Was Jefferson or Lincoln first Republican??

[Iceweasel]

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

Your inability to navigate what the word "Liberal" means is your problem, not mine. And the OP's as well -- he's even more clueless, trying to connect his Republican Party to a man who was already 28 years dead when it started.

I made no mention of contemporary Liberalism, nor what ignorant wags pervert it into. I referred to Jefferson an Madison --- who, with their cohorts, founded this country on the principles of Liberalism. PERIOD.

ERGO --- they would not have been starting a political party to undermine what they had just built. DUH.

Your inability to put anything in context is duly noted, as I explained. Your inability to grasp simple concepts is your problem, not mine. To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

 

[Pogo]

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

Your inability to navigate what the word "Liberal" means is your problem, not mine. And the OP's as well -- he's even more clueless, trying to connect his Republican Party to a man who was already 28 years dead when it started.

I made no mention of contemporary Liberalism, nor what ignorant wags pervert it into. I referred to Jefferson an Madison --- who, with their cohorts, founded this country on the principles of Liberalism. PERIOD.

ERGO --- they would not have been starting a political party to undermine what they had just built. DUH.

Your inability to put anything in context is duly noted, as I explained. Your inability to grasp simple concepts is your problem, not mine. To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

Again for you Illiterati --- I made no mention of contemporary Liberals. ***YOU*** did that.

 

[Divine Wind]

I say Jefferson since he [and Madison] founded the Republican party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stood for, while Lincoln founded another Republican that did not stand for freedom from big liberal govt, and so is more like the modern Democrat Party. This it seems to me makes Jefferson the first Republican.

Disagreed.

First, Jefferson was a renaissance man. A "liberal" in the best sense of the word as were several other Founders.

Second, "Republican" is a party. A republican is simply a person who believes in a republican form of government versus someone who believes a a pure democracy. Most "Republicans" are not republicans just as most "Democrats" are not believers in democracy.

 

[Iceweasel]

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

Your inability to navigate what the word "Liberal" means is your problem, not mine. And the OP's as well -- he's even more clueless, trying to connect his Republican Party to a man who was already 28 years dead when it started.

I made no mention of contemporary Liberalism, nor what ignorant wags pervert it into. I referred to Jefferson an Madison --- who, with their cohorts, founded this country on the principles of Liberalism. PERIOD.

ERGO --- they would not have been starting a political party to undermine what they had just built. DUH.

Your inability to put anything in context is duly noted, as I explained. Your inability to grasp simple concepts is your problem, not mine. To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

Again for you Illiterati --- I made no mention of contemporary Liberals. ***YOU*** did that.

...because, el tardo, YOU didn't.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

First, Jefferson was a renaissance man. A "liberal" in the best sense of the word as were several other Founders.

issue is not whether he was renaissance man or liberal but rather whether he was first Republican given that he and Madison founded the Republican Party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stand for.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Second, "Republican" is a party. .

this is not in dispute so we have no idea why you are talking about it???

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

wrong of course, political labels can change from decade to decade and thus we don't expect the reader to know what a label meant in say the 1870's. If we say today for example that Jefferson was an arch conservative we mean conservative by today's definition which would be the definition the reader is most like to know and deploy first. Since Jefferson was for small govt as are modern conservatives the meaning is made clear as simply as possible without the need for further complications.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

why did you fail to tell us what Jefferson did stand for and what modern Republicans stand for?

He did?

So modern Republicans stand for leaving the Country with massive debt?

Never knew that how Progressive of you!

The GOP came from the WHIG Political Party and today GOP are from the Know Nothing Political movement and are nothing like Jefferson even though you have latched onto the idea that Republican must have came from the Jefferson Republican party which mean you are confessing that you are a Democrat that love wasteful spending and leaving national debt for the future to pay for like Jefferson did!

I would expect you to be more of a Jackson type of guy, but it seem you are a true blue dog after all, right?

So modern Republicans stand for leaving the Country with massive debt?

Exactly the opposite as a matter of fact which is why Republicans have tried 30 times since Jeffersons first try to make debt illegall in America to too bad the liberals killed every amendment is that simple enough for you to understand?

And yet Jackson left the country debt free, and Jefferson did not!

So try again and Democrats back them were more conservative than the WHIGS of that day.

A debt-reduction policy that the Congress passed after the War of 1812 is what paid down the debt. Jackson the Populist just happened to be president when it was settled.

