Were Most Of America's Founding Fathers - Christians

[elektra]

When it comes to Franklin, whether he was a Quaker or Puritan, we can agree he was a christian in the general sense of the word.


I think the most radical founding father when it came to thoughts of god and faith was probably Thomas Paine.

I seriously doubt he was an atheist. Are these public school teaching Paine is an atheist? If they are not, who are the public schools accusing is an atheist?

Of all the founders, I think Paine was the only one who was possibly Deist, and Deism, of course, includes a belief in God.

I am not aware that Thomas Paine was a founding father, he was not a representative of any state, did not attend the Continental Congress, spent but a brief time in America.

Influential yes, a Founding Father no.

In a minor sense he is. He was no more than a pamphleteer and writer who inspired the Patriots in revolution, but that was enough to regard him among our revolutionary figures.

I agree

 

[Iceweasel]

Congress has the first Bible printed for the inhabitants of the USA and to be used in our schools.

Watch from :42 - 1:26. Then prove Barton wrong:

U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton.flv - YouTube

Ah. A goofy youtube video to prop up your failed argument.

Your pal Barton isn't here to defend his comment. You are.

What schools actually received the bibles you falsely portrayed as being printed by congress.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Yes, this was a Christian nation BUT not a Christian government. The nation is comprised of the people and the people were overwhelmingly Christian. That was manifested in a number of ways.

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men. The amount of energy that Congress invested in encouraging the practice of religion in the new nation exceeded that expended by any subsequent American national government. Although the Articles of Confederation did not officially authorize Congress to concern itself with religion, the citizenry did not object to such activities. This lack of objection suggests that both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity.

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Have you already started sipping wine? You're not making any sense.

Not at all. Ernie S. is one of those who believe in the idea of Christ in America envangelical narratives. The LDS Mormons are superior at the crafting.

Yet that is not what the facts show. The Founders seperated Church and State so we would not have religious weirdos telling the rest of America how to live.

Does that mean that the founders expected non-religious "weirdos telling the rest of America how to live?" Goose/Gander.

"David Barton’s ascendant star as a self-taught “historian” and influential leader of the evangelical far right crashed in a storm of ridicule when the world’s largest Christian publisher recalled Barton’s 2012 book, The Jefferson Lies, for too many serious whoppers — the kind of gross factual mistakes that are a death knell for any real historian. A prolific propagandist, Barton has long promoted the canard that our Founding Fathers never intended the separation of church and state but rather sought to construct a Christian nation. "
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/david-barton

To use this guy as your source is a profound humiliation to you in a conversation with credible people, including credible conservatives.
"Non-religious weirdos" are not telling anyone how to live.
They simply don't choose to be marginalized themselves.

 

[Hollie]

Not at all. Ernie S. is one of those who believe in the idea of Christ in America envangelical narratives. The LDS Mormons are superior at the crafting.

Yet that is not what the facts show. The Founders seperated Church and State so we would not have religious weirdos telling the rest of America how to live.

Does that mean that the founders expected non-religious "weirdos telling the rest of America how to live?" Goose/Gander.

"David Barton’s ascendant star as a self-taught “historian” and influential leader of the evangelical far right crashed in a storm of ridicule when the world’s largest Christian publisher recalled Barton’s 2012 book, The Jefferson Lies, for too many serious whoppers — the kind of gross factual mistakes that are a death knell for any real historian. A prolific propagandist, Barton has long promoted the canard that our Founding Fathers never intended the separation of church and state but rather sought to construct a Christian nation. "
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/david-barton

To use this guy as your source is a profound humiliation to you in a conversation with credible people, including credible conservatives.
"Non-religious weirdos" are not telling anyone how to live.
They simply don't choose to be marginalized themselves.

Yep.

Encyclopedia of American Loons: #14: David Barton

 

[thebrucebeat]

It wasn't in the original treaty and the English differs from the Arabic.



Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is very amusing you cite this article, because it makes the specific case that the version that was ratified by the Congress was the English version that does include the phrase in question.
You punked your own argument.

See the post above, Pastor. Or read this article.

Apologetics Press - The Treaty of Tripoli and America's Founders

I read the Wiki article you cited.
Did you?
LOL!!!

 

[DriftingSand]

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible ...

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

Using red color (and you should post with gargantuan fonts), does add melodrama but it doesn't prop-up your failed argument.

