What are your attitudes about Homosexuals?

[birddog]

Geeez! You guys still talking about Queers?

I have never met a Queer that I wasn't courteous to, but I have never liked their lifestyle.

 

[GISMYS]

Geeez! You guys still talking about Queers?

I have never met a Queer that I wasn't courteous to, but I have never liked their lifestyle.

YES!! LOVE THE SINNER BUT HATE HIS SIN. ALL SINNERS CAN CONFESS AND REPENT,BELIEVE AND ACCEPT JESUS AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR AND LIVE A HAPPY,BLESSED LIFE AS A son OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!!your choice!

 

[LockeJaw]

I don't think that law applies in Arizona if anywhere in the US. Everywhere I have been have businesses with signs proclaiming their right to refuse service to anyone. Besides, that law is unenforcable for many businesses like my own. If I don't want to do a job for someone, all I have to do is tell the person that Im all booked for the forseeable future. It'd be easier to enforce on service type businesses like restaurants, other than that...like I said...It's unenforceable.

I don't think any business should be forced to serve someone they wish not to, in almost every state businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. I see no reason for government to use force & threats of destroying businesses owner's livlihoods because they don't want to cater to a specific group. Freedom of association, it used to be respected in this country. How far we have fallen.

I don't think that there is any move afoot by the state to 'force acceptance'. The state could not force racists to accept African Americans as anything more than citizens with equal standing. As such, the racists were 'forced' to do business with and provide equal justice to African Americans. But no one was ever compelled to accept African Americans as part of the family.

Today the LGBT community desires tolerance, which means equality, under law. Discrimination in public accommodations, equality under law and equal access to the protections and privileges afforded by the marriage contract are in the forefront. Unless there is a compelling case for discrimination, there should be no discrimination.

If you own a photography studio or a catering firm or a bakery that normally does business with couples planning weddings, your services cannot be withheld to homosexual couples simply because you find their lifestyle 'icky'. If your business license says you are open to the public, you should be open to the public.

I agree but only for one reason. No way would an establishment that does not want my money be rewarded by getting my money. In this day and age you can open a competing business and call out the business that is discriminating to get their customers. However, the laws say if you are open to the public that means all of the public. If you dont want to serve the public then you lose the tax benefits and open a members only club.

 

[CorvusRexus]

But God created Satan knowing he would become evil, and also created him with the capacity to do evil. By that act, God thus created evil.

Or you could say that God didn't create evil, that evil is a part of this all-encompassing God and as such is as old as God himself. Interesting thought. By that, God did not create evil or good, and God is both.


Just curious, can anybody show me a Bible verse that says God created Satan?

It's possible that "God" isn't quite what people think. Or, perhaps, God can't fully beat back a separate entity such as the satanic vortex. In either case there seems to be quite a push and pull between the two intents as individual spirits are tested.

It could be the clever design of one Omnipotent mind. Or it could be that there is more to this universe than we know and to keep from blowing our minds, it's been rendered into a religion; a tale we can relate to in the most superficial sense. It serves a practical and didactic purpose while at the same time buffering us from that immensity of knowledge that would flatten our puny sanity here in an instant if it were to all be known at once.

In either event, what does this have to do with forcing people to speak out in favor of something that violates their constitutional freedom to adhere to their deeply held religious beliefs oh King Crow?

Funny, I was actually about to comment on how horribly derailed this thread has become. We're trying to show GISMYS that God is not the answer to everything and homosexuals aren't bad. I am not suggesting you have to support homosexuality, just don't automatically hate them and condemn them to Hell.

 

[GISMYS]

I don't think that law applies in Arizona if anywhere in the US. Everywhere I have been have businesses with signs proclaiming their right to refuse service to anyone. Besides, that law is unenforcable for many businesses like my own. If I don't want to do a job for someone, all I have to do is tell the person that Im all booked for the forseeable future. It'd be easier to enforce on service type businesses like restaurants, other than that...like I said...It's unenforceable.

I don't think any business should be forced to serve someone they wish not to, in almost every state businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. I see no reason for government to use force & threats of destroying businesses owner's livlihoods because they don't want to cater to a specific group. Freedom of association, it used to be respected in this country. How far we have fallen.