Jefferson actually reduced the size of the Executive Branch after the Federalists had taken liberties with it.

good points , and in any case a president is not the govt or electorate so the assumption that what happens is due to the president at the time is plain stupid!!


Thomas Jefferson:
13)That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
13)"The path we have to pursue[when Jefferson was President ] is so quiet that we have nothing scarcely to propose to our Legislature."

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

, trying to connect his Republican Party to a man who was already 28 years dead when it started.

if Jefferson was dead when the Republican party was founded what party did Jefferson and Madsion found in 1792 when they were alive??

 

[Divine Wind]

First, Jefferson was a renaissance man. A "liberal" in the best sense of the word as were several other Founders.

issue is not whether he was renaissance man or liberal but rather whether he was first Republican given that he and Madison founded the Republican Party in 1792 to stand for freedom from big liberal govt, exactly what modern Republicans stand for.

Disagreed since you are arguing pure semantics. For example, the "Republican Party" I joined in 1974 is not the same "Republican Party" we see today. I fully supported the ideals of Senator Barry "Mr. Conservative" Goldwater. I like Ronald Reagan a lot, but both would be considered "RINOs" by the standards of the assholes in charge of the "Republican Party" today.

Do you truly believe Thomas Jefferson would not be considered a ******* RINO by the standards of those who call themselves Republicans in 2017?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I referred to Jefferson an Madison --- who, with their cohorts, founded this country on the principles of Liberalism. PERIOD.

if by liberal you mean for tiny tiny govt then you are correct!!!!

Welcome to your first lesson in American History:

Here are some quotes from Jefferson and madison to get you started!!
-17)A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- 18)this is the sum of good government.

-19)Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

-20)History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

-21)I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

-22)I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Making that big leap from the 1780's to modern Parties and thinking they're the same thing and the language is the same is the first and only clue anyone needs to know about you and your grasp of any of the subjects here.

actually from Aristotle forward there have been only two political ideas: freedom versus govt. Now do you understand? Our founders understood that big liberal govt had been the source of evil in human history. Thats is why they gave us freedom from liberal govt. Why do you think modern liberals want to read the Constitution to say anything they want it to say?? Ans: they are opposed to freedom. This is why they spied for Stalin gave him the bomb and elected single payer Obama.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Different political party!

The GOP that Lincoln ran on is the same one that Progressive Donald John Trump ran on and not the one that Jefferson ran on!

So then why not tell us the name of the party at Jefferson formed and what that party stood forwhen you know that he will know the purpose of the American revolution and the basic principle of your country

I did and provided links. It is you playing as if the name of Jefferson political party is the same as today GOP!

The thing is today GOP has a lot of know nothing supporters which left the Democratic Party when Johnson chased you from the party!

It is you that can not understand the reality is the Democratic party came from Jefferson Republican Party and not today GOP!

You are a Know Nothing WHIG!

How is being a modern Republican being a no nothing if Modern Republicans stand for limited government exactly as Jefferson and Madison did when they formed the Republican Party.

Know Nothing Political Movement!

Look them up and learn something new!

You even writing No Nothing show me you are just playing stupid and trying to twist history to support your opinion on something. Democrats like Andrew Jackson were Conservative in their day and Lincoln was Progressive. Times change and voters move from one political party to the next. The Jefferson Republican party are not today GOP but today GOP are more like the Know Nothing Political Movement that split from the Republican Party!

The Know Nothings came and went before the contemporary Republican Party but in their obstinate nativist xenophobia and thuggery yes they were very much a precursor of both Donald T. Rump and the Klan, who both exploit the same divisive paranoiae. Coincidentally they called themselves (at first) the American Republican Party, but that was 1843, nine years before the Republican Party (of today) was founded, some twenty -eight years after Thomas Jefferson was already dead. The Know Nothings collapsed about the same time.

And yet --- they are not unrelated in origins....:

>> By 1854, when the activists allied with a rump faction of the Whig Party to run a slate of candidates on an anti-immigration platform, they were labeled the “Know-Nothing Party.”

(get that? "A rump faction". I didn't even write that, although I wish I did.... )
The following year, the Know-Nothings officially dubbed themselves the American Party. In 1856 they met in Philadelphia to pick a future president [candidate]. That process didn’t go well. Millard Fillmore was chosen as the party standard-bearer (he would carry just one state in November: Maryland), but the seeds for the Know-Nothing’s demise were planted at their own convention.