Why did you purposefully misrepresent that congress had bibles printed?

Further, you never did address what schools tactually received those bibles. Is that yet another claim to wish to retract?

May I suggest you try out for the U.S. Olympic swim team - the backstroke.

1) If you can't see the bright red font that clearly states that Congress sponsored the printing of the Bible then you are blind. You clearly didn't read the statements directly written and produced by the Library of Congress. That is called intellectual cowardice.

2)

As the Revolution continued, the shortage of Bibles remained a problem. In an effort to resolve the problem, in 1781, Robert Aitken, the publisher of The Pennsylvania Magazine, petitioned Congress for permission to print the Bibles on his presses here in America rather than import them. His request stated that his Bibles would be an "edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools." Congress approved his request, and appointed a committee to oversee the project.
As work to begin printing Bible neared completion, the chairman of the Congressional committee reported to Congress:

"He [Robert Aitken] undertook this expensive work at a time when from the circumstances of the war an English edition of the Bible could not be imported, nor any opinion formed how long the obstruction might continue. On this account particularly he deserves applause and encouragement."
​

In 1782, the full Congress approved the Bible, and printing began. This Bible became the first English Bible ever printed in America, and in the front of that Bible was the Congressional endorsement:

"Whereupon, Resolved, That the United States in Congress assembled... recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States."
​

The First American Bible

3) Have you ever heard of the McGuffey Readers? They were a textbooks widely used in America's schools during the early part of her history.

McGuffey Readers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a little information concerning the McGuffey Reader:

The McGuffey Readers, first published in 1836-37, were a set of highly influential school textbooks for use in the elementary and higher grades in the United States. Indeed, owing to their widespread usage over many years, they played an important role in shaping the American character itself. From the year in which they were first published, and for nearly a century thereafter, successive generations of American schoolchildren used these readers to acquire basic literacy skills and to imbibe the moral lessons they taught.

Religion was the central component of William H. McGuffey's life. He was not only an educator, but also an ordained Presbyterian minister in whose mind education and religion were never separate. He believed that the chief end of education was the inculcation of a Christian character and pious life in the recipient.
The world depicted in the 1836/37 version of the Readers - the only version which McGuffey himself was fully responsible for - was a God-centered world wherein man's chief end is to gain salvation. The God of these Readers is omnipotent, omnipresent[4], and omniscient[5]. He is not only the creator[6], but also the sustainer and governor of the world.
According to the picture presented in this version of the Readers, man's life and even his thoughts should be directed with constant attention on the life in the world to come. It is in preparation for this next life that he has been put here on the earth as a type of testing ground.

McGuffey Readers - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

The earliest school children were raised on Christian doctrine.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"Yes, this was a Christian nation BUT not a Christian government."

I can almost agree with that, but I would prefer the term "nation of Christians".

The intent of the Founders was to keep government out of religion and organized religion out of government.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Barton destroyed as an "historian" (The Jefferson Lies)

The second great awakening foundered when Protestants killed state funding of schools so the Catholics could not get money for their schools

All of the wars of the last 150 years that led the citizenry to respond by slowinly unhinging religious influence from government government policy

All of it is clear: we are a nation of Christians, with a secular government

 

[Howey]

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

Using red color (and you should post with gargantuan fonts), does add melodrama but it doesn't prop-up your failed argument.

Why did you purposefully misrepresent that congress had bibles printed?

Further, you never did address what schools tactually received those bibles. Is that yet another claim to wish to retract?

May I suggest you try out for the U.S. Olympic swim team - the backstroke.

1) If you can't see the bright red font that clearly states that Congress sponsored the printing of the Bible then you are blind. You clearly didn't read the statements directly written and produced by the Library of Congress. That is called intellectual cowardice.

2)
The First American Bible

3) Have you ever heard of the McGuffey Readers? They were a textbooks widely used in America's schools during the early part of her history.

McGuffey Readers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a little information concerning the McGuffey Reader:

Religion was the central component of William H. McGuffey's life. He was not only an educator, but also an ordained Presbyterian minister in whose mind education and religion were never separate. He believed that the chief end of education was the inculcation of a Christian character and pious life in the recipient.
The world depicted in the 1836/37 version of the Readers - the only version which McGuffey himself was fully responsible for - was a God-centered world wherein man's chief end is to gain salvation. The God of these Readers is omnipotent, omnipresent[4], and omniscient[5]. He is not only the creator[6], but also the sustainer and governor of the world.
According to the picture presented in this version of the Readers, man's life and even his thoughts should be directed with constant attention on the life in the world to come. It is in preparation for this next life that he has been put here on the earth as a type of testing ground.

