What gives us the right?

[Redfish]

The fish did NOT think it through before starting this thread.

No, I thought it through very carefully. What I did not realize was that I would be talking to a bunch of libs who are incapable of discussing the issue without spamming the thread with liberal talking points that have nothing to do with the basic question.

 

[Seawytch]

Then I guess you have no issue with muslims wanting to convince the rest of the world that islam is the only real religion? How about if the chinese sent a delegation to the US with the goal of convincing americans that no couple should have more than one child?

why is it OK for us to do it, but not for anyone else?

Because cultural issues that do not include repression can betaken with a grain of salt. The Russians ARE calling for repression. See the difference now?

Why is it our business if the Russians are oppressing a segment of their population?

So, you would have been one of the Americans against going into WWII before Pearl Harbor, I take it?

 

[LibertyLemming]

OK, people. Lets try this one more time. This is not about whether gays should have equal rights, I think we all agree that they should.

This is not about the US setting an example for the rest of the world.

This thread merely asks the question: What gives us the moral superiority to tell the rest of the world that what we believe relative to gays is right and what they believe is wrong?

Who are we to be missionaries for gay rights to the rest of the world?

Most of you on the left disagree with Christians preaching the gospel to non-Christians, but you are OK with the US preaching gay rights to the rest of the world.

This is about American arrogance that is displayed every day---------"we are right, you are wrong, you should change your beliefs and standards to match ours"

If you don't get it now, you never will

The same reason abolitionist had the moral right to try and end slavery despite it being overwhelmingly popular. Bigotry and hate are not things that to be tolerated or swept under the carpet, they are to be attacked and dismantled and ended by all people of virtue.

 

[Redfish]

OK, people. Lets try this one more time. This is not about whether gays should have equal rights, I think we all agree that they should.

This is not about the US setting an example for the rest of the world.

This thread merely asks the question: What gives us the moral superiority to tell the rest of the world that what we believe relative to gays is right and what they believe is wrong?

Who are we to be missionaries for gay rights to the rest of the world?

Most of you on the left disagree with Christians preaching the gospel to non-Christians, but you are OK with the US preaching gay rights to the rest of the world.

This is about American arrogance that is displayed every day---------"we are right, you are wrong, you should change your beliefs and standards to match ours"

If you don't get it now, you never will

The same reason abolitionist had the moral right to try and end slavery despite it being overwhelmingly popular. Bigotry and hate are not things that to be tolerated or swept under the carpet, they are to be attacked and dismantled and ended by all people of virtue.

The abolutionist movement was WITHIN the USA. We didn't tell the rest of the world that they should ban slavery. Not a valid analogy.

I don't know why you have such a hard time with this. Its not about whether tolerance of gays or being against slavery was right or moral. Its about the US trying to tell the rest of the world how to live.

 

[Redfish]

Because cultural issues that do not include repression can betaken with a grain of salt. The Russians ARE calling for repression. See the difference now?

Why is it our business if the Russians are oppressing a segment of their population?

So, you would have been one of the Americans against going into WWII before Pearl Harbor, I take it?

Until the interests of the USA were being threatened, we should not get involved. Selling supplies to one side is far different from getting involved militarily.

BTW, how were we "going into WWII" before Pearl Harbor?

 

[Seawytch]

Why is it our business if the Russians are oppressing a segment of their population?

So, you would have been one of the Americans against going into WWII before Pearl Harbor, I take it?

Until the interests of the USA were being threatened, we should not get involved. Selling supplies to one side is far different from getting involved militarily.

BTW, how were we "going into WWII" before Pearl Harbor?

So as long as they were just killing off the Jews no need to be involved? No speaking out against the atrocities? Just "shhhhhh" until they piss on us?

 

[BlindBoo]

OK, people. Lets try this one more time. This is not about whether gays should have equal rights, I think we all agree that they should.

This is not about the US setting an example for the rest of the world.

This thread merely asks the question: What gives us the moral superiority to tell the rest of the world that what we believe relative to gays is right and what they believe is wrong?

Who are we to be missionaries for gay rights to the rest of the world?

Most of you on the left disagree with Christians preaching the gospel to non-Christians, but you are OK with the US preaching gay rights to the rest of the world.

This is about American arrogance that is displayed every day---------"we are right, you are wrong, you should change your beliefs and standards to match ours"

If you don't get it now, you never will

I don't care if Christians preach the gospel to others. It's up to each individual to decide to listen or not. I wouldn't want them jailed for it in Russia either. And I think Saudi Arabia sucks too.

 

[LibertyLemming]

OK, people. Lets try this one more time. This is not about whether gays should have equal rights, I think we all agree that they should.

This is not about the US setting an example for the rest of the world.

This thread merely asks the question: What gives us the moral superiority to tell the rest of the world that what we believe relative to gays is right and what they believe is wrong?

Who are we to be missionaries for gay rights to the rest of the world?

