We Knew this was coming.

[SFC Ollie]

Just curious, but it sounds like no one here has ever called for a fire mission or needed artillery fire.

If they have ever needed artillery support, what were the two things they wanted most?

Coordinates is all I ever needed.

Communications.............

You can talk about us but you can't talk without us.........(One of my Platoon Motto's)

 

[MikeK]

Coordinates is all I ever needed.

Cool. I can get you a "round out" in a couple of days and within a mile of the target, give or take a coupla hhundred yards or so.

You are way more calm than those infantry oficers I would hear on the other end of life screaming over the airwaves "Get it on target and get it there now, FIRE FOR EFFECT".

Fire direction is a combat arms MOS. People keep talking about Nature or allude to it. Women are slightly better at math calculation than men.

I have called in dozens of Artillery strikes on Map Coordinates alone. In combat

With me sometimes a 100 meters from where they landed. Talk about 'pucker factor'. I usually asked for a smoke round first..... One with a different color than the other so I could adjust fire. We had two guns. Montagnards on both. Neither one was literate. Simple, "left, right, up, down" worked for me. "Drop 100, Up 100, east, west 100" etc works.

Sure, it's better to use 'mils' and all that other FO bullshit but not everybody operates that way. You're talking about a Unit whose feet are stuck in the sand.

We were a fast-moving, highly aggressive Unit that nobody knew where we were until we told them. Sometimes, even we didn't know where we were. Which was another good use for calling in Artillery using map coordinates.

"Hey Sam. Where da **** are we?"

"Beats me, we was running so fast, I have no idea where we are."

"Cool. I'll call in a locating round about 'here'.

And we'd shoot an azimuth off of that

And I (they) could put a round in your hip pocket from 6 or 7 miles away. In minutes.

I have also called in/worked with Spads (A-1 Skyraider) Super Sabres, Cobras, Puff the Magic Dragon (aka; Spooky) (I swear to God, those guys were drunk) and F4s, which suck. Really suck. And regular Huey Gunships.

The Air Force, it was harder to get their Freq. Fly Boys......

I tried to call in a strike from some 4th ID Artillery 175mm in Pleiku one time, and they were worse than ******* useless. We were out of range of our guys. Which happened a lot.

They had to make sure there were no Helicopters, Aircraft (ours, the Vietnamese and whoever else), Sea Gulls, etc in the air and by the time they checked all that bullshit, we were completely out of the area, running our asses off.

I'm sure that you guys knew/know what you were doing, but you weren't any good to us. At all.

When we needed Artillery, we needed it Right.*******.Now.

Oh, used to crack me up....... When the 4th ID sent out a Company sized unit, or even a Patrol, they'd turn the Artillery in the direction the Patrol was headed in.

I'm like, "Guys, why not just tell Charlie where you're going so he can have a nice ******* ambush waiting for you?"

I absolutely refused to work with regular units. Don't take this personal like or anything, but you guys were a bigger threat to American Troops than you were to the enemy half the time.

I'll settle for the old-fashioned 4 digit maps.

Worked every time. I have a HUGE amount of respect for cartographers. Good at what they do.

Whenever this topic comes to mind I wonder about the effect microcomputer development has on the fire direction aspect of contemporary field artillery. Because back in the 1950s those FDC (Fire Direction Center) officers made their computations with slide rules, tables books and note pads, and it always amazed me how they did it. They didn't even have calculators in those days. Those men were mathematicians who had to do a lot of very complex computing -- and they had to do it super-fast. And the slightest error could result in killing a lot of our own.

I'm sure computers have made an enormous difference in expediting a fire mission. In fact it occurs to me that the process could be almost totally automated by an F/O transmitting commands via iPod to a fully robotized field battery.

Mind boggling.

 

[dreolin]

Just curious, but it sounds like no one here has ever called for a fire mission or needed artillery fire.

If they have ever needed artillery support, what were the two things they wanted most?

I've never called in a fire mission -- mainly because I was never in combat. But I was an Engineer (bulldozer operator) assigned to artillery batteries (105mm howitzers). I am very well acquainted with every aspect of putting those guns in service in the field and I can tell you it takes a lot of muscle, not only to dig pits and seat the guns but to hump ammo -- and do it all fast.

