CDZ What do American Muslims want?

[Syriusly]

Sharia is an entire code of rules for living, civil matters along with a penal code. In that sense it's no different than Halakah, or Catholic religious law used in arbritration. What you and others seem to miss is that not all Muslims follow the entire package, just like not all Jews follow the entire package - what is followed is what is line with US law, or whatever the law of the country is. In any western country that allows religious arbritration - it applies ONLY to civil matters - not criminal. Divorce, marriage, contracts - and it's voluntary. It also can go against existing laws. It's a reasonable avenue for religious people who want to resolve things within their faith.

I simply disagree, sharia law is totally unfair to women and should be disallowed everywhere possible. As for the other religions, go start a thread, you keep trying to derail this one. Who do I report YOU to? .

As for this "It also can go against existing laws", you must be nuts.

You simply disagree with the First Amendment? Oh, well, then.

So you'd let Muslim women be stoned to death in the US for some bullshit reason?

No one would. None of this applies to criminal law mor does it overide secular law. If it did, we'd be in a shitload of trouble because the Bible extorts us to stone adulterers and the Halakah punishment for adulters is also stoning. None of that of course is legal in this country nor do most religious people in this country desire it.

So in other words, the First Amendment right to freedom of religion doesn't really exist, does it? So stop leaning on it for your arguments please.

Of course it still exists.

We have the First Amendment right to free speech but that doesn't mean I have the right to tell a crowd of people to go kill you.

Likewise we have 'Freedom of Religion' but that doesn't mean you can stone women to death and claim that your religious beliefs allow you to do that- you can't violate the law while you are practicing your "Freedom of Religion"

 

[Syriusly]

Ridiculous to you- since you have made it clear that when you say that Americans can't follow 'foreign religious law' what you really mean is you want to prevent American Muslims from practising Sharia law in private, between themselves, when it does not violate U.S. law.

You are okay with every other religion doing so.

I did not state that, you made it up,
.

Quoting you:
Yes, I have a problem with Moslem Men living by Sharia Law in their private life.

There can be only one law in the USA, that of the Constitution.

When we pointed out that many Americans live their lives following religious law, including Kosher laws- you indicated that was okay- because "The Constitution was based upon the Bible"

Yes- you do have a problem.

Again, no, that is not what I stated.

So you do not have an example of Moslem Men resolving civil matters with Sharia Law?

How about telling us an example other than food how Moslems live by Sharia law.

Applying God’s Law: Religious Courts and Mediation in the U.S.

Islamic law, or sharia, is the code of religious belief and conduct that governs many aspects of Muslim life. It covers a broad range of areas, including crime and punishment; marriage, divorce and inheritance; banking and contractual relations; and diet and attire. Some elements of sharia, especially concerning worship and other religious practices, are clearly outlined in the Quran, the Islamic holy book, while other questions are settled according to different clerics’ interpretations of general sharia principles.


The purpose of sharia is to allow Muslims to live their earthly lives according to Allah’s wishes, according to Sheik Abdool Rahman Khan, an expert on sharia law and chairman of the Shariah Council of the Islamic Circle of North America, a Muslim education and advocacy group in New York City: “We believe that if we do not do things properly in this world, then we will have consequences in the hereafter.”


Disputes Between Individuals


Sharia sometimes plays an important role in helping Muslims resolve disputes, particularly domestic ones. Indeed, the most common disputes involving sharia, at least in the United States, probably concern issues surrounding the dissolution of a marriage, such as asset allocation or child custody, says Lee Ann Bambach, an attorney who is completing a Ph.D. in religious studies at Emory University in Atlanta. Inheritance and contract dispute cases also occasionally come up, she says.


In many Muslim countries, marital and other disputes often come before sharia courts, where a judge sometimes renders a decision after hearing only from the two parties involved, without other evidence or witnesses. In the United States, there are no sharia courts operating at this time, Bambach and other experts say. However, a number of Muslim imams offer voluntary dispute-resolution services to American Muslims based on principles of Islamic religious law.


