What Are the US Goals In Ukraine?

[The Rabbi]

Because we are very stupid when it comes to foreign policy. We need to get over the idea that we are the world police force and morals code enforcer.

'live and let live' will get us a lot farther than 'do it my way or else'.

So you agree we do have an interest because we signed a guarantee, right?

No, we may have a moral committment but we have no national interest----you do see the difference, right?

If we made a legal commitment that is not a moral commitment. You understand the difference, right? And isn't living up to commitments both a moral issue and an issue vital to national security?

 

[kaz]

This is actually a serious question. Based on statements by the administration, what are our stated goals in dealing with the Russians on the Ukraine issue?

I ask because I havent heard one yet. And if the administration cannot articulate its goals, it cannot achieve them.

the Goals are the expansion of NATO up to the door step of Russia. It all kicked off when The Ukraine GOV refused the EU deal which happened to have as part of the deal opening up to NATO. Its all backfiring (if it wasn't so dangerous I would be laughing my ass off) they lost Crimea and the GOV they imposed are a bunch of nutters and wont necessarily do as they are told.

Ukraine has this tendency to play Russia and the EU against each other.....

will it continue doing this or will it finally decide which side it wants to be on....?

It doesn't seem to be working for them...

 

[Redfish]

So you agree we do have an interest because we signed a guarantee, right?

No, we may have a moral committment but we have no national interest----you do see the difference, right?

If we made a legal commitment that is not a moral commitment. You understand the difference, right? And isn't living up to commitments both a moral issue and an issue vital to national security?

first, no international treaty is a "legal" committment. There is no body of international law to make such a treaty legal or illegal, or to enforce it. So the only thing it could be is a moral or ethical commitment. We ignore those every day--not saying that is right, just stating facts.

Crimea is not our fight. let the people who live there decide who they want leading them. They voted for Russia, we should STFU and leave them alone. there is no US national security issue involved in crimea rejoining russia

 

[ScreamingEagle]

the Goals are the expansion of NATO up to the door step of Russia. It all kicked off when The Ukraine GOV refused the EU deal which happened to have as part of the deal opening up to NATO. Its all backfiring (if it wasn't so dangerous I would be laughing my ass off) they lost Crimea and the GOV they imposed are a bunch of nutters and wont necessarily do as they are told.

Ukraine has this tendency to play Russia and the EU against each other.....

will it continue doing this or will it finally decide which side it wants to be on....?

all the more reason for us to stay out of it.

80% of Russia's oil flows through Ukraine....which is also the breadbasket of Russia and that whole area....why would we want to ignore such a strategic country....?

 

[dannyboys]

This is actually a serious question. Based on statements by the administration, what are our stated goals in dealing with the Russians on the Ukraine issue?

I ask because I havent heard one yet. And if the administration cannot articulate its goals, it cannot achieve them.

the Goals are the expansion of NATO up to the door step of Russia. It all kicked off when The Ukraine GOV refused the EU deal which happened to have as part of the deal opening up to NATO. Its all backfiring (if it wasn't so dangerous I would be laughing my ass off) they lost Crimea and the GOV they imposed are a bunch of nutters and wont necessarily do as they are told.

Ukraine has this tendency to play Russia and the EU against each other.....

will it continue doing this or will it finally decide which side it wants to be on....?

BINGO!!!!!!!
I was waiting for some one to make this observation.
I'm going to go really slow now so some of you may actually understand a bit of history as it relates to all central European countries.
POLITICS is the national sport and religion is a close second.
Remember in City Slickers when the guys were telling 'Bonnie' who played for what team at what position in 1967?
That is precisely how addicted to politics the vast majority of central Europeans are.
They can tell which politician voted for what law in 1967.
In the case of Ukraine the country is very divided religiously. With that comes the centuries old'social dynamics' people eat and breath.
If the people of Ukraine didn't have major 'issues' within their country they would invent some.
It's who they are.
Crimea is now gone back to where it always felt welcomed.
Look for a nice big civil war to cut the country in half.
Ukraine's churches: Inspiring and confusing | The Economist

 

[Redfish]

Ukraine has this tendency to play Russia and the EU against each other.....

will it continue doing this or will it finally decide which side it wants to be on....?

all the more reason for us to stay out of it.