I agree but only for one reason. No way would an establishment that does not want my money be rewarded by getting my money. In this day and age you can open a competing business and call out the business that is discriminating to get their customers. However, the laws say if you are open to the public that means all of the public. If you dont want to serve the public then you lose the tax benefits and open a members only club.

I want no thieves,killers,sexual perverts MONEY. I WANT TO SEE THEM CONFESS AND REPENT.

 

[CorvusRexus]

SATAN(LUCIFER) ==14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

This is not an earthly king, as the word "cherub" is only used in references to angels.

15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
EZEKIEL 28:12

Fine, I'm breaking out my Bible.

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:


“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[a]
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”
Unless Satan was the King of Tyre (a city located on the Mediterranean), this isn't about Satan, rather, an earthly king who lost favor with God.

 

[LockeJaw]

Geeez! You guys still talking about Queers?

I have never met a Queer that I wasn't courteous to, but I have never liked their lifestyle.

I'm talking more about the aspect of anti-discrimination laws and the unconstitutionality of it all. The most recent examples have been gays trying to force businesses to cater to them, so yeah....still talking about queers, but Id feel the same way if it were any other group trying to force businesses to cater to them when they clearly do not wish to.

It's that libertarian streak in me I guess...

 

[GISMYS]

SATAN(LUCIFER) ==14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

This is not an earthly king, as the word "cherub" is only used in references to angels.

15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
EZEKIEL 28:12

Fine, I'm breaking out my Bible.

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:


“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[a]
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”
Unless Satan was the King of Tyre (a city located on the Mediterranean), this isn't about Satan, rather, an earthly king who lost favor with God.

before you read GOD'S WORD pray for GOD to give you wisdom and understanding!!!

 

[CorvusRexus]

SATAN(LUCIFER) ==14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

This is not an earthly king, as the word "cherub" is only used in references to angels.

15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
EZEKIEL 28:12

Fine, I'm breaking out my Bible.

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:


“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[a]
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”
Unless Satan was the King of Tyre (a city located on the Mediterranean), this isn't about Satan, rather, an earthly king who lost favor with God.

before you read GOD'S WORD pray for GOD to give you wisdom and understanding!!!

You just hate people quoting an entire passage and not being selective.

 

[GISMYS]

fine, i'm breaking out my bible.

11 the word of the lord came to me: 12 “son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of tyre and say to him: ‘this is what the sovereign lord says:


“‘you were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13
you were in eden,
the garden of god;
every precious stone adorned you:
Carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[a]
your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14
you were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so i ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of god;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15
you were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16
through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So i drove you in disgrace from the mount of god,
and i expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17
your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So i threw you to the earth;
i made a spectacle of you before kings.

18
by your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So i made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and i reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19
all the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”
unless satan was the king of tyre (a city located on the mediterranean), this isn't about satan, rather, an earthly king who lost favor with god.

before you read god's word pray for god to give you wisdom and understanding!!!

you just hate people quoting an entire passage and not being selective.

you feel free to quote all the bible you can!!! BUT PRAY THAT GOD GIVE YOU UNDERSTANDING!!!

 

[bodecea]

SATAN(LUCIFER) ==14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

This is not an earthly king, as the word "cherub" is only used in references to angels.

15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
EZEKIEL 28:12

What's the weather like today out in the Castro District of San Francisco GISMYS? [Or maybe it's West Hollywood?] Wasn't it John Muir who said the coldest day in Winter he ever spent was a Summer in San Francisco?...

I believe it was Mark Twain (Samuel Clemons)

 

[Nosmo King]

I don't think any business should be forced to serve someone they wish not to, in almost every state businesses have the right to refuse service to anyone. I see no reason for government to use force & threats of destroying businesses owner's livlihoods because they don't want to cater to a specific group. Freedom of association, it used to be respected in this country. How far we have fallen.