I can tell you for sure that except for the extreme exception, artillery is not a practical MOS for women.

True.....

You guys hardly ever take showers

I'll try to respect your guys service and I would appreciate the same.

I don't think either one of you know what it takes to get a round out there fast and on target and I was in a FDC where I had to sometimes calculate data for three gun batteries at once because we didn't have anyone else to do the job. Having capable women in those positions would have saved lives.

Have either one of you been in an FDC in your lives?

We can talk about FOs later if you want, but it ain't pretty, and again, women in those positions would have saveed lives.

 

[MikeK]

I've never called in a fire mission -- mainly because I was never in combat. But I was an Engineer (bulldozer operator) assigned to artillery batteries (105mm howitzers). I am very well acquainted with every aspect of putting those guns in service in the field and I can tell you it takes a lot of muscle, not only to dig pits and seat the guns but to hump ammo -- and do it all fast.

I can tell you for sure that except for the extreme exception, artillery is not a practical MOS for women.

True.....

You guys hardly ever take showers

I'll try to respect your guys service and I would appreciate the same.

I don't think either one of you know what it takes to get a round out there fast and on target and I was in a FDC where I had to sometimes calculate data for three gun batteries at once because we didn't have anyone else to do the job. Having capable women in those positions would have saved lives.

Have either one of you been in an FDC in your lives?

We can talk about FOs later if you want, but it ain't pretty, and again, women in those positions would have saveed lives.

In my time, (and in the Marine Corps) FDC personnel were commissioned officers. I was enlisted.

As for women in combat zones -- I am completely opposed to that idea except as a very last resort. As long as an able-bodied man is available, the front lines are no place for any woman. And I'm not interested in any opposing argument.

 

[dreolin]

Cool. I can get you a "round out" in a couple of days and within a mile of the target, give or take a coupla hhundred yards or so.

You are way more calm than those infantry oficers I would hear on the other end of life screaming over the airwaves "Get it on target and get it there now, FIRE FOR EFFECT".

Fire direction is a combat arms MOS. People keep talking about Nature or allude to it. Women are slightly better at math calculation than men.

I have called in dozens of Artillery strikes on Map Coordinates alone. In combat

With me sometimes a 100 meters from where they landed. Talk about 'pucker factor'. I usually asked for a smoke round first..... One with a different color than the other so I could adjust fire. We had two guns. Montagnards on both. Neither one was literate. Simple, "left, right, up, down" worked for me. "Drop 100, Up 100, east, west 100" etc works.

Sure, it's better to use 'mils' and all that other FO bullshit but not everybody operates that way. You're talking about a Unit whose feet are stuck in the sand.

We were a fast-moving, highly aggressive Unit that nobody knew where we were until we told them. Sometimes, even we didn't know where we were. Which was another good use for calling in Artillery using map coordinates.

"Hey Sam. Where da **** are we?"

"Beats me, we was running so fast, I have no idea where we are."

"Cool. I'll call in a locating round about 'here'.

And we'd shoot an azimuth off of that

And I (they) could put a round in your hip pocket from 6 or 7 miles away. In minutes.

I have also called in/worked with Spads (A-1 Skyraider) Super Sabres, Cobras, Puff the Magic Dragon (aka; Spooky) (I swear to God, those guys were drunk) and F4s, which suck. Really suck. And regular Huey Gunships.

The Air Force, it was harder to get their Freq. Fly Boys......

I tried to call in a strike from some 4th ID Artillery 175mm in Pleiku one time, and they were worse than ******* useless. We were out of range of our guys. Which happened a lot.

They had to make sure there were no Helicopters, Aircraft (ours, the Vietnamese and whoever else), Sea Gulls, etc in the air and by the time they checked all that bullshit, we were completely out of the area, running our asses off.

I'm sure that you guys knew/know what you were doing, but you weren't any good to us. At all.

When we needed Artillery, we needed it Right.*******.Now.

