georgephillip
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #801
Andy Delusion brings his own special brand of myopia to how this economy functions, imho. I suspect he represent a majority on this board but a minority in the country.
Warren and the Divine Right of Capital: Accountable Capitalism Act
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- Start date
georgephillip
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #802
So...you prove capitalism is evil by posting a picture of police state tactics.Katrina was the match and capitalism is the fuel that destroyed New Orleans; blaming "government" makes as much sense as blaming WMDs for the capitalist looting of Iraq.
"Profits Over People
"Clearly, in the minds of the billionaires who rule this country, war and profits come before relief for ordinary people faced with the most difficult of situations.
"Partially due to the huge amount of resources devoted to the Iraq war, state and local governments have implemented vicious budget cuts that have caused, amongst other things, less money to be devoted to dealing with natural disasters.
"Recent years have seen a marked increase in the number of hurricanes and other major natural disasters, some of which the probably the result of climate change.
"Of course, it would have been impossible to prevent all the damage done by Katrina, but much of it was preventable.
"New Orleans has a record of flooding during hurricanes. The city is built below sea level, and it is kept from constant flooding by a system of levees and pumps.
"The levees are set up to withstand some level three hurricanes, but Katrina was a level four hurricane. There is plenty of technology to create levees that withstand even level five hurricanes."
Hurricane Katrina: A Disaster Worsened by Capitalism | Socialist Alternative
Yeah, not seeing a real selling point for increased government control here.
So, if your job here is selling people (Ha! See what I did there?) on the joys of all-powerful government, Imma be real with you, Chief -- it ain't workin'.
Who controls government in the US, capitalists or workers?
The Making of the American Police State
"The vast majority of the American police state remains firmly within the public sector. But this does not mean the criminal justice buildup has nothing to do with capitalism.
"At its heart, the new American repression is very much about the restoration and maintenance of ruling class power.
"American society and economy have from the start evolved through forms of racialized violence, but criminal justice was not always so politically central.
"For the better part of a century after the end of Reconstruction in the 1870s, the national incarceration rate hovered at around 100 to 110 per 100,000. But then, in the early 1970s, the incarceration rate began a precipitous and continual climb upward."
Government responds to those who control the economy.
A democratic economy will produce a government that doesn't have to rely on police state tactics.
Grumblenuts
Gold Member
- Oct 16, 2017
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I did both and yeah, witnessing actual, struggling small business owners blindly support all the big fakers who just use and abuse them is sad. Now you get to stay home and call this private insurer or that private provider because they've (again accidentally, oopsies!) involved you square in the middle of their endless hidden efforts to rip each other off for fun and profit. The waste generated just due to that aspect of Obamacare must be astronomical. A few years prior none would believe themselves capable of sinking to such desperate, embarrassing depths just to make an extra buck. But that's the example those with too much always set, innit. What? Don't you wanna be fabulously rich like them? Oh, you're just envious, admit it! LOL
It sure is. I think they're just desperate. They're on the front lines, getting fucked the hardest by the regulatory regime you all are so fond of. They probably feel like they have nowhere to turn. So they give their vote to whoever says they'll fix it. Even if they probably won't. Dems don't even pretend they'll fix it.
The new millennia was lousy with monopolizing acquisitions, basically big biz legislating it's own growth.
as well as legislating it's own protective regs via 'sympathetic politicians'....
(something Mr B enlightened me to)
Our American gestapo provides us the best signs & symptoms of a lopsided system.
classism and class envy are two different distinctions.
the only folks jealous of a meritocracy ,are those who can't control it
~S~
georgephillip
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #807
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
Her best economic idea was lying about being an Indian.
Made her millions.
Grumblenuts
Gold Member
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Can't say I follow your intent there much at all, but seems to me, meritocracy in particular merits more thought and discussion. Just taking the root..
..exposes argument favoring meritocracy so transparently redundant and circular it would seem virtually meaningless. As opposed to what, bad, unworthy, undeserving? Who would argue for that? Of course, one still has to wonder. Considering, for example, who Trump (a Wharton School grad) has chosen to run many things. Deliberate stupidity / willful destruction because class alone, really? Our experiment with democracy has come down to this? Boggles the mind.