McGuffey Readers - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

The earliest school children were raised on Christian doctrine.

Before you criticize the source, follow the links. Barton is a sideshow hustler.

The Right's Favorite Historian Comes Apart at the Seams | Mother Jones

 

[DriftingSand]

Congress has the first Bible printed for the inhabitants of the USA and to be used in our schools.

Watch from :42 - 1:26. Then prove Barton wrong:

U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton.flv - YouTube

Ah. A goofy youtube video to prop up your failed argument.

Your pal Barton isn't here to defend his comment. You are.

What schools actually received the bibles you falsely portrayed as being printed by congress.

America's schools. From PBS:

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]The religious and moral education of youth was paramount in early American schools. The first book in the classroom was the Bible. It was central to a child’s education, not only for its content, but the way it was used to build skills. Students learned how to read using the Bible. Much of the school day was devoted to memorizing and reciting passages from it, and passages were copied to learn penmanship. [/FONT]

SCHOOL: The Story of American Public Education

Ever hear of the New England Primer? It was one of America's school books in the early days.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54dMwRFY0DI]NewEnglandPrimer - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsJidfrzjhE]Book Review: The New England Primer - YouTube[/ame]

Did you know that America's early Universities were founded by Christian theologians?

Bill Maher, of Politically Incorrect, said,"America has never been a Christian Nation". However, as we read about the founding of our universities and the first textbooks that were used in this country, we can not dispute our Christian foundation.
106 of the first 108 colleges were started on the Christian faith. By the close of 1860 there were 246 colleges in America. Seventeen of these were state institutions; almost every other one was founded by Christian denominations or by individuals who avowed a religious purpose.

Harvard College, 1636 - An Original Rule of Harvard College: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life, (John 17:3), and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning."

Yale University, 1701 - Yale University was started by Congregational ministers in 1701,"for the liberal and religious education of suitable youth…to propagate in this wilderness, the blessed reformed Protestant religion…"

Princeton, 1746 - Associated with the Great Awakening, Princeton was founded by the Presbyterians in 1746. Rev. Jonathan Dickinson became its first president, declaring, "cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

History of America's Education #3 Universities, Textbooks and Our Founders

Yup!!! America was founded by Christians and it was reflected in the Classroom.

 

[DriftingSand]

Notice how the liberal left completely abandons the actual facts and begins to attack the man. Also notice that I've posted links to other sources (other than Barton) that have gone completely unnoticed or glossed over. The level of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice by the likes of the "usual suspects" is disgusting (but not in the least surprising). For you true students of history and seekers of truth I suggest you look closely at the material that I and several others have presented here. There is NO DOUBT that America was founded by Christians; that the earliest English Bible to be published in the USA was sponsored by an early Congress; and that the Bible and other Christian books were used in America's public schools and Universities.

Only a close-minded dunce could argue otherwise.

 

[DriftingSand]

When it comes to Franklin, whether he was a Quaker or Puritan, we can agree he was a christian in the general sense of the word.


I think the most radical founding father when it came to thoughts of god and faith was probably Thomas Paine.

I seriously doubt he was an atheist. Are these public school teaching Paine is an atheist? If they are not, who are the public schools accusing is an atheist?

Of all the founders, I think Paine was the only one who was possibly Deist, and Deism, of course, includes a belief in God.

I am not aware that Thomas Paine was a founding father, he was not a representative of any state, did not attend the Continental Congress, spent but a brief time in America.

Influential yes, a Founding Father no.

In a minor sense he is. He was no more than a pamphleteer and writer who inspired the Patriots in revolution, but that was enough to regard him among our revolutionary figures.

Paine was one of many influential men during that period; a believer in God; and likely the only true Deist of the bunch (or one of very few). I doubt that he frothed at the mouth at the mention of the word "Jesus" like many modern fools do.

 

[Hollie]

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

Using red color (and you should post with gargantuan fonts), does add melodrama but it doesn't prop-up your failed argument.