Oh, used to crack me up....... When the 4th ID sent out a Company sized unit, or even a Patrol, they'd turn the Artillery in the direction the Patrol was headed in.

I'm like, "Guys, why not just tell Charlie where you're going so he can have a nice ******* ambush waiting for you?"

I absolutely refused to work with regular units. Don't take this personal like or anything, but you guys were a bigger threat to American Troops than you were to the enemy half the time.

I'll settle for the old-fashioned 4 digit maps.

Worked every time. I have a HUGE amount of respect for cartographers. Good at what they do.

Whenever this topic comes to mind I wonder about the effect microcomputer development has on the fire direction aspect of contemporary field artillery. Because back in the 1950s those FDC (Fire Direction Center) officers made their computations with slide rules, tables books and note pads, and it always amazed me how they did it. They didn't even have calculators in those days. Those men were mathematicians who had to do a lot of very complex computing -- and they had to do it super-fast. And the slightest error could result in killing a lot of our own.

I'm sure computers have made an enormous difference in expediting a fire mission. In fact it occurs to me that the process could be almost totally automated by an F/O transmitting commands via iPod to a fully robotized field battery.

Mind boggling.

We computed entirely manually in vietnam as FADAC was useless. And I am sure it is entirely computerized now, but we are talking about women in combat from our own experience.

Bloodrock walked into his first unit with his CO swearing about 8 or 9 pregnant women. I walked in to my first unit and I was expected to do the job of a dozen men because they couldn't find people to work those slide rules. Even the officers couldn't do it but one, and my first sergeant. There were women, I am sure, who could have filled those positions and would have saved lives, but they were prohibited from serving combat MOSes and in line units.

As for Edgetho...he wants his rounds fast and on target and those were the two things I was talking about...and the 175s were pieces of garbage, but the marines liked them.

 

[dreolin]

True.....

You guys hardly ever take showers

I'll try to respect your guys service and I would appreciate the same.

I don't think either one of you know what it takes to get a round out there fast and on target and I was in a FDC where I had to sometimes calculate data for three gun batteries at once because we didn't have anyone else to do the job. Having capable women in those positions would have saved lives.

Have either one of you been in an FDC in your lives?

We can talk about FOs later if you want, but it ain't pretty, and again, women in those positions would have saveed lives.

In my time, (and in the Marine Corps) FDC personnel were commissioned officers. I was enlisted.

As for women in combat zones -- I am completely opposed to that idea except as a very last resort. As long as an able-bodied man is available, the front lines are no place for any woman. And I'm not interested in any opposing argument.

That changed (officer only computers) during Vietnam because not many officers could do it and they didn't want to promote grunts like me, thank God, to command positions.

We could have drawn from a wealth of women and picked some. Does it really bother you guys so much to have your life saved by a woman?

Bottom line too. It's going to happen by 2016. That is a mission and supported by the JCS. In my opinion, good troops would and will do everything possible to support and help those women as they would any other new troops, despite in some cases negative personal opinions. Bad troops will, as always, grouse and complain and throw impediments in the pathway to accomplish that mission.

A stagnant Army is a dead Army. Women will do fine.

 

[SFC Ollie]

They need to stop destroying our military with their stupid Social Engineering..........

 

[patrickcaturday]

Coordinates is all I ever needed.

Cool. I can get you a "round out" in a couple of days and within a mile of the target, give or take a coupla hhundred yards or so.

You are way more calm than those infantry oficers I would hear on the other end of life screaming over the airwaves "Get it on target and get it there now, FIRE FOR EFFECT".

Fire direction is a combat arms MOS. People keep talking about Nature or allude to it. Women are slightly better at math calculation than men.

I have called in dozens of Artillery strikes on Map Coordinates alone. In combat

With me sometimes a 100 meters from where they landed. Talk about 'pucker factor'. I usually asked for a smoke round first..... One with a different color than the other so I could adjust fire. We had two guns. Montagnards on both. Neither one was literate. Simple, "left, right, up, down" worked for me. "Drop 100, Up 100, east, west 100" etc works.