Then again, the actual definition, which I admit having not checked in many years..
.stresses its application only to "government" and "power." Maybe I listened to too much NPR in the dark past, but the term has most frequently been brought up in reference to hiring and college admissions in my experience. Academic testing which obviously favors those publishing and distributing the tests and preps. All of which has soured my opinion of meritocracy in general. But hell, limiting the scope of application to politics? Government / positions of power? Like, Duh! Why would anyone want to put a dope in charge of anything other than to destroy it so that they could then turn around and say "See, told ya that was no damn good!"?
Andylusion
Platinum Member
No one forced Walmart into Cambodia either, but Walmart sure moved its fat ass in there to exploit their cheap labor and loose environmental regulations. Did you know Walmart was a big "Buy American!" screamer until suddenly... they weren't anymore
You should stop shopping at WalMart until they make all their goods in the US...….
You people never learn do you?
The whole reason Apple invested so heavily into Ireland, was because of the lower tax rate.
Increase taxes on corporations will only result in corporations investing more and more outside the US.
When will you people ever learn? How many times do you have to keep trying the same failed policies, before you figure out they don't work?You people are too dense to understand when rich corporations dodge their taxes, you pay the difference.
Sales at Apple’s Irish holding company rise 13.1% to $155.8bn
"In 2016, the European Commission found that Apple had benefited from illegal state aid in the Republic, and ordered it to pay €13 billion in taxes and penalties it said were owed. That money was paid into an escrow account pending the conclusion of pending appeals of the decision by the company and the State, who both claim the commission erred in its judgment."
Well first.... illegal state aid? Ireland is a sovereign state, and has the right to determine their own laws. For the EC to declare that their low tax is illegal, is dubious to me.
You realize that the Dutch still have a church tax, right? If the Dutch then said that you George, were illegally not paying the church tax, would you still be on here citing other countries claiming someone is violating a law from another country? No you wouldn't. We all know you wouldn't. You are only citing this now, because it happens to fit your partisan narrative.
If a Saudi man married your daughter, and then started beating the crap out of her, you wouldn't just accept it because the Saudis sent an official note that beatings are legal there.
But back to the main point:
Other than the dubious 'it's illegal claim'... the rest of that is dead on right, and makes my point. Apple is reacting to the tax incentives it faces. And by the way, Apple already openly said that if the tax benefit of investing in Ireland changes, they will move operations.
Again, Apple is still going to react to the incentives given. If you jack up taxes on their operations in Ireland... they are not just going to pay higher tax. They are going to move operations elsewhere. If you increase taxes here, they'll move there. If you increase taxes there, they'll move somewhere else.
There is always going to be somewhere that has a lower tax rate. Always. And business will react to that.
So you can complain about "You people are too dense to understand when rich corporations dodge their taxes, you pay the difference." but that complaint changes nothing.
Whether you believe that to be true or not, does not matter. Business will continue to react to the tax incentives given to it.
I mean again... Venezuela had the same view as you. They taxed the crap out of business, and business started leaving. They got so pissed about business leaving, they started nationalizing. Now they have almost no business left in the country, mass unemployment, and the country is in ruins.
Business can move.
Did you learn nothing from France's wealth tax? France imposed a large wealth tax, and hundreds of businesses packed up and left the country. The flight was so bad, they had to repeal the wealth tax.
So all your blaw blaw blaw about how terrible it is, doesn't matter. Business *WILL* react to tax incentives. You jack up taxes, and they'll move someplace else.
Andylusion
Platinum Member
So...you prove capitalism is evil by posting a picture of police state tactics.Katrina was the match and capitalism is the fuel that destroyed New Orleans; blaming "government" makes as much sense as blaming WMDs for the capitalist looting of Iraq.
"Profits Over People
"Clearly, in the minds of the billionaires who rule this country, war and profits come before relief for ordinary people faced with the most difficult of situations.
"Partially due to the huge amount of resources devoted to the Iraq war, state and local governments have implemented vicious budget cuts that have caused, amongst other things, less money to be devoted to dealing with natural disasters.
"Recent years have seen a marked increase in the number of hurricanes and other major natural disasters, some of which the probably the result of climate change.