80% of Russia's oil flows through Ukraine....which is also the breadbasket of Russia and that whole area....why would we want to ignore such a strategic country....?

If we had a sane national energy policy in this country, this would not be worth discussing. Why do we think we have to control every "strategic" country in the world? is south korea "strategic"? how about taiwan? how is the US national interest served by the billions we spend protecting those two countries?

Yeah, the Ukraine has oil and food. It does them no good unless they sell it.

 

[Redfish]

the Goals are the expansion of NATO up to the door step of Russia. It all kicked off when The Ukraine GOV refused the EU deal which happened to have as part of the deal opening up to NATO. Its all backfiring (if it wasn't so dangerous I would be laughing my ass off) they lost Crimea and the GOV they imposed are a bunch of nutters and wont necessarily do as they are told.

Ukraine has this tendency to play Russia and the EU against each other.....

will it continue doing this or will it finally decide which side it wants to be on....?

BINGO!!!!!!!
I was waiting for some one to make this observation.
I'm going to go really slow now so some of you may actually understand a bit of history as it relates to all central European countries.
POLITICS is the national sport and religion is a close second.
Remember in City Slickers when the guys were telling 'Bonnie' who played for what team at what position in 1967?
That is precisely how addicted to politics the vast majority of central Europeans are.
They can tell which politician voted for what law in 1967.
In the case of Ukraine the country is very divided religiously. With that comes the centuries old'social dynamics' people eat and breath.
If the people of Ukraine didn't have major 'issues' within their country they would invent some.
It's who they are.
Crimea is now gone back to where it always felt welcomed.
Look for a nice big civil war to cut the country in half.
Ukraine's churches: Inspiring and confusing | The Economist

good synopsis. and explains why we need to stay out of that mess.

 

[kaz]

all the more reason for us to stay out of it.

80% of Russia's oil flows through Ukraine....which is also the breadbasket of Russia and that whole area....why would we want to ignore such a strategic country....?

If we had a sane national energy policy in this country, this would not be worth discussing. Why do we think we have to control every "strategic" country in the world? is south korea "strategic"? how about taiwan? how is the US national interest served by the billions we spend protecting those two countries?

Yeah, the Ukraine has oil and food. It does them no good unless they sell it.

If we could go back in history and change how we got into some of these situations and how we handled them, then I'd love to be able to do that. However, to sell out countries now that are entirely dependent on us for defense and are now Western Democracies because of us would clearly embolden our enemies and jeopardize our interest.

Europe and the middle east are different, Europe doesn't need our defense and we don't belong in the Middle East and we're just propping up despots hated by their people.

 

[Redfish]

80% of Russia's oil flows through Ukraine....which is also the breadbasket of Russia and that whole area....why would we want to ignore such a strategic country....?

If we had a sane national energy policy in this country, this would not be worth discussing. Why do we think we have to control every "strategic" country in the world? is south korea "strategic"? how about taiwan? how is the US national interest served by the billions we spend protecting those two countries?

Yeah, the Ukraine has oil and food. It does them no good unless they sell it.

If we could go back in history and change how we got into some of these situations and how we handled them, then I'd love to be able to do that. However, to sell out countries now that are entirely dependent on us for defense and are now Western Democracies because of us would clearly embolden our enemies and jeopardize our interest.

Europe and the middle east are different, Europe doesn't need our defense and we don't belong in the Middle East and we're just propping up despots hated by their people.

if those countries want us to have bases there to protect them, then they should pay 100% of the cost of the bases.

We thought that there was some national interest in "saving" south viet nam----Duh, not ! The commies won, the country is doing fine and we wasted 58,000 american lives and billions of dollars for NOTHING.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

all the more reason for us to stay out of it.