Most of you on the left disagree with Christians preaching the gospel to non-Christians, but you are OK with the US preaching gay rights to the rest of the world.

This is about American arrogance that is displayed every day---------"we are right, you are wrong, you should change your beliefs and standards to match ours"

If you don't get it now, you never will

The same reason abolitionist had the moral right to try and end slavery despite it being overwhelmingly popular. Bigotry and hate are not things that to be tolerated or swept under the carpet, they are to be attacked and dismantled and ended by all people of virtue.

The abolutionist movement was WITHIN the USA. We didn't tell the rest of the world that they should ban slavery. Not a valid analogy.

I don't know why you have such a hard time with this. Its not about whether tolerance of gays or being against slavery was right or moral. Its about the US trying to tell the rest of the world how to live.

There were abolitionist movements everywhere there was slavery, not just the USA. You are insane if you think the anti-slavery movement didn't spread internationally.

The USA government kills people all over world and does tons of violent things and you are complaining about it trying to tell people not to be immoral bigots?

 

[Seawytch]

Fishy, should the United States have spoken out against the oppression of Jews in Germany? Should we not have tried to "impose our moral superiority" on them?

 

[Redfish]

The same reason abolitionist had the moral right to try and end slavery despite it being overwhelmingly popular. Bigotry and hate are not things that to be tolerated or swept under the carpet, they are to be attacked and dismantled and ended by all people of virtue.

The abolutionist movement was WITHIN the USA. We didn't tell the rest of the world that they should ban slavery. Not a valid analogy.

I don't know why you have such a hard time with this. Its not about whether tolerance of gays or being against slavery was right or moral. Its about the US trying to tell the rest of the world how to live.

There were abolitionist movements everywhere there was slavery, not just the USA. You are insane if you think the anti-slavery movement didn't spread internationally.

The USA government kills people all over world and does tons of violent things and you are complaining about it trying to tell people not to be immoral bigots?

I am trying to say that we should let other countries decide how they want to live, what their morals are, and what kind of legal system they want to follow.

We are neither the world's military police or the world's ethics police. Although many in this country want us to be both.

 

[Redfish]

So, you would have been one of the Americans against going into WWII before Pearl Harbor, I take it?

Until the interests of the USA were being threatened, we should not get involved. Selling supplies to one side is far different from getting involved militarily.

BTW, how were we "going into WWII" before Pearl Harbor?

So as long as they were just killing off the Jews no need to be involved? No speaking out against the atrocities? Just "shhhhhh" until they piss on us?

How many genocides in Africa have we gotten in the middle of? Did we get into the China/Tibet conflict? Did we get in the middle of the China/Japan conflict before WW2?

We are not even consistent in our moral outrage, which makes it even more disengenuous.

 

[LibertyLemming]

The abolutionist movement was WITHIN the USA. We didn't tell the rest of the world that they should ban slavery. Not a valid analogy.

I don't know why you have such a hard time with this. Its not about whether tolerance of gays or being against slavery was right or moral. Its about the US trying to tell the rest of the world how to live.

There were abolitionist movements everywhere there was slavery, not just the USA. You are insane if you think the anti-slavery movement didn't spread internationally.

The USA government kills people all over world and does tons of violent things and you are complaining about it trying to tell people not to be immoral bigots?

I am trying to say that we should let other countries decide how they want to live, what their morals are, and what kind of legal system they want to follow.

We are neither the world's military police or the world's ethics police. Although many in this country want us to be both.

Do you extend your desires to everyone? Should we abolish government so everyone is free to decide how they want to live?

 

[Redfish]

The same reason abolitionist had the moral right to try and end slavery despite it being overwhelmingly popular. Bigotry and hate are not things that to be tolerated or swept under the carpet, they are to be attacked and dismantled and ended by all people of virtue.

The abolutionist movement was WITHIN the USA. We didn't tell the rest of the world that they should ban slavery. Not a valid analogy.

I don't know why you have such a hard time with this. Its not about whether tolerance of gays or being against slavery was right or moral. Its about the US trying to tell the rest of the world how to live.

There were abolitionist movements everywhere there was slavery, not just the USA. You are insane if you think the anti-slavery movement didn't spread internationally.

The USA government kills people all over world and does tons of violent things and you are complaining about it trying to tell people not to be immoral bigots?

OMG, the liberal mind is a very confusing and confused thing. You are incapable of staying on topic.

Yes, slavery is wrong
Yes, discrimination is wrong

No one is defending those things.

Yes, Russia is wrong for discriminating against gays. But that is something that is up to the Russian people to accept or change----------------NOT US.

and we have no right to tell them that they are wrong to believe differently from us.

 

[Redfish]

There were abolitionist movements everywhere there was slavery, not just the USA. You are insane if you think the anti-slavery movement didn't spread internationally.

The USA government kills people all over world and does tons of violent things and you are complaining about it trying to tell people not to be immoral bigots?

I am trying to say that we should let other countries decide how they want to live, what their morals are, and what kind of legal system they want to follow.

