Was Trump 'obligated' to pursue corruption in Ukraine?

[Syriusly]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

President Trump asked for a public declaration of an investigation into his political rival.

Certainly we can't prove that Trump's motivation was to help his political campaign- but there is no other explanation.

Certainly if the mayor of a small town asked his police chief to publicly announce that his political rival was being investigated for child abuse we would all agree that would sure seem suspicious.

But nothing Trump does will ever be suspicious- or even illegal- to the Trumpettes.

 

[9thIDdoc]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

It was worth $391 million to Zelensky. And those were taxpayer dollars Trump was using to extort his thing-not-of-value.

Is Zelensky being accused of a crime? Off topic and beside the point.

 

[joaquinmiller]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

It was worth $391 million to Zelensky. And those were taxpayer dollars Trump was using to extort his thing-not-of-value.

Is Zelensky being accused of a crime? Off topic and beside the point.

No, Zelensky was being asked to provide something of value.

 

[Faun]

LOLOL

You think free speech allows people to break the law? Take threatening a president's life, for example.... you think that's legal because it's protected by free speech??

And once again I ask specifically what law you think he broke.

Funny how you don't ask the President to say what law he thinks that Joe Biden broke.

What laws has Trump possibly/likely violated in this Ukrainian fiasco?
a)
Illegally soliciting campaign help from a foreign government
The most obvious way in which Trump could have violated the law is by soliciting material campaign aid from a foreign government, which expressly violates the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971.
b) Bribery- quid pro quo - military aid from the U.S. in exchange for a 'favor' personally benefiting Trump's political campaign.
c) Misappropriation of public funds
d) Conspiracy
e) Obstruction of Justice (for his actions trying to prevent the investigation)
f) Witness Intimidation
g) Violation of the Whistle Blower Act

Yeah? Bullspit!
If you allege a crime the burden of proof is on you.
Sorry, but you don't get to make up the law to suit yourself. The Federal Election Campaign as referenced by you makes no mention (expressly or otherwise) of any law against "soliciting material campaign aid" nor do you offer any reasonable evidence he did so in any case. The rest of your hilarious "points" are just an obvious case of throwing crap at the wall to see if any sticks. Also Biden is not, and probably never will be, a political rival. The President most likely considers him a campaign aid.

§30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals
(a) Prohibition
It shall be unlawful for-

(1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make-

(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;

(B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or

(C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or


(2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

(b) "Foreign national" defined
As used in this section, the term "foreign national" means-

(1) a foreign principal, as such term is defined by section 611(b) of title 22, except that the term "foreign national" shall not include any individual who is a citizen of the United States; or

(2) an individual who is not a citizen of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 1101(a)(22) of title 8) and who is not lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined by section 1101(a)(20) of title 8.

(Pub. L. 92–225, title III, §319, formerly §324, as added Pub. L. 94–283, title I, §112(2), May 11, 1976, 90 Stat. 493 ; renumbered §319, Pub. L. 96–187, title I, §105(5), Jan. 8, 1980, 93 Stat. 1354 ; amended Pub. L. 107–155, title III, §§303, 317, Mar. 27, 2002, 116 Stat. 96 , 109.)

[USC02] 52 USC 30121: Contributions and donations by foreign nationals

(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value,

Taking out an election rival is a thing of value. Zelensky holding investigations is providing a service which is a thing of value.

 

[Faun]

"If you allege a crime the burden of proof is on you."

What crime is being alleged? By whom? And in what court (no court; no burden of proof)?

"Trump has been campaigning against Joe Biden since Biden announced his candidacy."

In fact he is campaigning to become the Dem. candidate for President; not the office itself. Biden has not announced he will be an Independent or write in candidate nor has he qualified to be on the ballet.

"The crimes that Trump's own words suggest he committed include:"

Still untrue.

Biden is also campaigning for the 2020 election for president. I already posted that from his official campaign website. And of course, Biden need not win the Democrats' nomination to run in the general election. And again, Trump is already running campaign ads of his own against Biden.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"If you allege a crime the burden of proof is on you."

What crime is being alleged? By whom? And in what court (no court; no burden of proof)?

"Trump has been campaigning against Joe Biden since Biden announced his candidacy."

In fact he is campaigning to become the Dem. candidate for President; not the office itself. Biden has not announced he will be an Independent or write in candidate nor has he qualified to be on the ballet.

"The crimes that Trump's own words suggest he committed include:"

Still untrue.

And yet- Trump has still been campaigning against Biden since he announced. Trump considers him a political rival.

Really- how idiotic do you want to appear?

Your own Orange Messiah has repeatedly talked of Joe Biden as being his political rival- and you just keep going 'na ah!'