80% of Russia's oil flows through Ukraine....which is also the breadbasket of Russia and that whole area....why would we want to ignore such a strategic country....?

If we had a sane national energy policy in this country, this would not be worth discussing. Why do we think we have to control every "strategic" country in the world? is south korea "strategic"? how about taiwan? how is the US national interest served by the billions we spend protecting those two countries?

Yeah, the Ukraine has oil and food. It does them no good unless they sell it.

we are the superpower of the world.....supporting justice and freedom in the world......or at least we were until the pathetic excuse of a U.S. president was elected....

when a weak country....especially a strategic one.....wants to be on its own apart from an oppresor who is also OUR enemy..... we should support it more than just issuing travel bans to a dozen officials....

or do you think Russia has the right to step in and just take them....? what next....? will Europe fall to Russia incrementally due to targeted cuts of winter heating oil....? Ukraine has great potential but if Russia takes over it will remain poor and suppressed but supporting our enemy....

 

[tinydancer]

80% of Russia's oil flows through Ukraine....which is also the breadbasket of Russia and that whole area....why would we want to ignore such a strategic country....?

If we had a sane national energy policy in this country, this would not be worth discussing. Why do we think we have to control every "strategic" country in the world? is south korea "strategic"? how about taiwan? how is the US national interest served by the billions we spend protecting those two countries?

Yeah, the Ukraine has oil and food. It does them no good unless they sell it.

we are the superpower of the world.....supporting justice and freedom in the world......or at least we were until the pathetic excuse of a U.S. president was elected....

when a weak country....especially a strategic one.....wants to be on its own apart from an oppresor who is also OUR enemy..... we should support it more than just issuing travel bans to a dozen officials....

or do you think Russia has the right to step in and just take them....? what next....? will Europe fall to Russia incrementally due to targeted cuts of winter heating oil....? Ukraine has great potential but if Russia takes over it will remain poor and suppressed but supporting our enemy....

But and this is a big but, this was an illegal coup.Why the hell are we backing this bullshit let alone giving this crew money? How much has Obama promised so far?

And why? The EU wanted them. Let them freaking pay for these assholes.

The opposition who were leading the riots in the streets overthrew a duly legally elected President who was pro Russian but had agreed in February to quick elections and a referendum on joining the EU or take Russia's offer.

Which btw was an awesome offer financially for the Ukraine.

AND this agreement was a brokered agreement with EU partners, Russia and the legal President. The opposition kept rioting. They wanted the coup.

 

[tinydancer]

If we had a sane national energy policy in this country, this would not be worth discussing. Why do we think we have to control every "strategic" country in the world? is south korea "strategic"? how about taiwan? how is the US national interest served by the billions we spend protecting those two countries?

Yeah, the Ukraine has oil and food. It does them no good unless they sell it.

If we could go back in history and change how we got into some of these situations and how we handled them, then I'd love to be able to do that. However, to sell out countries now that are entirely dependent on us for defense and are now Western Democracies because of us would clearly embolden our enemies and jeopardize our interest.

Europe and the middle east are different, Europe doesn't need our defense and we don't belong in the Middle East and we're just propping up despots hated by their people.

if those countries want us to have bases there to protect them, then they should pay 100% of the cost of the bases.

We thought that there was some national interest in "saving" south viet nam----Duh, not ! The commies won, the country is doing fine and we wasted 58,000 american lives and billions of dollars for NOTHING.

Geeze louise look at what has happened in the past couple of years. Our idiotic leaders have backed the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt overthrowing a long time ally Mubarak.

Well that turned out just swell now didn't it? Then our morons in Washington and Ottawa and London decide...hey let's help them turn over Libya!.

Well that part of Arab Spring has turned into a steaming pile of fecal matter. The economy has gone for shit. No definitive ruling party and the country has gone to militias controlling different areas.

Oh yeah. The rebels really wanted democracy. Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket.

Then we have Syria. If the faux rebels hadn't been busted for being paid mercenaries and others linked to AQ damn we would have been in like flint.