Sure, it's better to use 'mils' and all that other FO bullshit but not everybody operates that way. You're talking about a Unit whose feet are stuck in the sand.

We were a fast-moving, highly aggressive Unit that nobody knew where we were until we told them. Sometimes, even we didn't know where we were. Which was another good use for calling in Artillery using map coordinates.

"Hey Sam. Where da **** are we?"

"Beats me, we was running so fast, I have no idea where we are."

"Cool. I'll call in a locating round about 'here'.

And we'd shoot an azimuth off of that

And I (they) could put a round in your hip pocket from 6 or 7 miles away. In minutes.

I have also called in/worked with Spads (A-1 Skyraider) Super Sabres, Cobras, Puff the Magic Dragon (aka; Spooky) (I swear to God, those guys were drunk) and F4s, which suck. Really suck. And regular Huey Gunships.

The Air Force, it was harder to get their Freq. Fly Boys......

I tried to call in a strike from some 4th ID Artillery 175mm in Pleiku one time, and they were worse than ******* useless. We were out of range of our guys. Which happened a lot.

They had to make sure there were no Helicopters, Aircraft (ours, the Vietnamese and whoever else), Sea Gulls, etc in the air and by the time they checked all that bullshit, we were completely out of the area, running our asses off.

I'm sure that you guys knew/know what you were doing, but you weren't any good to us. At all.

When we needed Artillery, we needed it Right.*******.Now.

Oh, used to crack me up....... When the 4th ID sent out a Company sized unit, or even a Patrol, they'd turn the Artillery in the direction the Patrol was headed in.

I'm like, "Guys, why not just tell Charlie where you're going so he can have a nice ******* ambush waiting for you?"

I absolutely refused to work with regular units. Don't take this personal like or anything, but you guys were a bigger threat to American Troops than you were to the enemy half the time.

I'll settle for the old-fashioned 4 digit maps.

Worked every time. I have a HUGE amount of respect for cartographers. Good at what they do.

You know I was never in the military but I do know something about what you guys are talking about. Edgetho, I got to call it the way I see it , I took a map reading course in ROTC and if that was really the way that you called in artillery support then it is no wonder you don't like the artillery. For one thing I think your instructions are not standard. I also know that most vets don't talk as easily as you seem to about their war experiences. Sorry just the way I see it !!!

 

[dreolin]

Coordinates is all I ever needed.

Cool. I can get you a "round out" in a couple of days and within a mile of the target, give or take a coupla hhundred yards or so.

You are way more calm than those infantry oficers I would hear on the other end of life screaming over the airwaves "Get it on target and get it there now, FIRE FOR EFFECT".

Fire direction is a combat arms MOS. People keep talking about Nature or allude to it. Women are slightly better at math calculation than men.

I have called in dozens of Artillery strikes on Map Coordinates alone. In combat

With me sometimes a 100 meters from where they landed. Talk about 'pucker factor'. I usually asked for a smoke round first..... One with a different color than the other so I could adjust fire. We had two guns. Montagnards on both. Neither one was literate. Simple, "left, right, up, down" worked for me. "Drop 100, Up 100, east, west 100" etc works.

Sure, it's better to use 'mils' and all that other FO bullshit but not everybody operates that way. You're talking about a Unit whose feet are stuck in the sand.

We were a fast-moving, highly aggressive Unit that nobody knew where we were until we told them. Sometimes, even we didn't know where we were. Which was another good use for calling in Artillery using map coordinates.

"Hey Sam. Where da **** are we?"

"Beats me, we was running so fast, I have no idea where we are."

"Cool. I'll call in a locating round about 'here'.

And we'd shoot an azimuth off of that

And I (they) could put a round in your hip pocket from 6 or 7 miles away. In minutes.

I have also called in/worked with Spads (A-1 Skyraider) Super Sabres, Cobras, Puff the Magic Dragon (aka; Spooky) (I swear to God, those guys were drunk) and F4s, which suck. Really suck. And regular Huey Gunships.

The Air Force, it was harder to get their Freq. Fly Boys......

