What Constitutes a "Right?"

Pub, you know medical science can cure premature acclamation don't you? :lol:

There's nothing premaure about it...

As is always the case in such debates; the facts are in and your obtuse response to those facts doesn't change them.

Fact: Humanity did not create itself...
Fact: Something other than humanity created humanity.
Fact: That which created Humanity is referred to as God.
Fact: The creation endowed life to humanity;
Fact: With that life comes the rightful entitlement to pursue the fulfillment of that life;
Fact: that rightful entitlement comes with the sacred responsibility to not exercise the pursuit of one's own life; to the detriment of the means of another to pursue the fulfillment of their own life.
Fact: where one fails to recognize one's own Right and the sacred responsibility inherent in that Right; and exercises their Rights to the detriment of another's means to exercise their own Right; one forfeits their Right.

Nothing complicated about it... and refusing to accept it, doesn't change it.
 
The essence of the Debate in summary?

Declarationism is a legal philosophy that incorporates the United States Declaration of Independence into the body of case law on level with the United States Constitution. Its main proponents include Harry V. Jaffa and other members of the Claremont Institute.

The concept is derived from the philosophical structure contained in the Declaration of Independence and the primacy of the Declaration in the existence of the United States of America as a nation (as opposed the existence of the government) and the allowance and consent for the Constitution to have been created at all, to wit: The Declaration establishes the nation on a "separate and equal Station"; The Declaration posits as one of the "certain unalienable Rights" (on the extended list found throughout the Declaration), "that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or Abolish it..."; The Articles of Confederation were established as the initial "Form of Government" to "secure" the rights referred to in the Declaration; It was determined, by the fact of the ratification of the "Constitution for United States of America", that the Articles of Confederation were "destructive of these Ends" ("securing these Rights") as the Articles of Confederation were abolished by the People; The Constitution was ordained and established "in Order to form a more perfect Union..." in a manner that meant that the Articles were not perfect enough in instituting "new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

To show a contrast with a Declarationist (who is by extension an adherent to the concept of natural law), the legal positivist, who concludes that law is strictly an arbitrary human construct without a connection to morality, would have to conclude that the Constitution is a de novo document, the two concepts of "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" and the self-evident truth of a Creator endowing Men with "unalienable Rights" are false, that the Preamble of the Constitution has no antecedents, and that the Bill of Rights and the efforts of the anti-federalists, and especially the Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution, have no philosophical foundation or legal effect. For the Declarationist, the essence of the creation of Men as equals is not only those "unalienable Rights" but the inseparability of equal responsibilities linked to each one of those rights. The legal positivist would assert that only the law can establish any rights and no responsibilities come with rights unless also provided by the law, usually in the form of punishment rather than duty.

Proponents of Declarationism claim that Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas is a follower of this school of thought; however, Thomas is more widely considered a member of the strict constructionist school.

Though philosophically conservative, Declarationists such as Jaffa have been outspoken critics of originalist construction jurists including Robert Bork, Antonin Scalia, and William Rehnquist, likening them to legal positivists. Bork and legal scholar Lino Graglia have, in turn, critiqued the Declarationist position, retorting that it is single-mindedly obsessive over the Dred Scott decision and resembles a theology rather than a legal doctrine.[citation needed] Former U.S. presidential hopeful Alan Keyes is a proponent of declarationism.[1]

In 2008, an essay by Brigham Young University law professor A. Scott Loveless[2] entitled "The Forgotten Founding Document: The Overlooked Legal Contribution of the Declaration of Independence And CaliforniaÂ’s Opportunity to Revive It Through Proposition 8"[3] argues for the Declaration's connection to the laws of the United States of America and the inseparability of rights and responsibilities.

Declarationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In fairness The Declarationists V.S. The Weenies. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
God may have "given us" rights.

But they're obviously not inalieable rights.

Any fool with a knife can take away every one of your so-called inalienable rights by killing you.

If it can be taken away from you, it's not inalienable, folks....it's far too alienable in that case.

ROFLMNAO....

Taking one's life, does not take one's right to that life.

However, when the taking of that life is executed absent a sound moral justification; the taking of another's life IS evidence that one has failed to recognize and maintain the responsibility on which the Right to their own life and rightful entitlement to exercise that life rests; whereupon in that instant, one forfeits their own Right to their own life; as it then falls to other free men to destroy that individual, in defense of the rights of the innocent.

You returning every week or two to declare this wholly discredited farce, notwithstanding.

As I said... the debate is over.
 