Cripes, Obama is negotiating with the Taliban in Qatar over Afghanistan. It's a dogs breakfast every time we stick our nose into other countries business.

AND it has come with your tax dollars and my tax dollars all for these major **** ups. Pardon my french but I am seriously pissed.

So now we come to the Ukraine. WTF? Like the other bullshit hasn't been enough?

 

[Camp]

If we had a sane national energy policy in this country, this would not be worth discussing. Why do we think we have to control every "strategic" country in the world? is south korea "strategic"? how about taiwan? how is the US national interest served by the billions we spend protecting those two countries?

Yeah, the Ukraine has oil and food. It does them no good unless they sell it.

we are the superpower of the world.....supporting justice and freedom in the world......or at least we were until the pathetic excuse of a U.S. president was elected....

when a weak country....especially a strategic one.....wants to be on its own apart from an oppresor who is also OUR enemy..... we should support it more than just issuing travel bans to a dozen officials....

or do you think Russia has the right to step in and just take them....? what next....? will Europe fall to Russia incrementally due to targeted cuts of winter heating oil....? Ukraine has great potential but if Russia takes over it will remain poor and suppressed but supporting our enemy....

But and this is a big but, this was an illegal coup.Why the hell are we backing this bullshit let alone giving this crew money? How much has Obama promised so far?

And why? The EU wanted them. Let them freaking pay for these assholes.

The opposition who were leading the riots in the streets overthrew a duly legally elected President who was pro Russian but had agreed in February to quick elections and a referendum on joining the EU or take Russia's offer.

Which btw was an awesome offer financially for the Ukraine.

AND this agreement was a brokered agreement with EU partners, Russia and the legal President. The opposition kept rioting. They wanted the coup.

Why do you call this an "illegal coup"? Do you not recognize the parliaments use of Article 108 Part 3 and Article 111 of the Ukraine Constitution? Is it your belief that the parliament did not have the right to impeach Yanukovich as specified in the Constitution?

 

[Contumacious]

Why do you call this an "illegal coup"? Do you not recognize the parliaments use of Article 108 Part 3 and Article 111 of the Ukraine Constitution? Is it your belief that the parliament did not have the right to impeach Yanukovich as specified in the Constitution?

Why Does Ukraine Seem So Much Like Syria?

Daniel McAdams

US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland was recorded plotting the overthrow and replacement of the Ukrainian government with the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt.

Pyatt, a man surely devoid of any sense of self-reflection, boldly proclaimed that his recorded plotting to overthrow of the Ukrainian government was merely “helping to build bridges between the government and the opposition.” Of course in a strict sense that is true: he is actively engaged in building a bridge to government power for the Ukrainian opposition."

.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

If we had a sane national energy policy in this country, this would not be worth discussing. Why do we think we have to control every "strategic" country in the world? is south korea "strategic"? how about taiwan? how is the US national interest served by the billions we spend protecting those two countries?

Yeah, the Ukraine has oil and food. It does them no good unless they sell it.

we are the superpower of the world.....supporting justice and freedom in the world......or at least we were until the pathetic excuse of a U.S. president was elected....

when a weak country....especially a strategic one.....wants to be on its own apart from an oppresor who is also OUR enemy..... we should support it more than just issuing travel bans to a dozen officials....

or do you think Russia has the right to step in and just take them....? what next....? will Europe fall to Russia incrementally due to targeted cuts of winter heating oil....? Ukraine has great potential but if Russia takes over it will remain poor and suppressed but supporting our enemy....

But and this is a big but, this was an illegal coup.Why the hell are we backing this bullshit let alone giving this crew money? How much has Obama promised so far?

And why? The EU wanted them. Let them freaking pay for these assholes.

The opposition who were leading the riots in the streets overthrew a duly legally elected President who was pro Russian but had agreed in February to quick elections and a referendum on joining the EU or take Russia's offer.

Which btw was an awesome offer financially for the Ukraine.