A wing of Southerners moved to pass a platform plank calling for the preservation of slavery. This alarmed many Northern and Midwestern Know-Nothings, who bolted to another newly formed political entity: The Republican Party. << --- Immigration and the Rise and Fall of the Know Nothing Party​

Parallels between Rump and the Know-Nothings have been noted throughout the last campaign. In the 1850s for the Know Nothings.the xenophobia target was Irish and German immigrants geographically, and Catholics religiously. In 2016 for Rump it was Mexicans geographically and Muslims religiously. Same shit, different century. Con artists trying to exploit irrational public fears for their own self-serving gain. We saw this movie before and continue to not-learn from it.

• Is Rump Changing the GOP Into the Know-Nothing Party?
• Rump Isn't a Fascist, He's a Media-Savvy Know-Nothing
  
• Rump Isn't the First Know-Nothing to Capture American Hearts

Actually the issue here is the Party Jefferson and Madison founded in 1792. Jefferson called it the Second American Revolution because it made clear what the Revolution had been about. Washington and Hamilton thought it had been about freedom from the British govt while the Republicans though it had been about freedom from all govt.
Interesting to learn -right?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Tell that to the farmers in western Pennsylvania in 1794.

Jefferson and Republicans were not in power then. 1+1=2

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I like Ronald Reagan a lot, but both would be considered "RINOs" by the standards of the assholes in charge of the "Republican Party" today.

Goldwater wanted to bomb North Vietnam and eliminate Social Security so more conservative than Trump who is his own kind of conservative anyway. You have to step back and ask yourself who is for limited govt like Aristotle and Jefferson were. Clearly Trump more than Hillary. Do you understand?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Do you truly believe Thomas Jefferson would not be considered a ******* RINO by the standards of those who call themselves Republicans in 2017?

what??? Jefferson wanted very very tiny govt far smaller than those who call themselves Republicans today. A RHINO is a Republican not really for tiny govt at all. Now do you understand?????

 

[rightwinger]

Jefferson was the first Republican

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Jefferson was the first Republican

Yes he and Madison in 1792!!! Thank you!!

 

[Pogo]

Moreover, Jefferson and Madison were themselves Liberals. They would not have been angling for "freedom from" what they had just got done creating with the Constitution.

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

Your inability to navigate what the word "Liberal" means is your problem, not mine. And the OP's as well -- he's even more clueless, trying to connect his Republican Party to a man who was already 28 years dead when it started.

I made no mention of contemporary Liberalism, nor what ignorant wags pervert it into. I referred to Jefferson an Madison --- who, with their cohorts, founded this country on the principles of Liberalism. PERIOD.

ERGO --- they would not have been starting a political party to undermine what they had just built. DUH.

Your inability to put anything in context is duly noted, as I explained. Your inability to grasp simple concepts is your problem, not mine. To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

Again for you Illiterati --- I made no mention of contemporary Liberals. ***YOU*** did that.

...because, el tardo, YOU didn't.

NOW you've got it.

And that makes it your problem ----- not mine. Which is what I already said umpteen posts ago.

 

[Iceweasel]

Nonsense. Liberals today believe in the opposite of what Jefferson stood for. It's dishonest to try to portray him as a modern day liberal, especially since freedom from big mother government is what the revolution was all about.

Your inability to navigate what the word "Liberal" means is your problem, not mine. And the OP's as well -- he's even more clueless, trying to connect his Republican Party to a man who was already 28 years dead when it started.

I made no mention of contemporary Liberalism, nor what ignorant wags pervert it into. I referred to Jefferson an Madison --- who, with their cohorts, founded this country on the principles of Liberalism. PERIOD.

ERGO --- they would not have been starting a political party to undermine what they had just built. DUH.

Your inability to put anything in context is duly noted, as I explained. Your inability to grasp simple concepts is your problem, not mine. To call some historical figure a liberal (or conservative) makes no sense out of context the way you presented it.

Again for you Illiterati --- I made no mention of contemporary Liberals. ***YOU*** did that.

...because, el tardo, YOU didn't.

NOW you've got it.

And that makes it your problem ----- not mine. Which is what I already said umpteen posts ago.

How is it my problem? What did I just get? You're a dimwit.