I don't understand. How is turning away business better than having business open to everyone? Why does Woolworth's serve Black customers? Why are Black travelers welcomed on Greyhound busses? How could it be beneficial to the business owner to discriminate when first, that immediate sale is lost and then, by word of mouth, potentially hundreds of sales are lost.

If a business is open to the public, that business should be literally open to the public.

I am not saying it would be a smart business move to turn away business, it's not. You know my stances on homosexuals, I still will do business with a homosexual client. Granted, there aren't many out here to do business with, but since Ive been open in AZ, Ive had 3 contracts with homosexual owned businesses. If they asked me to help them build something to further their agenda, that's something I would refuse, but most of the homosexual owned businesses have been things like Hair & Nail salons & Restaurants & don't outwardly promote anything homosexual.

The point is telling someone to serve someone in a way that goes against your beliefs & principles is DEAD WRONG. You do not have the right to force people to cater to you. That's just a step above slavery and is unacceptable.

Would believe the same thing if the scenario were that a couple of KKK members walked into my business, and Im black, and asked me to help them build a compound for them. I'm going to not only refuse to do the job, Id grab my shotgun From my desk drawer & tell them to get the hell out before I blow their heads off. But according to you, Im Guilty of the evil of discrimination for not serving ALL of the public, being that I am licensed to serve the public.

Just because I am licensed to serve the public does not mean I cannot decide who I will serve. Does that make it a little clearer to you?

By the way, I am enjoying this civil discussion. Props for keeping it civil!

Is it right, is it ethical , is it proper to turn business away because the client is homosexual so long as the services requested are the exact same services you would provide to any other client?

For example: you're a baker in a small town. There may be one other baker in the community, but his goods are not the quality of yours and he has few customers as a result. A homosexual couple comes into your store and asks for a wedding cake. The design is one you've executed many times over for heterosexual weddings. Nothing profane, nothing explicit. Could you legally turn away the homosexual couple? Remember, there are public accommodation laws on the books.

Can you the baker use some justification to discriminate? The homosexual couple did not ask for services unusual to your daily operation. The only unusual aspect happens to be which sex the spouses are. What legal standing would the baker have to refuse service?

This is a matter of TOKLERANCE, not acceptance.

And nothing approaching slavery is in the cards here. The homosexual couple's check cleared the bank. You are getting paid. You are not being asked to construct a float for the Gay Pride parade. That is all I can imagine when you say something like "further(ing) their agenda".

 

[Seawytch]

If churches have that right why can't cake makers have that right too?

Read the 1st Amendment...sound out the words. A cake shop is not a religious institution and a baker not a religious leader.

Where in the 1st Amendment does it say they have to be?

Case law.

 

[Seawytch]

Geeez! You guys still talking about Queers?



I have never met a Queer that I wasn't courteous to, but I have never liked their lifestyle.

I'm talking more about the aspect of anti-discrimination laws and the unconstitutionality of it all. The most recent examples have been gays trying to force businesses to cater to them, so yeah....still talking about queers, but Id feel the same way if it were any other group trying to force businesses to cater to them when they clearly do not wish to.



It's that libertarian streak in me I guess...

So get on the repeal of ALL public accommodation laws...instead of just bitching because, in some places, they protect gays too.

 

[LockeJaw]

Is it right, is it ethical , is it proper to turn business away because the client is homosexual so long as the services requested are the exact same services you would provide to any other client?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on the individual business owner & the situation. I personally will not turn down any business unless it violates what I believe is right, what I believe is ethical, & what I believe is proper. Like I said, as long as it is not something that I do not want a hand in promoting, I will do business with whoever it is so long as they've got the money.


For example: you're a baker in a small town. There may be one other baker in the community, but his goods are not the quality of yours and he has few customers as a result. A homosexual couple comes into your store and asks for a wedding cake. The design is one you've executed many times over for heterosexual weddings. Nothing profane, nothing explicit. Could you legally turn away the homosexual couple? Remember, there are public accommodation laws on the books.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not support public accomodation laws, they are coeercive & borderline slavery. At one point in time they may have been needed, not anymore. If all they asked for was a wedding cake, and didn't specify that it was theirs, my concious is clear. For all I know, they're wedding planners. I wouldn't carry two male figurines in my store so they'd have to supply those themselves from another source.