I swear I've seen this a million times

Fact: Humanity did not create itself...
Fact: Something other than humanity created humanity.
Fact: That which created Humanity is referred to as God.

So evolution = God?

You pray to natural selection?

Fact: The creation endowed life to humanity;

You've yet to demonstrate that

Fact: With that life comes the rightful entitlement to pursue the fulfillment of that life;

You've yet to demonstrate that
Fact: that rightful entitlement comes with the sacred responsibility to not exercise the pursuit of one's own life; to the detriment of the means of another to pursue the fulfillment of their own life.

You've yet to demonstrate that

All you've done is curse and call for genocide.
 
God may have "given us" rights.

But they're obviously not inalieable rights.

Any fool with a knife can take away every one of your so-called inalienable rights by killing you.

If it can be taken away from you, it's not inalienable, folks....it's far too alienable in that case.

What You are claiming is that Our Nation has no foundation. What you misunderstand is the meaning of Inalienable Rights.
[/quote]

No, what I understand is the meaning of the WORD INALIENABLE.

Now you obviously understand it IN PART, too.


"Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred." Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523:

Sadly you still miss the point of the word because you think that just because I canot give you my right, you are under the mistaken notion that nobody can take that right away from me.

The dead have NO RIGHTS WHATEVER, sport.


You are confusing a policitcal GOAL for a FACT.

Under the LAW you have rights that are inalienable, perhaps.

But in reality, you only have the rights you can keep.
 
God may have "given us" rights.

But they're obviously not inalieable rights.

Any fool with a knife can take away every one of your so-called inalienable rights by killing you.

If it can be taken away from you, it's not inalienable, folks....it's far too alienable in that case.

What You are claiming is that Our Nation has no foundation. What you misunderstand is the meaning of Inalienable Rights.


No, what I understand is the meaning of the WORD INALIENABLE.

Now you obviously understand it IN PART, too.


"Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred." Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523:

Sadly you still miss the point of the word because you think that just because I canot give you my right, you are under the mistaken notion that nobody can take that right away from me.

The dead have NO RIGHTS WHATEVER, sport.


You are confusing a policitcal GOAL for a FACT.

Under the LAW you have rights that are inalienable, perhaps.

But in reality, you only have the rights you can keep.[/QUOTE]

Wrong. You Murder and there is consequence. You confuse Inalienable Right with magic protective shield. You are obviously not a Declarationist, that makes you a weenie. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
God may have "given us" rights.

But they're obviously not inalieable rights.

Any fool with a knife can take away every one of your so-called inalienable rights by killing you.

If it can be taken away from you, it's not inalienable, folks....it's far too alienable in that case.

violate =/= deprive

you must defend your rights or die trying. otherwise, you consent to forfeit them. this is like saying, "because elemental sodium reacts violently with water to make lye in solution, elemental sodium does not exist." You have rights and they can be violated. If you allow them to be violated, then you forfeit them. If you die defending them, then you died free (with all your rights).
 
God may have "given us" rights.

But they're obviously not inalieable rights.

Any fool with a knife can take away every one of your so-called inalienable rights by killing you.

If it can be taken away from you, it's not inalienable, folks....it's far too alienable in that case.

What You are claiming is that Our Nation has no foundation. What you misunderstand is the meaning of Inalienable Rights.


No, what I understand is the meaning of the WORD INALIENABLE.

Now you obviously understand it IN PART, too.


"Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred." Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523:

Sadly you still miss the point of the word because you think that just because I canot give you my right, you are under the mistaken notion that nobody can take that right away from me.

The dead have NO RIGHTS WHATEVER, sport.

False... The Dead have moved from this life; having been prevented from exercising their rightful entitlement to pursue the fulfillment of their life... they departed this life with every Right with which they were endowed upon their conception into this life. Your having taken their life, without sound moral justifcation did not change that in the least... Your unjustified usurpation of their means to exercise that right did not effect their Right in any way... you merely prevented them from exercising that right.

Thus you become the target of those who are bound by the respnsibilities inherent in their own Rights; to defend the means to exercise those Rights; by recognizing that you have failed to recognize the inherent responsibilities intrinsic in your rightful entitlement to pursue the fulfillment of your life and thus represent a threat to all, who are equally vested with those same rights.

Understand what this imbecile is saying... and this is the SAME ARGUMENT that those who languish in ignore are professing; the core argument never changes: 'You are not entitled to anything which an oppossing force says you're not entitled; as long as that oppossing force is sufficient to prevent you from exercising that entitlement.'

