Zone1 What if Putin wins? US allies fear defeat as Ukraine aid stalls - Times of India

[peacefan]

If that is true it makes him no worse than Putin.

in which case, we should be smart enough to withhold all aid from Ukraine, and just hand the Black Sea and Ukraine back to Russia, who have held a very firm control over it for centuries. we can stop Russia at NATO's actual current borders. and we can blockade Kaliningrad.

such a vote can only be taken after the Russians leave all of Ukraine.

not necessarily. but the Russians would need to agree to let journalists into the occupied Ukranian territories.

If you came home and found a burglar who said he'd leave and all you have to do is give him your TV. Would you negotiate?

yes, actually.
it's better to negotiate a fairly good deal (avoid violence -> give up some property -> let the future take it's course) than it is to enter a fight with someone for whom you can't predict the fight capabilities of..

 

[peacefan]

The initial burglar [sic] entering Ukraine was the CIA.

let's not forget that the Russians made Ukraine part of the USSR, forcing the CIA to step in when the timing was right.

 

[AMart]

It's not like we haven't done it before, only this time over 50,000 Americans didn't lose their lives.

Like I said yesterday we are using a foreign army.

 

[AMart]

Vicky Nuland Begins To Bite Her Fingernails

From Moonofalaba.org: 'Should Russia win and take over most of Ukraine, it could negate Ukrainian debt, making the West pay double for its adventure.'

It's now conscripting females 25-60:

https://strana.news/news/453154-chem-hrozit-mobilizatsija-zhenschin-dlja-ukrainy.html

It will. Nuland and hubby kagan are psychos.

 

[badger2]

let's not forget that the Russians made Ukraine part of the USSR, forcing the CIA to step in when the timing was right.

Where is your link for this "forcing" episode?

 

[peacefan]

English captions.

such a shame to see both sides so entrenched in their hatred for each other.

we should withhold aid from Ukraine and focus all of our efforts on Israel and Iran first, i thought.
but that was before i factored in the raw materials variables in this puzzle;

• maintaining oil production output levels in the Middle East by establishing western presences there, and protecting those bases a lot more vigilantly than the Biden administration has done so far.
• holding on to grain and wheat producing lands in Ukraine

and then there's the sheer territorial advantage factors :

• holding on to Ukraine and capturing Crimea and the Black Sea into effectively NATO jurisdiction, may serve as a constant reminder to the Russians not to become too arrogant with western governments, in all sorts of fields, even cyberwarfare and elections fraud.
• teaching Iran the lesson it needs puts the entire Middle-East at rest.

but, there's also the looming, ready-to-erupt conflict on and around Taiwan,
making this whole deal a bit like walking a tight-rope.

you can't just invest 10x as much in your defense budgets, that would be portrayed and likely even seen as an act preluding to WW3, somewhere down the line.

i say we aim for another say 12 trillion[1] (inflation-adjusted) USD defense expenditure over the course of the next 20 years..
but this time coming from all of the NATO countries, not just 1 (the US).

[1] the war on terror cost between 5 and 8 trillion according to publications found via a simple google search

war on terror cost us - Google Search

www.google.com

our enemies will say we have no right to claim right of passage (for free) on the open seas and in specific countries' lands, to do peaceful mutually-benefitial trade with the people living there, and to be able to transport the products to our lands, but we have held that right ever since peaceful trade got police and military support (even inside our homelands of course), which is a VERY long time ago!

 

[peacefan]

Where is your link for this "forcing" episode?

use your common sense instead of propaganda you find on the net, for a change

 

[badger2]

use your common sense instead of propaganda you find on the net, for a change

What is the source of your statement, or are you channeling an unknown entity?

 

[alang1216]

The initial burglar [sic] entering Ukraine was the CIA.

The CIA is probably in every country, at least I hope they are. Has the CIA admitted interference in Ukraine or did you get your info from another source? What source was that?

 

[badger2]

such a shame to see both sides so entrenched in their hatred for each other.

we should withhold aid from Ukraine and focus all of our efforts on Israel and Iran first, i thought.
but that was before i factored in the raw materials variables in this puzzle;

• maintaining oil production output levels in the Middle East by establishing western presences there, and protecting those bases a lot more vigilantly than the Biden administration has done so far.
• holding on to grain and wheat producing lands in Ukraine

and then there's the sheer territorial advantage factors :

• holding on to Ukraine and capturing Crimea and the Black Sea into effectively NATO jurisdiction, may serve as a constant reminder to the Russians not to become too arrogant with western governments, in all sorts of fields, even cyberwarfare and elections fraud.
• teaching Iran the lesson it needs puts the entire Middle-East at rest.

but, there's also the looming, ready-to-erupt conflict on and around Taiwan,
making this whole deal a bit like walking a tight-rope.

you can't just invest 10x as much in your defense budgets, that would be portrayed and likely even seen as an act preluding to WW3, somewhere down the line.

i say we aim for another say 12 trillion[1] (inflation-adjusted) USD defense expenditure over the course of the next 20 years..
but this time coming from all of the NATO countries, not just 1 (the US).

[1] the war on terror cost between 5 and 8 trillion according to publications found via a simple google search

war on terror cost us - Google Search

www.google.com

our enemies will say we have no right to claim right of passage (for free) on the open seas and in specific countries' lands, to do peaceful mutually-benefitial trade with the people living there, and to be able to transport the products to our lands, but we have held that right ever since peaceful trade got police and military support (even inside our homelands of course), which is a VERY long time ago!