The President has his opinions (which he may not always correctly state) and I have mine. You have your own. Most people understand that opinions are a long way from being provable fact and courts are a bit picky about that.

 

[Faun]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

So it costs Zelensky no money at all to run an investigation??

 

[Godboy]

Trump claimed that he was obligated by the Constitution to talk to Ukraine about the Biden's and their supposed corruption.
"If you look and you read our Constitution and many other things, I have an obligation to look at corruption."
Is that true?

Where in the Constitution does it say that the President of the United States must 'look at corruption' in a foreign country?

You forgot to mention the part of the story that involves a sitting vice president of the United States.

 

[9thIDdoc]

What part of "untrue" do you folks not understand? If you remain determined in your delusional accusations feel to continue to try to try to prove the unprovable. I have repeatedly demonstrated the errors in your arguement.

 

[Syriusly]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

It was worth $391 million to Zelensky. And those were taxpayer dollars Trump was using to extort his thing-not-of-value.

Is Zelensky being accused of a crime? Off topic and beside the point.

What Trump was offering to Zelinsky was $391 million of badly needed military funding.
What Trump was asking for was a public announcement of an investigation that would harm his political rival- and that is a thing of value.

Give you an idea of how much Trump might think this was valued- Trump paid Stormy Daniels $130K to prevent her from publicly revealing Trump's adultery with her.

Getting Ukraine to publicly attack his political rival is worth at least that much.

 

[Syriusly]

What part of "untrue" do you folks not understand? If you remain determined in your delusional accusations feel to continue to try to try to prove the unprovable. I have repeatedly demonstrated the errors in your arguement.

We understand that you continually make untrue statements.

Just like your Orange Messiah.

 

[Syriusly]

"If you allege a crime the burden of proof is on you."

What crime is being alleged? By whom? And in what court (no court; no burden of proof)?

"Trump has been campaigning against Joe Biden since Biden announced his candidacy."

In fact he is campaigning to become the Dem. candidate for President; not the office itself. Biden has not announced he will be an Independent or write in candidate nor has he qualified to be on the ballet.

"The crimes that Trump's own words suggest he committed include:"

Still untrue.

And yet- Trump has still been campaigning against Biden since he announced. Trump considers him a political rival.

Really- how idiotic do you want to appear?

Your own Orange Messiah has repeatedly talked of Joe Biden as being his political rival- and you just keep going 'na ah!'

The President has his opinions (which he may not always correctly state) and I have mine. You have your own. Most people understand that opinions are a long way from being provable fact and courts are a bit picky about that.

LOL- you claim Biden is not Trump's political rival- even though your Orange Messiah claims he is.

Why do you think your opinion is more valid than Donald Trump's?

 

[xyz]

They shouldn't even call it quid pro quo because most people don't know Latin.

Call it blackmail. Trump wanted Ukraine to fabricate dirt on Biden to help his campaign. If not, he wouldn't give them weapons and Russia would be free to attack them.

Mafia tactics...

 

[9thIDdoc]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

It was worth $391 million to Zelensky. And those were taxpayer dollars Trump was using to extort his thing-not-of-value.

Is Zelensky being accused of a crime? Off topic and beside the point.

What Trump was offering to Zelinsky was $391 million of badly needed military funding.
What Trump was asking for was a public announcement of an investigation that would harm his political rival- and that is a thing of value.

Give you an idea of how much Trump might think this was valued- Trump paid Stormy Daniels $130K to prevent her from publicly revealing Trump's adultery with her.

Getting Ukraine to publicly attack his political rival is worth at least that much.

1# Crimes are proven by facts; not opinions. And certainly not by your opinion of anyone else's opinion.

2# Again, there is no law against asking for an investigation, if there were most of Congress would be in jail (where most belong anyway). That is especially true when it the President asking a foreign government to investigate possible foreign crime. Exactly what I would expect from an anti-crime President.

3# Nations use any leverage they like in dealing with other Nations. Always have; always will. Feel free to try to prove that the Presidents actions were for personal gain rather than for his Nation.

 

[9thIDdoc]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

It was worth $391 million to Zelensky. And those were taxpayer dollars Trump was using to extort his thing-not-of-value.

Is Zelensky being accused of a crime? Off topic and beside the point.

What Trump was offering to Zelinsky was $391 million of badly needed military funding.
What Trump was asking for was a public announcement of an investigation that would harm his political rival- and that is a thing of value.

Give you an idea of how much Trump might think this was valued- Trump paid Stormy Daniels $130K to prevent her from publicly revealing Trump's adultery with her.

Getting Ukraine to publicly attack his political rival is worth at least that much.

They shouldn't even call it quid pro quo because most people don't know Latin.