I tried to call in a strike from some 4th ID Artillery 175mm in Pleiku one time, and they were worse than ******* useless. We were out of range of our guys. Which happened a lot.

They had to make sure there were no Helicopters, Aircraft (ours, the Vietnamese and whoever else), Sea Gulls, etc in the air and by the time they checked all that bullshit, we were completely out of the area, running our asses off.

I'm sure that you guys knew/know what you were doing, but you weren't any good to us. At all.

When we needed Artillery, we needed it Right.*******.Now.

Oh, used to crack me up....... When the 4th ID sent out a Company sized unit, or even a Patrol, they'd turn the Artillery in the direction the Patrol was headed in.

I'm like, "Guys, why not just tell Charlie where you're going so he can have a nice ******* ambush waiting for you?"

I absolutely refused to work with regular units. Don't take this personal like or anything, but you guys were a bigger threat to American Troops than you were to the enemy half the time.

I'll settle for the old-fashioned 4 digit maps.

Worked every time. I have a HUGE amount of respect for cartographers. Good at what they do.

Don't take this personal like or anything but get bent. Maybe if you weren't so busy running around like some John Wayne or Audie Murphy and actually knew how to call in a fire mission, we coulda got you what you needed. Ya gotta keep calm out there, boy, and stop pissin' your pants.

Oh, and again, "Don't take this personal like or anything"...

 

[dreolin]

They need to stop destroying our military with their stupid Social Engineering..........

Things change, Sarge.

Support our troops, OK?

And some of those troops are women, and those dreaded negro fellahs nowadays, brought to you by this "stupid Social Engineering".

 

[SFC Ollie]

They need to stop destroying our military with their stupid Social Engineering..........

Things change, Sarge.

Support our troops, OK?

And some of those troops are women, and those dreaded negro fellahs nowadays, brought to you by this "stupid Social Engineering".

You did not just tell me to support our troops? I know I am miss reading that...

And I know you are not comparing women to Blacks.....I know that for certain...

You can't be that far out of reality..........

Yes the addition to open gays in the military and Women in combat roles is social engineering. And yes i stand against them both and base it on my own 22 years on active duty.
Don't know or care what your experiences are but I haven't quit yet. I'm currently the Commander of my local American Legion and just turned down The County Commander position....

Now you want to try again?

 

[dreolin]

I have called in dozens of Artillery strikes on Map Coordinates alone. In combat

With me sometimes a 100 meters from where they landed. Talk about 'pucker factor'. I usually asked for a smoke round first..... One with a different color than the other so I could adjust fire. We had two guns. Montagnards on both. Neither one was literate. Simple, "left, right, up, down" worked for me. "Drop 100, Up 100, east, west 100" etc works.

Sure, it's better to use 'mils' and all that other FO bullshit but not everybody operates that way. You're talking about a Unit whose feet are stuck in the sand.

We were a fast-moving, highly aggressive Unit that nobody knew where we were until we told them. Sometimes, even we didn't know where we were. Which was another good use for calling in Artillery using map coordinates.

"Hey Sam. Where da **** are we?"

"Beats me, we was running so fast, I have no idea where we are."

"Cool. I'll call in a locating round about 'here'.

And we'd shoot an azimuth off of that

And I (they) could put a round in your hip pocket from 6 or 7 miles away. In minutes.

I have also called in/worked with Spads (A-1 Skyraider) Super Sabres, Cobras, Puff the Magic Dragon (aka; Spooky) (I swear to God, those guys were drunk) and F4s, which suck. Really suck. And regular Huey Gunships.

The Air Force, it was harder to get their Freq. Fly Boys......

I tried to call in a strike from some 4th ID Artillery 175mm in Pleiku one time, and they were worse than ******* useless. We were out of range of our guys. Which happened a lot.

They had to make sure there were no Helicopters, Aircraft (ours, the Vietnamese and whoever else), Sea Gulls, etc in the air and by the time they checked all that bullshit, we were completely out of the area, running our asses off.

I'm sure that you guys knew/know what you were doing, but you weren't any good to us. At all.

When we needed Artillery, we needed it Right.*******.Now.