For example, Imam Talal Eid runs the Islamic Institute of Boston, an organization that handles religious divorces, inheritance disputes and child-custody cases for Muslims across the United States. Most of his cases center on divorces, often involving women trying to obtain an Islamic divorce from an uncooperative husband. “I investigate, and if the wife’s claims are legitimate, I will talk to the husband and try to convince him. If the husband continues to refuse to grant a [religious] divorce, I grant her one,” he says. Eid does not call his institute a sharia court, but he does liken its work to that of a Jewish beit din, or rabbinical court (see below).


According to Bambach, many U.S. Muslims take marital and other problems to local imams and ask them to use sharia principles to resolve the disputes. But because there is no single credentialing organization or centralized hierarchy for American imams, there also are no standard procedures for dispute resolution, she says.


Abed Awad, an attorney in Hasbrouck Heights, N.J., who is an expert on sharia, says the ground rules for dispute resolution are often set by the imam and other participants in an ad hoc manner at the beginning of each case. “These things tend to spring up as the need arises,” he says.


According to Khan, at the Islamic Circle of North America the resolution of each case also must be in line with secular American law and procedure. For instance, he says, “I let people know that I cannot issue a [religious] divorce decree unless a court has given them a [civil] divorce document first.”


Eid follows the same procedure. “Today you have to mix modern and Islamic law,” he says.
​

How Muslim men live by Sharia depends very much on their culture.

Shariah Law: The Five Things Every Non-Muslim (and Muslim) Should Know

"In the United States, there are no sharia courts operating at this time,"

And let's keep it that way.
.

I agree- we don't want religious laws in the United States replacing our criminal or civil systems- but if Jews or Muslims or Christians agree together to follow religious laws in contracts and other arrangements, it is no different than companies requiring employees to agree to binding arbitration instead of the courts for employment disputes.

 

[Mudda]

Freedom of religion is not absolute. As an example, I can't just rape someone and claim to be free of prosecution because I declare myself a Muslim and there weren't 4 witnessed to the rape. So the complaining woman should be stoned to death for adultery.

Once again you move from what we are discussing- consensual behavior among adults that doesn't violate U.S. law to actions which are criminal actions.

Muslims have the same religious rights as every American has. Those rights include conducting themselves in private relationships as they see fit so long as they do not break American law.

And that includes living their lives by Sharia as long as they do not violate the law.

So basically you agree with me then, Muslims can only ever have partial constitutional freedom of religion.

So basically you agree with me that all Americans are protected by the same First Amendment rights, and that Muslims and Christians have the exact same freedom of religion.

Nobody has true freedom of religion, that's a myth. There are all kinds of laws that don't let the religious do what they want. So their First Amendment right doesn't even really exist in the first place.

Well you are entitled to your opinion. Even when you are wrong.

Well, if Muslims aren't allowed full sharia, then they don't have real freedom of religion. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

 

[Mudda]

I simply disagree, sharia law is totally unfair to women and should be disallowed everywhere possible. As for the other religions, go start a thread, you keep trying to derail this one. Who do I report YOU to? .

As for this "It also can go against existing laws", you must be nuts.

You simply disagree with the First Amendment? Oh, well, then.

So you'd let Muslim women be stoned to death in the US for some bullshit reason?

No one would. None of this applies to criminal law mor does it overide secular law. If it did, we'd be in a shitload of trouble because the Bible extorts us to stone adulterers and the Halakah punishment for adulters is also stoning. None of that of course is legal in this country nor do most religious people in this country desire it.

So in other words, the First Amendment right to freedom of religion doesn't really exist, does it? So stop leaning on it for your arguments please.

Of course it still exists.

We have the First Amendment right to free speech but that doesn't mean I have the right to tell a crowd of people to go kill you.