Call it blackmail. Trump wanted Ukraine to fabricate dirt on Biden to help his campaign. If not, he wouldn't give them weapons and Russia would be free to attack them.

Mafia tactics...

Nations use any leverage they like in dealing with other Nations. Always have; always will. Feel free to try to prove that the Presidents actions were for personal gain rather than for his Nation. How exactly did the President as anybody to "fabricate" anything?

 

[Syriusly]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

It was worth $391 million to Zelensky. And those were taxpayer dollars Trump was using to extort his thing-not-of-value.

Is Zelensky being accused of a crime? Off topic and beside the point.

What Trump was offering to Zelinsky was $391 million of badly needed military funding.
What Trump was asking for was a public announcement of an investigation that would harm his political rival- and that is a thing of value.

Give you an idea of how much Trump might think this was valued- Trump paid Stormy Daniels $130K to prevent her from publicly revealing Trump's adultery with her.

Getting Ukraine to publicly attack his political rival is worth at least that much.

They shouldn't even call it quid pro quo because most people don't know Latin.

Call it blackmail. Trump wanted Ukraine to fabricate dirt on Biden to help his campaign. If not, he wouldn't give them weapons and Russia would be free to attack them.

Mafia tactics...

Nations use any leverage they like in dealing with other Nations. Always have; always will. Feel free to try to prove that the Presidents actions were for personal gain rather than for his Nation. How exactly did the President as anybody to "fabricate" anything?

There is no 'gain' to the United States- for Ukraine to be forced to make a public declaration that it was investigating Trump's political opponent. There is no foreign policy gain- nothing.

The only one who benefits from this is President Trump- who attempted to secretly- using his office- manipulate the Ukraine to make a public declaration of an investigation.

Why did the President go to great lengths to make this pressure a secret?
Why did the President insist that the investigation be made public?

The same reason why a Mafioso would keep his bribery of a judge secret.

 

[Syriusly]

The President asked for an investigation and if he asked that it be made public there is no proof of his motivation or that it would be a "thing of value". Unprovable conjecture.

It was worth $391 million to Zelensky. And those were taxpayer dollars Trump was using to extort his thing-not-of-value.

Is Zelensky being accused of a crime? Off topic and beside the point.

What Trump was offering to Zelinsky was $391 million of badly needed military funding.
What Trump was asking for was a public announcement of an investigation that would harm his political rival- and that is a thing of value.

Give you an idea of how much Trump might think this was valued- Trump paid Stormy Daniels $130K to prevent her from publicly revealing Trump's adultery with her.

Getting Ukraine to publicly attack his political rival is worth at least that much.

1# Crimes are proven by facts; not opinions. And certainly not by your opinion of anyone else's opinion.

2# Again, there is no law against asking for an investigation, if there were most of Congress would be in jail (where most belong anyway). That is especially true when it the President asking a foreign government to investigate possible foreign crime. Exactly what I would expect from an anti-crime President.

3# Nations use any leverage they like in dealing with other Nations. Always have; always will. Feel free to try to prove that the Presidents actions were for personal gain rather than for his Nation.

1# Impeachment is not a criminal proceeding. In this investigation it is a fact that Bill Taylor, an expert in the Ukraine and a veteran diplomat has provided evidence of a quid pro quo done for the President's personal benefit. And before you say 'hearsay'- it is still evidence.
2# There is no law against one nation asking another nation for an investigation. There multiple laws against asking a foreign government to interfere in a U.S. election, and withholding American funds to pressure the foreign government to do so.
This 'anti-crime' President has only found two Americans worthy of pursuing- both named Biden. Note how Trump never asked- even while he was being investigated- for the assistance of Ukraine in the investigation of Paul Manafort. Not only that but Trump has repeatedly attempted to cut funds designated to fight corruption in foreign countries. The only thing 'anti-crime' about this President is his attempts to obstruct justice.
3# Nations do use leverage with other countries. When a U.S. President does it as part of American policy- such as President Obama having Joe Biden pressure Ukraine to fire a prosecutor who wasn't fighting corruption- that is legal. When a U.S. President does it for his own political gain, it is illegal and immoral. And seeing if there is more evidence that this was for the President's personal gain is what the impeachment process is doing.

Why did the President use his private attorney in this 'attempt to fight crime?
Why did the President so secretive about pressing Ukraine to announce an investigation into the Bidens?
Why did the President insist on a public declaration of the investigation by the President of Ukraine?
Why didn't the President provide any evidence of wrong doing to Ukraine?

Because it was all about smearing Joe Biden.

If it was above board- he would have had the FBI- or maybe the AG- contact Ukraine and provide what evidence the U.S. has to Ukraine suggest that they investigate.
If it was above board, they would want the investigation to be done confidentially.

But it was all about smearing Joe Biden.