AND this agreement was a brokered agreement with EU partners, Russia and the legal President. The opposition kept rioting. They wanted the coup.

alot of Ukrainians supported the coup against Yanukovych....a despot by any stretch of the imagination...

it's obvious the Ukrainian people want change from the corruption and oppression...but that is one big uphill battle.....

if there is a viable alternative to the Russian money i hope for the best......Russia of course has frozen its offer of financial help until after the election.....can't mess with those strings attached....but then any offer is going to come with strings attached....we will have to see how they vote in May...

hopefully the rest of Ukraine will remain unoccupied until then...

 

[ScreamingEagle]

there were 2 marches in Moscow over the weekend....

one that supported the Crimean takeover and one that didn't....guess which is which...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/w...ices-of-opposition-are-being-drowned-out.html

 

[Camp]

Why do you call this an "illegal coup"? Do you not recognize the parliaments use of Article 108 Part 3 and Article 111 of the Ukraine Constitution? Is it your belief that the parliament did not have the right to impeach Yanukovich as specified in the Constitution?

Why Does Ukraine Seem So Much Like Syria?

Daniel McAdams

US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland was recorded plotting the overthrow and replacement of the Ukrainian government with the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt.

Pyatt, a man surely devoid of any sense of self-reflection, boldly proclaimed that his recorded plotting to overthrow of the Ukrainian government was merely “helping to build bridges between the government and the opposition.” Of course in a strict sense that is true: he is actively engaged in building a bridge to government power for the Ukrainian opposition."

.

You can make the letters as giant size as you want, that will not make your link an actual link to an actual news or journalistic sight. Daniel McAdams in a libertarian political commentator and operative and the Lew Rockwell sight is a libertarian sight. Both are directly connected to Ron Paul. Nothing wrong with that, but they are not, and are not expected to be OBJECTIVE NEWS SOURCES. The link you give offers an opinion and interpretation of events that can be interpreted and has been interpreted in a totally different way by others. Your link gives access to political opinions by folks who have specific political agenda's and earn a living by promoting specific political agenda's. They spin stories to support their agenda's. That is how they make a living.

So the question remains unanswered. The Ukraine Constitution provides for the Parliament to impeach it's President with the specific sections I have supplied, Articale 108 Part 3 and Article 111. The Constitution was followed and the President was impeached and replaced by specific procedure as outlined in the Constitution. So how specifially was this a "coup" or illegal?

 

[Contumacious]

Why do you call this an "illegal coup"? Do you not recognize the parliaments use of Article 108 Part 3 and Article 111 of the Ukraine Constitution? Is it your belief that the parliament did not have the right to impeach Yanukovich as specified in the Constitution?

Why Does Ukraine Seem So Much Like Syria?

Daniel McAdams

US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland was recorded plotting the overthrow and replacement of the Ukrainian government with the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt.

Pyatt, a man surely devoid of any sense of self-reflection, boldly proclaimed that his recorded plotting to overthrow of the Ukrainian government was merely “helping to build bridges between the government and the opposition.” Of course in a strict sense that is true: he is actively engaged in building a bridge to government power for the Ukrainian opposition."

.

You can make the letters as giant size as you want, that will not make your link an actual link to an actual news or journalistic sight. Daniel McAdams in a libertarian political commentator and operative and the Lew Rockwell sight is a libertarian sight. Both are directly connected to Ron Paul. Nothing wrong with that, but they are not, and are not expected to be OBJECTIVE NEWS SOURCES.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, an "objective news source , by which I am certain you mean , a government controlled source.

Well here is the "objective" (wink, wink) news source


CBS/APFebruary 7, 2014, 6:59 AM


Top U.S. diplomat Victoria Nuland, Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt caught out in private chat leaked online

.

 

[Knowit]

While much of the west news media used this as a story line, it isn't true. The only place Russia had troops was in Crimea. Their right to have up twenty five thousand troops in Crimea came out of the lease of the warm water port for the Fleet they have there.
At no other time has Russia placed any troops in Ukraine.

 

[Knowit]

Don't read the news of the west.