Why did you purposefully misrepresent that congress had bibles printed?

Further, you never did address what schools tactually received those bibles. Is that yet another claim to wish to retract?

May I suggest you try out for the U.S. Olympic swim team - the backstroke.

1) If you can't see the bright red font that clearly states that Congress sponsored the printing of the Bible then you are blind. You clearly didn't read the statements directly written and produced by the Library of Congress. That is called intellectual cowardice.

2)
The First American Bible

3) Have you ever heard of the McGuffey Readers? They were a textbooks widely used in America's schools during the early part of her history.

McGuffey Readers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a little information concerning the McGuffey Reader:

Religion was the central component of William H. McGuffey's life. He was not only an educator, but also an ordained Presbyterian minister in whose mind education and religion were never separate. He believed that the chief end of education was the inculcation of a Christian character and pious life in the recipient.
The world depicted in the 1836/37 version of the Readers - the only version which McGuffey himself was fully responsible for - was a God-centered world wherein man's chief end is to gain salvation. The God of these Readers is omnipotent, omnipresent[4], and omniscient[5]. He is not only the creator[6], but also the sustainer and governor of the world.
According to the picture presented in this version of the Readers, man's life and even his thoughts should be directed with constant attention on the life in the world to come. It is in preparation for this next life that he has been put here on the earth as a type of testing ground.

McGuffey Readers - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

The earliest school children were raised on Christian doctrine.

I see that you have abandoned as false and indefensible, both your earlier claims that
1) congress had bibles printed and that,
2) those bibles were delivered to public schools.

Progress.

Thou shall not lie.

Thou shall not get liquored-up before noon .

 

[DriftingSand]

Using red color (and you should post with gargantuan fonts), does add melodrama but it doesn't prop-up your failed argument.

Why did you purposefully misrepresent that congress had bibles printed?

Further, you never did address what schools tactually received those bibles. Is that yet another claim to wish to retract?

May I suggest you try out for the U.S. Olympic swim team - the backstroke.

1) If you can't see the bright red font that clearly states that Congress sponsored the printing of the Bible then you are blind. You clearly didn't read the statements directly written and produced by the Library of Congress. That is called intellectual cowardice.

2)
The First American Bible

3) Have you ever heard of the McGuffey Readers? They were a textbooks widely used in America's schools during the early part of her history.

McGuffey Readers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a little information concerning the McGuffey Reader:

McGuffey Readers - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

The earliest school children were raised on Christian doctrine.

I see that you have abandoned as false and indefensible, both your earlier claims that
1) congress had bibles printed and that,
2) those bibles were delivered to public schools.

Progress.

Thou shall not lie.

Thou shall not get liquored-up before noon .

Another deflection and sidestep. The debate goes to DriftingSand. Next >>

 

[thebrucebeat]

Notice how the liberal left completely abandons the actual facts and begins to attack the man. Also notice that I've posted links to other sources (other than Barton) that have gone completely unnoticed or glossed over. The level of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice by the likes of the "usual suspects" is disgusting (but not in the least surprising). For you true students of history and seekers of truth I suggest you look closely at the material that I and several others have presented here. There is NO DOUBT that America was founded by Christians; that the earliest English Bible to be published in the USA was sponsored by an early Congress; and that the Bible and other Christian books were used in America's public schools and Universities.

Only a close-minded dunce could argue otherwise.

No "true students of history and seekers of truth" would ever name Barton as a source, not because of the man but because his writings have been blown up by actual scholars who have shown him to be academically uncredible. Your idea that Congress sponsored the bible is one of the lies that blew up in Barton's face, and you have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
Nor would anyone seriously committed to history be citing blogposts from unheard of essayists preying on the gullible looking for support of the unsupportable.
You have made yourself look so tainted in this thread that your credibility will always be questioned now. You clearly don't have any idea how to discern good information from bad, other than by defining that by what supports your previous beliefs and what doesn't.

 

[DriftingSand]

Notice how the liberal left completely abandons the actual facts and begins to attack the man. Also notice that I've posted links to other sources (other than Barton) that have gone completely unnoticed or glossed over. The level of intellectual dishonesty and cowardice by the likes of the "usual suspects" is disgusting (but not in the least surprising). For you true students of history and seekers of truth I suggest you look closely at the material that I and several others have presented here. There is NO DOUBT that America was founded by Christians; that the earliest English Bible to be published in the USA was sponsored by an early Congress; and that the Bible and other Christian books were used in America's public schools and Universities.