We are neither the world's military police or the world's ethics police. Although many in this country want us to be both.

Do you extend your desires to everyone? Should we abolish government so everyone is free to decide how they want to live?

Not at all, each country should set its own standards of morals, ethics, religious tolerance, lifestyle tolerance, form of government, etc.

We believe ours is the best, others believe theirs is best. Who are we to tell them that they are wrong and we are right?

 

[LibertyLemming]

The abolutionist movement was WITHIN the USA. We didn't tell the rest of the world that they should ban slavery. Not a valid analogy.

I don't know why you have such a hard time with this. Its not about whether tolerance of gays or being against slavery was right or moral. Its about the US trying to tell the rest of the world how to live.

There were abolitionist movements everywhere there was slavery, not just the USA. You are insane if you think the anti-slavery movement didn't spread internationally.

The USA government kills people all over world and does tons of violent things and you are complaining about it trying to tell people not to be immoral bigots?

OMG, the liberal mind is a very confusing and confused thing. You are incapable of staying on topic.

Yes, slavery is wrong
Yes, discrimination is wrong

No one is defending those things.

Yes, Russia is wrong for discriminating against gays. But that is something that is up to the Russian people to accept or change----------------NOT US.

and we have no right to tell them that they are wrong to believe differently from us.

You are insane if you don't think you have a right to speak out against immorality.

 

[LibertyLemming]

I am trying to say that we should let other countries decide how they want to live, what their morals are, and what kind of legal system they want to follow.

We are neither the world's military police or the world's ethics police. Although many in this country want us to be both.

Do you extend your desires to everyone? Should we abolish government so everyone is free to decide how they want to live?

Not at all, each country should set its own standards or morals, ethics, religious tolerance, lifestyle tolerance, form of government, etc.

We believe ours is the best, others believe theirs is best. Who are we to tell them that they are wrong and we are right?

You may believe ours is the best but I do not want a government.

See by supporting a government that forces everyone to follow its orders, you are not allowing me the freedom to live as I desire, like you claim we should do with the gays in Russia.

 

[Redfish]

There were abolitionist movements everywhere there was slavery, not just the USA. You are insane if you think the anti-slavery movement didn't spread internationally.

The USA government kills people all over world and does tons of violent things and you are complaining about it trying to tell people not to be immoral bigots?

OMG, the liberal mind is a very confusing and confused thing. You are incapable of staying on topic.

Yes, slavery is wrong
Yes, discrimination is wrong

No one is defending those things.

Yes, Russia is wrong for discriminating against gays. But that is something that is up to the Russian people to accept or change----------------NOT US.

and we have no right to tell them that they are wrong to believe differently from us.

You are insane if you don't think you have a right to speak out against immorality.

what I am trying to get through your head is that there is no universal belief of what is moral and immoral when it comes to homosexuality.

We have ours, muslims have a totally different view, as do the Russians.

what gives us the right to tell them that their morals are wrong?

 

[LibertyLemming]

OMG, the liberal mind is a very confusing and confused thing. You are incapable of staying on topic.

Yes, slavery is wrong
Yes, discrimination is wrong

No one is defending those things.

Yes, Russia is wrong for discriminating against gays. But that is something that is up to the Russian people to accept or change----------------NOT US.

and we have no right to tell them that they are wrong to believe differently from us.

You are insane if you don't think you have a right to speak out against immorality.

what I am trying to get through your head is that there is no universal belief of what is moral and immoral when it comes to homosexuality.

We have ours, muslims have a totally different view, as do the Russians.

what gives us the right to tell them that their morals are wrong?

Hold on, you just said we should let people live their own lives, is that not universal to you anymore? Because if letting people live their own lives is universal then letting people be gay also is.

 

[Redfish]

Do you extend your desires to everyone? Should we abolish government so everyone is free to decide how they want to live?

Not at all, each country should set its own standards or morals, ethics, religious tolerance, lifestyle tolerance, form of government, etc.

We believe ours is the best, others believe theirs is best. Who are we to tell them that they are wrong and we are right?

You may believe ours is the best but I do not want a government.

See by supporting a government that forces everyone to follow its orders, you are not allowing me the freedom to live as I desire, like you claim we should do with the gays in Russia.

again, you miss the point. a government sets up laws and determines what is right and wrong based on the beliefs of a majority of the people. Our constitution defines what americans believe and what americans want the govt to enforce.

other countries have similar documents.

 

[Redfish]

You are insane if you don't think you have a right to speak out against immorality.

what I am trying to get through your head is that there is no universal belief of what is moral and immoral when it comes to homosexuality.

We have ours, muslims have a totally different view, as do the Russians.

what gives us the right to tell them that their morals are wrong?

Hold on, you just said we should let people live their own lives, is that not universal to you anymore? Because if letting people live their own lives is universal then letting people be gay also is.

I said we should let each country decide its own set of morals, laws, and ethics. I never said each individual in a country should set his or her own.