Likewise we have 'Freedom of Religion' but that doesn't mean you can stone women to death and claim that your religious beliefs allow you to do that- you can't violate the law while you are practicing your "Freedom of Religion"

So you actually just admitted that we don't have freedom of religion because of secular laws. Thanks for playing.

 

[Mudda]

I did not state that, you made it up,
.

Quoting you:
Yes, I have a problem with Moslem Men living by Sharia Law in their private life.

There can be only one law in the USA, that of the Constitution.

When we pointed out that many Americans live their lives following religious law, including Kosher laws- you indicated that was okay- because "The Constitution was based upon the Bible"

Yes- you do have a problem.

Again, no, that is not what I stated.

So you do not have an example of Moslem Men resolving civil matters with Sharia Law?

How about telling us an example other than food how Moslems live by Sharia law.

Applying God’s Law: Religious Courts and Mediation in the U.S.

Islamic law, or sharia, is the code of religious belief and conduct that governs many aspects of Muslim life. It covers a broad range of areas, including crime and punishment; marriage, divorce and inheritance; banking and contractual relations; and diet and attire. Some elements of sharia, especially concerning worship and other religious practices, are clearly outlined in the Quran, the Islamic holy book, while other questions are settled according to different clerics’ interpretations of general sharia principles.


The purpose of sharia is to allow Muslims to live their earthly lives according to Allah’s wishes, according to Sheik Abdool Rahman Khan, an expert on sharia law and chairman of the Shariah Council of the Islamic Circle of North America, a Muslim education and advocacy group in New York City: “We believe that if we do not do things properly in this world, then we will have consequences in the hereafter.”


Disputes Between Individuals


Sharia sometimes plays an important role in helping Muslims resolve disputes, particularly domestic ones. Indeed, the most common disputes involving sharia, at least in the United States, probably concern issues surrounding the dissolution of a marriage, such as asset allocation or child custody, says Lee Ann Bambach, an attorney who is completing a Ph.D. in religious studies at Emory University in Atlanta. Inheritance and contract dispute cases also occasionally come up, she says.


In many Muslim countries, marital and other disputes often come before sharia courts, where a judge sometimes renders a decision after hearing only from the two parties involved, without other evidence or witnesses. In the United States, there are no sharia courts operating at this time, Bambach and other experts say. However, a number of Muslim imams offer voluntary dispute-resolution services to American Muslims based on principles of Islamic religious law.


For example, Imam Talal Eid runs the Islamic Institute of Boston, an organization that handles religious divorces, inheritance disputes and child-custody cases for Muslims across the United States. Most of his cases center on divorces, often involving women trying to obtain an Islamic divorce from an uncooperative husband. “I investigate, and if the wife’s claims are legitimate, I will talk to the husband and try to convince him. If the husband continues to refuse to grant a [religious] divorce, I grant her one,” he says. Eid does not call his institute a sharia court, but he does liken its work to that of a Jewish beit din, or rabbinical court (see below).


According to Bambach, many U.S. Muslims take marital and other problems to local imams and ask them to use sharia principles to resolve the disputes. But because there is no single credentialing organization or centralized hierarchy for American imams, there also are no standard procedures for dispute resolution, she says.


Abed Awad, an attorney in Hasbrouck Heights, N.J., who is an expert on sharia, says the ground rules for dispute resolution are often set by the imam and other participants in an ad hoc manner at the beginning of each case. “These things tend to spring up as the need arises,” he says.


According to Khan, at the Islamic Circle of North America the resolution of each case also must be in line with secular American law and procedure. For instance, he says, “I let people know that I cannot issue a [religious] divorce decree unless a court has given them a [civil] divorce document first.”


Eid follows the same procedure. “Today you have to mix modern and Islamic law,” he says.
​

How Muslim men live by Sharia depends very much on their culture.

Shariah Law: The Five Things Every Non-Muslim (and Muslim) Should Know

"In the United States, there are no sharia courts operating at this time,"

And let's keep it that way.
.