Only a close-minded dunce could argue otherwise.

No "true students of history and seekers of truth" would ever name Barton as a source, not because of the man but because his writings have been blown up by actual scholars who have shown him to be academically uncredible. Your idea that Congress sponsored the bible is one of the lies that blew up in Barton's face, and you have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
Nor would anyone seriously committed to history be citing blogposts from unheard of essayists preying on the gullible looking for support of the unsupportable.
You have made yourself look so tainted in this thread that your credibility will always be questioned now. You clearly don't have any idea how to discern good information from bad, other than by defining that by what supports your previous beliefs and what doesn't.

I had thought that if any of the "usual suspects" would approach a level of honestly it would be you. Sorry for assuming.

I got the information initially from Barton but then found that the Library Of Congress verified it. Did you not look at the link that take you to the LOC site? Are you purposely skimming over the information out of fear? Have you no intellectual pride or desire to learn beyond what your handlers have programmed you to think? Come on man ... step up to the plate.

 

[thebrucebeat]

1) If you can't see the bright red font that clearly states that Congress sponsored the printing of the Bible then you are blind. You clearly didn't read the statements directly written and produced by the Library of Congress. That is called intellectual cowardice.

2)
The First American Bible

3) Have you ever heard of the McGuffey Readers? They were a textbooks widely used in America's schools during the early part of her history.

McGuffey Readers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a little information concerning the McGuffey Reader:

McGuffey Readers - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

The earliest school children were raised on Christian doctrine.

I see that you have abandoned as false and indefensible, both your earlier claims that
1) congress had bibles printed and that,
2) those bibles were delivered to public schools.

Progress.

Thou shall not lie.

Thou shall not get liquored-up before noon .

Another deflection and sidestep. The debate goes to DriftingSand. Next >>

The sidestep was yours.
When you realized the evidence for your silly notion about Congress sponsoring bibles was blowing up in your face you decided to drop that line and go in a different direction.
It's typical.
When humiliated people rarely like to admit it. They ignore, or they dig in their heels. You ignored and moved to something else.
This has been an extraordinarily bad day for you.

 

[Hollie]

1) If you can't see the bright red font that clearly states that Congress sponsored the printing of the Bible then you are blind. You clearly didn't read the statements directly written and produced by the Library of Congress. That is called intellectual cowardice.

2)
The First American Bible

3) Have you ever heard of the McGuffey Readers? They were a textbooks widely used in America's schools during the early part of her history.

McGuffey Readers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a little information concerning the McGuffey Reader:

McGuffey Readers - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

The earliest school children were raised on Christian doctrine.

I see that you have abandoned as false and indefensible, both your earlier claims that
1) congress had bibles printed and that,
2) those bibles were delivered to public schools.

Progress.

Thou shall not lie.

Thou shall not get liquored-up before noon .

Another deflection and sidestep. The debate goes to DriftingSand. Next >>

What deflection and sidestep? It's true that you have abandoned as indefensible your earlier clams that congress had bibles printed and that those bibles were delivered to public schools.

Unfortunately, you chose to use a source who is a hack and a charlatan, (Barton), and who has been thoroughly discredited.

If you see the above as some kind of victory, have at it, it's your delusion.

 

[DriftingSand]

"Yes, this was a Christian nation BUT not a Christian government."

I can almost agree with that, but I would prefer the term "nation of Christians".

The intent of the Founders was to keep government out of religion and organized religion out of government.

We're almost in agreement. I fully agree that "organized religion" had not place in the government but that doesn't mean that the benevolent tenets of Christianity were to be abandoned by America's political leaders. Most had gone through the schools and Universities that taught from the Bible and other Christian texts and were deeply influenced by what they taught. But they all agreed that it would not be wise to literally force others to believe as they did in the same manner that King George had attempted others to conform to his beliefs.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Hollie and brucebeat have blocked DS's attempted side step, forced the issue back on the original source (Barton), which was destroyed early on, so DS is simply running around yelling 'no' 'no' 'no.'

Evangelical and fundamentalist Christtians are so very easy to defeat on this issue

Rationalist Christians, on the other hand, hold their own.