Oh, used to crack me up....... When the 4th ID sent out a Company sized unit, or even a Patrol, they'd turn the Artillery in the direction the Patrol was headed in.

I'm like, "Guys, why not just tell Charlie where you're going so he can have a nice ******* ambush waiting for you?"

I absolutely refused to work with regular units. Don't take this personal like or anything, but you guys were a bigger threat to American Troops than you were to the enemy half the time.

I'll settle for the old-fashioned 4 digit maps.

Worked every time. I have a HUGE amount of respect for cartographers. Good at what they do.

You know I was never in the military but I do know something about what you guys are talking about. Edgetho, I got to call it the way I see it , I took a map reading course in ROTC and if that was really the way that you called in artillery support then it is no wonder you don't like the artillery. For one thing I think your instructions are not standard. I also know that most vets don't talk as easily as you seem to about their war experiences. Sorry just the way I see it !!!

Thanks. People like this guy are the ones who get people killed...the gung ho mothers who have no respect and refused to work with regular units. I'd have to go out and baby sit them sometimes if the CO thought there might be a need for artillery.

I cannot believe this guy just said something like that. I try to respect people in their jobs but when they say things like this fool just said, I just gotta shake my head.

 

[Gracie]

True.....

You guys hardly ever take showers

I'll try to respect your guys service and I would appreciate the same.

I don't think either one of you know what it takes to get a round out there fast and on target and I was in a FDC where I had to sometimes calculate data for three gun batteries at once because we didn't have anyone else to do the job. Having capable women in those positions would have saved lives.

Have either one of you been in an FDC in your lives?

We can talk about FOs later if you want, but it ain't pretty, and again, women in those positions would have saveed lives.

In my time, (and in the Marine Corps) FDC personnel were commissioned officers. I was enlisted.

As for women in combat zones -- I am completely opposed to that idea except as a very last resort. As long as an able-bodied man is available, the front lines are no place for any woman. And I'm not interested in any opposing argument.

For a long time, I have said women should be allowed in combat zones...but...if those women can't even do THREE PULLUPS...then maybe I have been wrong. How are they going to pull one of their own, if that person gets hit and needs to be removed to a safer spot? They can't. So women in combat zones are fine..if they are not on the front lines. Maybe on radio, maybe doing medical aid, maybe mechanical things since their hands are smaller and can fit in tighter spots in engines, etc. Even firing weapons. But out there, in the midst of it all? Not so sure now. Especially since I just read that 45% of the women wanting to be in combat couldn't even do three pullups. Hell, I could do that at forty when my hands were still functioning. Not so much now. But those women that join the service..they are young. NOT EVEN THREE???

 

[Kondor3]

"...But out there, in the midst of it all? Not so sure now..."

Diogenes, put down your lamp.

You've found an honest woman.

One who follows her common sense and not the hyper-egalitarian PC herd.

Regardless of which side of this debate you eventually end-up on, my respects for interjecting some honest and genuine doubt based upon common sense. Salude!

 

[dreolin]

They need to stop destroying our military with their stupid Social Engineering..........

Things change, Sarge.

Support our troops, OK?

And some of those troops are women, and those dreaded negro fellahs nowadays, brought to you by this "stupid Social Engineering".

You did not just tell me to support our troops? I know I am miss reading that...

And I know you are not comparing women to Blacks.....I know that for certain...

You can't be that far out of reality..........

Yes the addition to open gays in the military and Women in combat roles is social engineering. And yes i stand against them both and base it on my own 22 years on active duty.
Don't know or care what your experiences are but I haven't quit yet. I'm currently the Commander of my local American Legion and just turned down The County Commander position....

Now you want to try again?

And what I am saying is tthat women are going to be in combat MOSes by 2016 and if you support our troops and if you disagree, shut it because nothing you do is going to change it...and they are going to have it hard enough, if reading this board is any indication.

I brought up black soldiers because they were considered "social engineering" of the time that they were being integrated into all white units with similar comments.

 

[dreolin]

"...But out there, in the midst of it all? Not so sure now..."

Diogenes, put down your lamp.