I agree- we don't want religious laws in the United States replacing our criminal or civil systems- but if Jews or Muslims or Christians agree together to follow religious laws in contracts and other arrangements, it is no different than companies requiring employees to agree to binding arbitration instead of the courts for employment disputes.

Since they first have to follow secular laws before they do anything religiously, then not only do they not have full freedom of religion, but what you're saying is that they can pretend to hold a religious court afterwards. So their religious courts are only make believe. Like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

 

[Arianrhod]

Since they first have to follow secular laws before they do anything religiously...

So then there's nothing for you to worry about.

 

[Mudda]

Since they first have to follow secular laws before they do anything religiously...

So then there's nothing for you to worry about.

The women will still get seriously screwed in a lot of cases. We shouldn't be letting that happen, we're supposed to be a civilized country. I guess you don't care about that.

 

[elektra]

Sharia Law would undermine our Constitution, period. How do we police law being administered in mosques? How do we ensue the rights of Women and Children who are being ruled by Sharia Law in the USA?

There is only one governing document in the USA, the Constitution, everything else must be rejected or banned.

It is what makes as an exceptional country.

 

[Syriusly]

Shariah Law: The Five Things Every Non-Muslim (and Muslim) Should Know
"In the United States, there are no sharia courts operating at this time,"

And let's keep it that way.

"“I let people know that I cannot issue a [religious] divorce decree unless a court has given them a [civil] divorce document first.”"

We are told, Sharia is no different then a Kosher diet, or Christians getting Married in a Church, yet the people making these statements do not show us the laws of Marriage under Sharia or all the other things that Sharia applies to..]

No- what you said was that no foreign religious law should be allowed in the United States.

And we pointed out to you that Jewish law, including Kosher rules, and Catholic law operate in the United States- and we asked you whether you applied the same standards to any other religious law other than Sharia.

And you refuse to actually answer any question.

So- are you opposed to any religious law operating in the United States- including Islamic laws, Judaic laws and Catholic laws- or are you only opposed to Muslims in America using their religious laws?

 

[Arianrhod]

Sharia Law would undermine our Constitution, period.

If our government were replaced by a caliphate, yes. Not going to happen.

 

[Syriusly]

Since they first have to follow secular laws before they do anything religiously...

So then there's nothing for you to worry about.

The women will still get seriously screwed in a lot of cases. We shouldn't be letting that happen, we're supposed to be a civilized country. I guess you don't care about that.

Women still get screwed in a lot of cases regardless of religion or lack of religion. We shouldn't be letting that happen.

But I guess you don't care about that.

 

[Arianrhod]

Since they first have to follow secular laws before they do anything religiously...

So then there's nothing for you to worry about.

The women will still get seriously screwed in a lot of cases. We shouldn't be letting that happen, we're supposed to be a civilized country.

A civilized country whose constitution guarantees freedom of religion. Nowhere does it say "some religions."

 

[elektra]

Woman and girls have no rights under Sharia law.

Under the U.S. Supreme Court: Islamic law in U.S. courts

And among others, "Parveen Chaudry vs. M. Hanif Chaudry, M.D., Sharia law of Pakistan, New Jersey, 1978: Appellate court upheld foreign Shariah law, overturned trial court. Wife denied support and child support and division of property; prenuptial agreement signed by parents giving her only $1,500 from marriage upheld by appellate court."

 

[Syriusly]

Sharia Law would undermine our Constitution, period. How do we police law being administered in mosques? How do we ensue the rights of Women and Children who are being ruled by Sharia Law in the USA?y.

Every American law always applies.

If Muslims in a mosque decide to apply Sharia law to resolve disputes between each other- why would we care?

Women's and children's rights are always protected by American law- which is why even when Christian's beat their kids to death and claim they were just following the Bible they still get arrested and convicted. Same for any Muslim who thinks that his religious beliefs allows him to abuse his wife or children.

Sharia protects no one from criminal prosecution.

 

[Syriusly]

Woman and girls have no rights under Sharia law.]

