government intervention.

Notice how in that Elon Musk video, he ends by saying "we need government regulation". He wants the government to step in and save his social status as a billionaire and capitalism in general. These big-money capitalists hate high-tech automation, if it's not under their control. If it is used to produce goods and services without their beloved market or capitalism, it becomes their mortal enemy, which has to be regulated and even banned by the government.

As communists, we welcome advanced automation. Empowering citizens with the most advanced technology possible, to produce goods and services. We'll just organize a non-profit, marketless system of mass production, where citizens work 20 hours weekly supervising the robots and AI, working with the central planning office, of a democratically-run government (a government that serves the interests of consumers, the public good). You work 20 hours, and you still have a high standard of living, with all of the food, housing (you keep your house/s), a plot of land for your personal use, car, computer/s..etc. Everything you have now and more.

Society works together to advance technology, to the point that the individual consumer can produce everything they consume. You're no longer relying on the government's central planning office or any government system, to organize production, because you now personally own the technology as I described earlier. That's real freedom, not capitalism. Capitalism will keep us hooked on old technology and exploit us forever, reducing us to wage-slaves, working in a privately owned dictatorship. I prefer to have a democratic government that holds elections as my boss, than a private business owner who treats me as a machine for his gain, making him rich off of my labor.

 

[Red Front]

You win. That's awesome. So true.

 

[Ringo]

More and more of the wealth of nations goes to the richest 5%. All according to Marx.

 

[dblack]

More and more of the wealth of nations goes to the richest 5%. All according to Marx.

Uh... Ok. Jealous?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

More and more of the wealth of nations goes to the richest 5%. All according to Marx.

Yeah, technology makes that possible.
Even in shitholes like Russia.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

More and more of the wealth of nations goes to the richest 5%. All according to Marx.

"Capitalism is an exceptional belief that the activities of the most vile scum, driven by the most base motives, will somehow be for the benefit of everyone" (c) John Maynard Keynes

^Fake quote.


The great merit of the capitalist system, it has been said, is that it succeeds in using the nastiest motives of nasty people for the ultimate benefit of society.

^True fact

 

[Ringo]

The great merit of the capitalist system, it has been said, is that it succeeds in using the nastiest motives of nasty people for the ultimate benefit of society.

Your version could have been said by Hitler.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your version could have been said by Hitler.

Say that again, without the cock in your mouth.

 

[Red Front]

Uh... Ok. Jealous?

The wealth should go to those who are working the most, who labor with their lives (their sweat, tears, and blood) to produce and deliver all of the goods and services sold in the marketplace, The working class should get their piece of the pie, and it shouldn't be crumbs, but a significant portion that allows them to live well.

If the private owners of production facilities (i.e. the means of production) are profiting and living better than ever, then their employees (exploitees) should also live better and have a higher standard of living. All of the wealth shouldn't just go to the owners of the business, but to their workers as well.

Adam Smith, who is considered the father of capitalism, identified wealthy employers (i.e. exploiters) as "masters":

"What are the common wages of labor, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen (the employees/exploitees) desire to get as much, the masters (the employers/exploiters) to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine (the workmen/employees create labor unions to collectively negotiate their terms of employment with their powerful masters/employers) in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labour.

It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine (the wealthy employers also "combine"/create unions to protect and advance their vested interests in the form of Chambers of Commerce, SuperPacks, Industry Associations, and Guilds, Non-Profit Front Organizations/NGOs, Think Tanks staffed by academics who write scathing critiques of government policies they don't like and write the new legislation, and of course armies of lobbyists bribing politicians in the halls of government to accept the new legislation written by the Think Tanks) much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen." (Wealth Of Nations - Book I, Chapter VIII) - EMPHASIS MINE

Dblack is either a master himself, who thinks all of the wealth should be concentrated at the top of the totem poll, or is a working-class person, who's been brainwashed by his masters. He's assuming that the wealthy deserve EVERYTHING (the whole pie) whereas their workers should beg for a few crumbs from their masters. It's amazing, how confused and ignorant this person is.

 

[Red Front]

Say that again, without the cock in your mouth.

How easy it is to insult and denigrate people hiding behind your computer in Chicago, huh?