You've found an honest woman.

One who follows her common sense and not the hyper-egalitarian PC herd.

Regardless of which side of this debate you eventually end-up on, my respects for interjecting some honest and genuine doubt based upon common sense. Salude!

You want honesty, here is some honesty.

Woman will bve serving in combat MOSes by 2016 as dictated by the JCS and they will do fine and conduct themselves with proficiency, honor and valor, and I will support that, as will any good troop despite their personal opinions, and you never will.

How is this, Gracie. Right beore I got out my Bn had to identify NATO vehicles from Warsaw pact vehicles for target acquisition. Only two out of the about 300 I was with could do so with any degree of accuracy. Women have a greater attention to that kind of detail. Maybe women FOs will prevent men the need for so many troops needing to be hauled out of fire.

 

[SFC Ollie]

And those of us with common ******* sense will not accept it.....

 

[dreolin]

I'll try to respect your guys service and I would appreciate the same.

I don't think either one of you know what it takes to get a round out there fast and on target and I was in a FDC where I had to sometimes calculate data for three gun batteries at once because we didn't have anyone else to do the job. Having capable women in those positions would have saved lives.

Have either one of you been in an FDC in your lives?

We can talk about FOs later if you want, but it ain't pretty, and again, women in those positions would have saveed lives.

In my time, (and in the Marine Corps) FDC personnel were commissioned officers. I was enlisted.

As for women in combat zones -- I am completely opposed to that idea except as a very last resort. As long as an able-bodied man is available, the front lines are no place for any woman. And I'm not interested in any opposing argument.

For a long time, I have said women should be allowed in combat zones...but...if those women can't even do THREE PULLUPS...then maybe I have been wrong. How are they going to pull one of their own, if that person gets hit and needs to be removed to a safer spot? They can't. So women in combat zones are fine..if they are not on the front lines. Maybe on radio, maybe doing medical aid, maybe mechanical things since their hands are smaller and can fit in tighter spots in engines, etc. Even firing weapons. But out there, in the midst of it all? Not so sure now. Especially since I just read that 45% of the women wanting to be in combat couldn't even do three pullups. Hell, I could do that at forty when my hands were still functioning. Not so much now. But those women that join the service..they are young. NOT EVEN THREE???

We had a gguy in my unit, he was huge,,,6'4 i think and 250 lbs. I he was hit, no one was carrying him out but me and my scrawny 1st sgt woulda gpt it done.

I don't know where you are getting this "3 pull ups" nonsense but I am not quite sure how it applies. The military will set standards and they will be complied with. Standards are always re-evaluated to meet the needs of an ever changing military.

I know when I was a troop, I wanted all the tools I could have at my disposal and it wouldn't matter to me if the troop helping was gay or a woman.

Also, Gracie, if you want to prohibit someone based on gender, it is really no difference than prohibitions based upon race.

Women can and will be serving in combat MOSes, and the military will be different, but better for it.

 

[dreolin]

And those of us with common ******* sense will not accept it.....

Were you really that kind of troop? I don't think so?

I may not have liked things but I accepted things and was dedicated to accomplishing the mission no matter what my personal opinion was...and the mission is to have women integrated to combat line units by 2016.

 

[Gracie]

Do I have to find the link just to make you understand where I got the 45%? I might..if I feel like it.

WOMEN WHO CANNOT PULL THEIR OWN WEIGHT UP 3 TIMES CANNOT PULL OR DRAG A FELLOW SOLDIER OUT OF HARMS WAY. PERIOD.
Women can do A LOT of things. The military WILL benefit from them, yes. But in the front lines where men are being shot down, MAJOR injuries who cannot walk themselves...a woman that can't do ONLY 3 PULLUPS will NOT be able to sling that guy over her shoulder and haul him out, OR pull him with just her arms and leg strength. No way, no how. They should not be in the midst of the fighting. They should be using their eyes and snipering the **** out of the enemy, with radios at hand, grenades, rocket launchers or whatever is at their disposal. Physically? NOT ON THE FRONT LINES.

Understand now? Or do I need to shout more?