Thus Editec's position advances, in effect, the same long discredited notion that ALL humanists advance, which is that "Might, in fact, makes Right... "

Now they'll REEL at the exposure... they'll quickly run to deny that such is the case; but in fact; what Ed is saying is that the removal of something to which another is said to be entitled; proves that the entitlement did not exist...

So imagine that you've an item of property... it's an item which was given to you by your parents... Ed comes along and takes it. You've insufficient power to force Ed to return it to you... Ed concludes then, that because she was able to take that to which you were entitled, that this establishes that you were not actually entitled to it.

This is a position which is quite common amongst those who enjoy a temporal power.

The fact is that one is rightfully entitled to the use of that to which they are rightfully entitled; that no human power is sufficient to remove that rightful entitlement... that the simple usurpation of the means to exercise that rightful entitlement, does not change the entitlement; but only the means to exercise it.

Ed erronerously feels that the means to exercise the entitlement, IS the entitlement.
 
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The anti-intellectuals have turned this is to a religious crusade

After, of course, calling for genocide against all who do not agree with their religious ideas
 
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But in reality, you only have the rights you can keep.

OK, then you have the right to kill if you can get away with it? I think you're confusing right with ability. Don't worry it's a common mistake as we've seen in these 100+ pages.
 
Pub, you know medical science can cure premature acclamation don't you? :lol:

There's nothing premaure about it...

As is always the case in such debates; the facts are in and your obtuse response to those facts doesn't change them.

Fact: Humanity did not create itself...
Fact: Something other than humanity created humanity.
Fact: That which created Humanity is referred to as God.
Fact: The creation endowed life to humanity;
Fact: With that life comes the rightful entitlement to pursue the fulfillment of that life;
Fact: that rightful entitlement comes with the sacred responsibility to not exercise the pursuit of one's own life; to the detriment of the means of another to pursue the fulfillment of their own life.
Fact: where one fails to recognize one's own Right and the sacred responsibility inherent in that Right; and exercises their Rights to the detriment of another's means to exercise their own Right; one forfeits their Right.

Nothing complicated about it... and refusing to accept it, doesn't change it.

No facts there, just a bunch of assumptions and claims. I can see your problem now.
 
This is a philosophical discussion, so I don't think facts really do us very much good here anyway. Claims and assumptions are about all we can make in a philosophical discussion. I think that's what PI meant by "fact" hoping that you would agree that the things that he typed "fact" next to were incontrovertible. We need a common set of assumptions (axioms) if we are going to make any deductions about rights. I don't think we'll ever agree on a set of assumptions because we'll each be trying to engineer our axioms to arrive at the conclusions that we've already made.
 
This is a philosophical discussion, so I don't think facts really do us very much good here anyway. Claims and assumptions are about all we can make in a philosophical discussion. I think that's what PI meant by "fact" hoping that you would agree that the things that he typed "fact" next to were incontrovertible. We need a common set of assumptions (axioms) if we are going to make any deductions about rights. I don't think we'll ever agree on a set of assumptions because we'll each be trying to engineer our axioms to arrive at the conclusions that we've already made.

The problem with Pub's premature acclamation is that it hinders us from sorting the issues out. I hope - and I know I'm sometimes a blindly stubborn type - that my thoughts as expressed here are, while firmly held, aren't held so tight that I can't let them be re-worked. Yes, there's a danger we will simply ignore anything that doesn't support our case but that's an attitude problem we have to work on. I don't excise myself from that demand. It just gives me the shits when someone blurts out "we proved it, we're done" when patently that's not the case and that applies on either side of the argument.
 
Pub, you know medical science can cure premature acclamation don't you? :lol:

There's nothing premaure about it...

As is always the case in such debates; the facts are in and your obtuse response to those facts doesn't change them.

Fact: Humanity did not create itself...
Fact: Something other than humanity created humanity.
Fact: That which created Humanity is referred to as God.
Fact: The creation endowed life to humanity;
Fact: With that life comes the rightful entitlement to pursue the fulfillment of that life;
Fact: that rightful entitlement comes with the sacred responsibility to not exercise the pursuit of one's own life; to the detriment of the means of another to pursue the fulfillment of their own life.
Fact: where one fails to recognize one's own Right and the sacred responsibility inherent in that Right; and exercises their Rights to the detriment of another's means to exercise their own Right; one forfeits their Right.

Nothing complicated about it... and refusing to accept it, doesn't change it.

No facts there, just a bunch of assumptions and claims. I can see your problem now.

ROFLMNAO... I just adore sweet irony...