Yes they do. Just not the same rights.

Americans in the United States are protected by American law.

As your article notes:

Across the United States, religious courts operate on a routine, everyday basis," the analysis says. "The Roman Catholic Church alone has nearly 200 diocesan tribunals that handle a variety of cases, including an estimated 15,000 to 20,000 marriage annulments each year. In addition, many Orthodox Jews use rabbinical courts to obtain religious divorces, resolve business conflicts and settle other disputes with fellow Jews. Similarly, many Muslims appeal to Islamic clerics to resolve marital disputes and other disagreements with fellow Muslims.

"These laws are unnecessary and serve only to do two things: Single out Muslims as second-class citizens and undermine the Constitution," the article said. "If supporters of these measures genuinely wish to protect the Constitution, they would do well to trust the framers' respect for international law and religious freedom -- and not trade away our most precious values for political advantage."

 

[Syriusly]

Quoting you:
Yes, I have a problem with Moslem Men living by Sharia Law in their private life.

There can be only one law in the USA, that of the Constitution.

When we pointed out that many Americans live their lives following religious law, including Kosher laws- you indicated that was okay- because "The Constitution was based upon the Bible"

Yes- you do have a problem.

Again, no, that is not what I stated.

So you do not have an example of Moslem Men resolving civil matters with Sharia Law?

How about telling us an example other than food how Moslems live by Sharia law.

Applying God’s Law: Religious Courts and Mediation in the U.S.

Islamic law, or sharia, is the code of religious belief and conduct that governs many aspects of Muslim life. It covers a broad range of areas, including crime and punishment; marriage, divorce and inheritance; banking and contractual relations; and diet and attire. Some elements of sharia, especially concerning worship and other religious practices, are clearly outlined in the Quran, the Islamic holy book, while other questions are settled according to different clerics’ interpretations of general sharia principles.


The purpose of sharia is to allow Muslims to live their earthly lives according to Allah’s wishes, according to Sheik Abdool Rahman Khan, an expert on sharia law and chairman of the Shariah Council of the Islamic Circle of North America, a Muslim education and advocacy group in New York City: “We believe that if we do not do things properly in this world, then we will have consequences in the hereafter.”


Disputes Between Individuals


Sharia sometimes plays an important role in helping Muslims resolve disputes, particularly domestic ones. Indeed, the most common disputes involving sharia, at least in the United States, probably concern issues surrounding the dissolution of a marriage, such as asset allocation or child custody, says Lee Ann Bambach, an attorney who is completing a Ph.D. in religious studies at Emory University in Atlanta. Inheritance and contract dispute cases also occasionally come up, she says.


In many Muslim countries, marital and other disputes often come before sharia courts, where a judge sometimes renders a decision after hearing only from the two parties involved, without other evidence or witnesses. In the United States, there are no sharia courts operating at this time, Bambach and other experts say. However, a number of Muslim imams offer voluntary dispute-resolution services to American Muslims based on principles of Islamic religious law.


For example, Imam Talal Eid runs the Islamic Institute of Boston, an organization that handles religious divorces, inheritance disputes and child-custody cases for Muslims across the United States. Most of his cases center on divorces, often involving women trying to obtain an Islamic divorce from an uncooperative husband. “I investigate, and if the wife’s claims are legitimate, I will talk to the husband and try to convince him. If the husband continues to refuse to grant a [religious] divorce, I grant her one,” he says. Eid does not call his institute a sharia court, but he does liken its work to that of a Jewish beit din, or rabbinical court (see below).


According to Bambach, many U.S. Muslims take marital and other problems to local imams and ask them to use sharia principles to resolve the disputes. But because there is no single credentialing organization or centralized hierarchy for American imams, there also are no standard procedures for dispute resolution, she says.


Abed Awad, an attorney in Hasbrouck Heights, N.J., who is an expert on sharia, says the ground rules for dispute resolution are often set by the imam and other participants in an ad hoc manner at the beginning of each case. “These things tend to spring up as the need arises,” he says.