Good that you're working your way to Asia. The NATO expansion pathology (aka US-CIA pathology) starts with Korean history.

 

[peacefan]

What is the source of your statement, or are you channeling an unknown entity?

ok, i am an empath, telepath[1] and i do believe in channeling, but that clearly wasn't involved in the making of that post.

i truly came to that conclusion myself, after seeing a map somewhere of pre-expansion Europe vs the USSR.

pre-expansion europe - Google Search

www.google.com

you'll see why the Cold War 1 warriors were so adamant about getting into Eastern Europe.

[1] Telepathy Manual by Rene AJM Veerman aka Gavan Peacefan Hoverswell - Google Drive

 

[peacefan]

Good that you're working your way to Asia. The NATO expansion pathology (aka US-CIA pathology) starts with Korean history.

there are no doubt many such pathologies.

 

[alang1216]

in which case, we should be smart enough to withhold all aid from Ukraine, and just hand the Black Sea and Ukraine back to Russia, who have held a very firm control over it for centuries. we can stop Russia at NATO's actual current borders. and we can blockade Kaliningrad.

Why should we do anything to aid Russia? They have interfered in our elections and aid our adversaries so any enemy of Russia is our friend.

not necessarily. but the Russians would need to agree to let journalists into the occupied Ukranian territories.

They had their chance the first time and blew it. How many Russian journalists have fallen from windows?

yes, actually.
it's better to negotiate a fairly good deal (avoid violence -> give up some property -> let the future take it's course) than it is to enter a fight with someone for whom you can't predict the fight capabilities of..

After 2 years of war, we have a very good idea of Russian military capability and it is not very impressive. So long as Ukraine is willing to fight, they are doing our work for us and should be supported, not forced to negotiate with a terrorist neighbor.

 

[Mac-7]

What if Putin wins? US allies fear defeat as Ukraine aid stalls - Times of India

With more than $110 billion in assistance mired in political disputes in Washington and Brussels, how long Kyiv will be able to hold back Russian forces and defend Ukraine’s cities and ports against missile attacks is increasingly in question. Ukraine’s backers in both the EU and US contend aid is likely to be approved in some form early next year. But that’s unlikely to yield a major breakthrough, officials said. Beyond that, the outlook is increasingly murky, even as the stalemate on the ground makes it increasingly clear that the fight could go on for years to come.

Remote : 2023-12-19T11:27:06+05:30
Local : 2023-12-19(Tuesday) 06 : 57 : 06
Found via World Headlines on nicer.app

Zelensky said in another article the other day : "it is insane to give up territory to the Russians. would you give your kids up to terrorists? i think not".
well, it remains very much a question if Zelensky truly speaks for the population that he conscripted into his fight against Russia.
a fight to stay in the lucrative halls of power.

we should investigate this properly, and then determine if the far-eastern Ukranians and Ukranians bordering the Sea of Azov and Crimeans, really do currently want to be a part of Russia.

coz if peace and prosperity for all in the region formerly called Ukraine depends on an end to fighting more than it does to politicians' (economic-)territorial desires, then we owe it to our children to enter peace negotiations with the Russians.
i think it really is that simple.
but i'm open to other viewpoints too.

The priority for Biden and the Dems is flood America with dirt poor non white foreigners

And then save ukraine if possible

But the open border with mexico comes first

 

[peacefan]

The priority for Biden and the Dems is flood America with dirt poor non white foteigners

And then save ukraine if possible

But the open border with mexico comes first

domestic political gain for a single party? that's what's the driving factor here? or is it just 1 of the driving factors?

 

[Mac-7]

domestic political gain for a single party? that's what's the driving factor here? or is it just 1 of the driving factors?

I’m open to suggestions

What other reason is keeping dems from cutting a deal?

 

[peacefan]

Why should we do anything to aid Russia? They have interfered in our elections and aid our adversaries so any enemy of Russia is our friend.

Europe's borders have shifted many many times over the centuries[1], and one more time, this time granting Putin a semi-solid hold for a few decades on Ukranian occupied lands and Black Sea access, might serve our mid-to-long-term interests greatly, if we play our future cards right.

They had their chance the first time and blew it. How many Russian journalists have fallen from windows?

you tell me.

After 2 years of war, we have a very good idea of Russian military capability and it is not very impressive. So long as Ukraine is willing to fight, they are doing our work for us and should be supported, not forced to negotiate with a terrorist neighbor.

i think Zelensky is forcing his population to stay in the fight.

[1] pre-expansion europe - Google Search

 

[peacefan]

I’m open to suggestions

What other reason is keeping dems from cutting a deal?

fear? of defeat in war?

 

[Mac-7]

fear? of defeat in war?

I’m not following you

If biden fears “losing” ukraine - and so do I - he should cut a deal with the repubs over the border issue

But the dem priority is white replacement first, resisting russian aggression later if possible

 

[badger2]

It remains that post #27 pure here-say, a theologian imitation using unknown authors, unknown sources, and non-existent entities such as god.

The CIA is probably in every country, at least I hope they are. Has the CIA admitted interference in Ukraine or did you get your info from another source? What source was that?

The absurd idea is that an intelligence agency whose business is arranging coups would admit to interference in a country.

20 May 2017 China

Killing C.I.A. Informants, China Crippled U.S. Spying Operations (Published 2017)

At least 18 C.I.A. sources were killed or imprisoned in China between 2010 and 2012, one of the worst intelligence breaches in decades. Investigators still disagree about how it happened.

nytimes.com

'....The CIA considers spying in China one of its top priorities.'