Notice how she advanced a claimed assumption; as she implies that claimed assumptions are invalid argument...

LOL... ya can't make this crap up.

Now when ya add to that these idiots hold themselves up as intellectuals... it is absolutely HYSTERICAL! (In at least two contexts and on several levels...)
 
This is a philosophical discussion, so I don't think facts really do us very much good here anyway. Claims and assumptions are about all we can make in a philosophical discussion. I think that's what PI meant by "fact" hoping that you would agree that the things that he typed "fact" next to were incontrovertible. We need a common set of assumptions (axioms) if we are going to make any deductions about rights. I don't think we'll ever agree on a set of assumptions because we'll each be trying to engineer our axioms to arrive at the conclusions that we've already made.

No... PI meant by 'fact' that those items are self evident; thus incontrovertible fact.

Axoims are dangerous in such discussions as they expose the argument to the flaws common to such.

My argument is not axiomatic... it is intellectually sound, logically valid, well reasoned and founded in: incontrovertible fact.
 
15th post
This is a philosophical discussion, so I don't think facts really do us very much good here anyway. Claims and assumptions are about all we can make in a philosophical discussion. I think that's what PI meant by "fact" hoping that you would agree that the things that he typed "fact" next to were incontrovertible. We need a common set of assumptions (axioms) if we are going to make any deductions about rights. I don't think we'll ever agree on a set of assumptions because we'll each be trying to engineer our axioms to arrive at the conclusions that we've already made.

Put Your Slide Rule away already! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Make up a Hypothetical and run with it. I've asked you to do that before.
 
This is a philosophical discussion, so I don't think facts really do us very much good here anyway. Claims and assumptions are about all we can make in a philosophical discussion. I think that's what PI meant by "fact" hoping that you would agree that the things that he typed "fact" next to were incontrovertible. We need a common set of assumptions (axioms) if we are going to make any deductions about rights. I don't think we'll ever agree on a set of assumptions because we'll each be trying to engineer our axioms to arrive at the conclusions that we've already made.

The problem with Pub's premature acclamation is that it hinders us from sorting the issues out. I hope - and I know I'm sometimes a blindly stubborn type - that my thoughts as expressed here are, while firmly held, aren't held so tight that I can't let them be re-worked. Yes, there's a danger we will simply ignore anything that doesn't support our case but that's an attitude problem we have to work on. I don't excise myself from that demand. It just gives me the shits when someone blurts out "we proved it, we're done" when patently that's not the case and that applies on either side of the argument.

We know that your thoughts are firmly held. You are not a Declarationist . That makes you a Weenie.
You have Our permission to pick a new Title, just so long as it is not God. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
This is a philosophical discussion, so I don't think facts really do us very much good here anyway. Claims and assumptions are about all we can make in a philosophical discussion. I think that's what PI meant by "fact" hoping that you would agree that the things that he typed "fact" next to were incontrovertible. We need a common set of assumptions (axioms) if we are going to make any deductions about rights. I don't think we'll ever agree on a set of assumptions because we'll each be trying to engineer our axioms to arrive at the conclusions that we've already made.

Put Your Slide Rule away already! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Make up a Hypothetical and run with it. I've asked you to do that before.

I've posted my hypotheses several times, but was never able to reach a consensus. I think we came close at one point (minus flamers like JBeukema and Setarcos), but it's useless to just keep repeating the same thing over and over whether we all agree or not. If we don't agree, then it's important to reconcile those differences. Otherwise why are we here? To make fun of those we disagree with and circle jerk with those whom we agree?
 
This is a philosophical discussion, so I don't think facts really do us very much good here anyway. Claims and assumptions are about all we can make in a philosophical discussion. I think that's what PI meant by "fact" hoping that you would agree that the things that he typed "fact" next to were incontrovertible. We need a common set of assumptions (axioms) if we are going to make any deductions about rights. I don't think we'll ever agree on a set of assumptions because we'll each be trying to engineer our axioms to arrive at the conclusions that we've already made.

Put Your Slide Rule away already! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Make up a Hypothetical and run with it. I've asked you to do that before.

I've posted my hypotheses several times, but was never able to reach a consensus. I think we came close at one point (minus flamers like JBeukema and Setarcos), but it's useless to just keep repeating the same thing over and over whether we all agree or not. If we don't agree, then it's important to reconcile those differences. Otherwise why are we here? To make fun of those we disagree with and circle jerk with those whom we agree?

Topic: Moral Absolutism V.S. Moral Relativism. Give me an example , a what if, relevant factors, of concerns. Go. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 
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