According to Khan, at the Islamic Circle of North America the resolution of each case also must be in line with secular American law and procedure. For instance, he says, “I let people know that I cannot issue a [religious] divorce decree unless a court has given them a [civil] divorce document first.”


Eid follows the same procedure. “Today you have to mix modern and Islamic law,” he says.
​

How Muslim men live by Sharia depends very much on their culture.

Shariah Law: The Five Things Every Non-Muslim (and Muslim) Should Know

"In the United States, there are no sharia courts operating at this time,"

And let's keep it that way.
.

I agree- we don't want religious laws in the United States replacing our criminal or civil systems- but if Jews or Muslims or Christians agree together to follow religious laws in contracts and other arrangements, it is no different than companies requiring employees to agree to binding arbitration instead of the courts for employment disputes.

Since they first have to follow secular laws before they do anything religiously, then not only do they not have full freedom of religion, but what you're saying is that they can pretend to hold a religious court afterwards. So their religious courts are only make believe. Like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.

Like I said- you can believe whatever you want to believe- even when you are wrong.

 

[Syriusly]

You simply disagree with the First Amendment? Oh, well, then.

So you'd let Muslim women be stoned to death in the US for some bullshit reason?

No one would. None of this applies to criminal law mor does it overide secular law. If it did, we'd be in a shitload of trouble because the Bible extorts us to stone adulterers and the Halakah punishment for adulters is also stoning. None of that of course is legal in this country nor do most religious people in this country desire it.

So in other words, the First Amendment right to freedom of religion doesn't really exist, does it? So stop leaning on it for your arguments please.

Of course it still exists.

We have the First Amendment right to free speech but that doesn't mean I have the right to tell a crowd of people to go kill you.

Likewise we have 'Freedom of Religion' but that doesn't mean you can stone women to death and claim that your religious beliefs allow you to do that- you can't violate the law while you are practicing your "Freedom of Religion"

So you actually just admitted that we don't have freedom of religion because of secular laws. Thanks for playing.

Of course it still exists.

We have the First Amendment right to free speech but that doesn't mean I have the right to tell a crowd of people to go kill you.

Likewise we have 'Freedom of Religion' but that doesn't mean you can stone women to death and claim that your religious beliefs allow you to do that- you can't violate the law while you are practicing your "Freedom of Religion"

Just because you think that 'Freedom of Religion" means that people should be able to beat their kids to death without interference from the states, doesn't mean that only then is there Freedom of Religion.

 

[elektra]

Sharia Law would undermine our Constitution, period.

If our government were replaced by a caliphate, yes. Not going to happen.

How do you protect the rights of muslim woman who do not appear in a U.S. Court for a divorce, but instead are divorced "in the privacy of their home" (as was stated in this thread).

 

[Arianrhod]

Woman and girls have no rights under Sharia law.

Under the U.S. Supreme Court: Islamic law in U.S. courts

And among others, "Parveen Chaudry vs. M. Hanif Chaudry, M.D., Sharia law of Pakistan, New Jersey, 1978: Appellate court upheld foreign Shariah law, overturned trial court. Wife denied support and child support and division of property; prenuptial agreement signed by parents giving her only $1,500 from marriage upheld by appellate court."

If a woman believes her religion is her way to salvation in the afterlife, what right do you perceive any government has to tell her she's wrong? At what point would you consent to let the government of the United States intervene in your religion?

If you're concerned about Muslim women who are being disenfranchised, there are any number of organizations that do outreach in the Muslim community. Perhaps you can contact one of them and volunteer.

 

[Arianrhod]

Sharia Law would undermine our Constitution, period.

If our government were replaced by a caliphate, yes. Not going to happen.

How do you protect the rights of muslim woman who do not appear in a U.S. Court for a divorce, but instead are divorced "in the privacy of their home" (as was stated in this thread).

See my previous post.