Can you the baker use some justification to discriminate? The homosexual couple did not ask for services unusual to your daily operation. The only unusual aspect happens to be which sex the spouses are. What legal standing would the baker have to refuse service?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my religious freedom trumps public accomodation laws would be the basis I would go with when taking it to court, maybe I win, maybe I won't. Would probably depend upon the political ideology of the judge. That's how things seem to be going.

This is a matter of TOKLERANCE, not acceptance.

And nothing approaching slavery is in the cards here. The homosexual couple's check cleared the bank. You are getting paid. You are not being asked to construct a float for the Gay Pride parade. That is all I can imagine when you say something like "further(ing) their agenda".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it's still my business....I view someone telling me who to serve as damn near slavery.

 

[LockeJaw]

Oh I have contacted the proper people numerous times & I have been assured that they will consider it. Yeah right...politicians are moral cowards. I seriously think people would hardly notice a difference other than some people will choose to exercise their right to not serve those they wish not to serve, by and large, gays wouldn't face any more discrimination than they do currently.

on a sidenote, I heard an unconfirmed rumor...so I don't know if it's true or not... That a lot of this stuff going on with gays and businesses was encouraged by gay activist groups who are taking Christian church newsletters, taking down the names of the businesses and business owners that advertise in them, and purposely trying to start shit. Like I said, I don't know if it's true, but it sounds plausable & if it were true...would you agree with using this low down dirty tactic?

Geeez! You guys still talking about Queers?



I have never met a Queer that I wasn't courteous to, but I have never liked their lifestyle.

I'm talking more about the aspect of anti-discrimination laws and the unconstitutionality of it all. The most recent examples have been gays trying to force businesses to cater to them, so yeah....still talking about queers, but Id feel the same way if it were any other group trying to force businesses to cater to them when they clearly do not wish to.



It's that libertarian streak in me I guess...

So get on the repeal of ALL public accommodation laws...instead of just bitching because, in some places, they protect gays too.

 

[Slyhunter]

Is it right, is it ethical , is it proper to turn business away because the client is homosexual so long as the services requested are the exact same services you would provide to any other client?

Maybe the post got too long but it wouldn't let me quote the pertinent part I wanted to quote so I edited everything else out.

Define same services. A cake with a bride and groom on it would be the same service. A cake with two males on it would be a different service and the store owner/baker might not have the props to make it work. Why would he keep them in stock. So the same would be if the gay folks accepted a male and a female on their wedding cake.

 

[Slyhunter]

Read the 1st Amendment...sound out the words. A cake shop is not a religious institution and a baker not a religious leader.

Where in the 1st Amendment does it say they have to be?

Case law.

uhuh, saying "case law" doesn't answer my question. Quoting case law would. And since you didn't I bet you can't.

Just because your not a preacher or a church does not mean you don't get 1st amendment rights.

 

[Nosmo King]

Is it right, is it ethical , is it proper to turn business away because the client is homosexual so long as the services requested are the exact same services you would provide to any other client?

Maybe the post got too long but it wouldn't let me quote the pertinent part I wanted to quote so I edited everything else out.

Define same services. A cake with a bride and groom on it would be the same service. A cake with two males on it would be a different service and the store owner/baker might not have the props to make it work. Why would he keep them in stock. So the same would be if the gay folks accepted a male and a female on their wedding cake.

What if the baker did not stock a cake topper featuring an Asian groom and a Black bride? Wouldn't the baker have to order it?

 

[Asclepias]

SATAN(LUCIFER) ==14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

This is not an earthly king, as the word "cherub" is only used in references to angels.

15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
EZEKIEL 28:12

Fine, I'm breaking out my Bible.

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:


“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[a]
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”
Unless Satan was the King of Tyre (a city located on the Mediterranean), this isn't about Satan, rather, an earthly king who lost favor with God.

before you read GOD'S WORD pray for GOD to give you wisdom and understanding!!!

IOW psyche yourself out before reading the bible so you believe its true and conforms to what Gizmo wants you to believe it means.