"Of course, it would have been impossible to prevent all the damage done by Katrina, but much of it was preventable.
"New Orleans has a record of flooding during hurricanes. The city is built below sea level, and it is kept from constant flooding by a system of levees and pumps.
"The levees are set up to withstand some level three hurricanes, but Katrina was a level four hurricane. There is plenty of technology to create levees that withstand even level five hurricanes."
Hurricane Katrina: A Disaster Worsened by Capitalism | Socialist Alternative
Yeah, not seeing a real selling point for increased government control here.
So, if your job here is selling people (Ha! See what I did there?) on the joys of all-powerful government, Imma be real with you, Chief -- it ain't workin'.
Capitalism can be a grand system
You see you're approach is only black/ white
Capitalism needs a leash , otherwise it eats itself
said leash is bureaucratic oversight, da gub'mit
Free markets are anarchy w/out this
~S~
I disagree with that. You know just look at 2008. That's the perfect example. Banks are the most highly regulated, with the most heavy oversight, in the country. Did all your oversight, and regulations, stop anything? No.
And what were the two largest and most expensive bailouts of the entire crash? Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac, out of all the lenders in the entire crash, it was the two that are the most closely tied to government.
And your system never has stopped anything. In fact, if you look at all the areas of the economy that have the most government intervention.... it's those areas that have the most problems. Education, health care, banking. Those three areas have the absolute most government regulation and oversight, and those are the three the most screwed up areas of the country.
There is zero evidence that capitalism without government, will hang itself. And every single time people point to an example of capitalism failing, it always ends up being a socialized system.
The Federal Government, directly sued banks, to force them to make sub-prime loans. Then those loans fail, and people start screaming the capitalism fails? If the government had not forced banks to make bad loans the sub-prime crash would never have happened.
Look at all the areas of the economy, that are the least regulated. Do you see country wide shortages of office supplies? No. Do you see a mass shortage of food? No. Do you see a mass shortage of office space? No.
Let's even look at local laws. Take housing. Zoning laws are super strict in LA. Houston TX has no zoning laws whatsoever. Where do you see mass housing shortages, and extreme homelessness? LA... not Houston. In fact Houston has some of the most affordable living space in the country... on average. I'm not saying it's extremely cheap, just that compared to over similarly growing and wealthy cities, it's one of the cheapest.
Again, no evidence that unregulated Capitalism will hang itself.
One of the best aspects of Capitalism, is that is self regulating. If you produce a bad product.... we stop buying it. You go out of business. If you provide a bad service, we stop buying it, and you go out of business.
This is why Angie's List exists. We look up from other people that have tried your stuff, and find out it it is crap or not.
Regulations and oversight, usually have the opposite effect. Most of those regulations and oversight, are routinely used by bad actors, to cover their deeds.
The most famous example, was Enron. There was a meeting between Jeff Skilling and the bond holders, where they said directly that looking at the companies reports, it seem to appear as though the company was hiding something. The executives with Jeff Skilling told the concerned bond holders, that they had submitted the proper filing with the SEC, and they could see that for themselves.
They used the fact they had filed papers with the SEC, to conceal the fact the company was in a death spiral. The SEC and other regulations, and regulators, never caught Enron. Enron itself filed for bankruptcy, which revealed the fraud.
If there had never been a regulator, I wager the bond holders in that meeting in the 1990s, would have hired investigators to look into Enron's dealings. It was because there was an SEC, and Enron used the SEC to hide their fraud, that it continued.
I see you've little knowledge of the Clinton's rescinding Glass Steagal, nor their henchman Barney Frank (bankster /politician) chairing the entire whitewash for them years later
Seriously, learn some fiscal history
~S~
Toddsterpatriot
Diamond Member
I see you've little knowledge of the Clinton's rescinding Glass Steagal,
If left in place, which part of Glass Steagall would have prevent banks from writing, or buying, crappy mortgages?
Share some of your "fiscal history".
Grumblenuts
Gold Member
- Oct 16, 2017
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Jeebus, in march the Clinton supporters..
daveman
Diamond Member
The leash on business the left wants isn't a leash -- it's a noose. See Warren's idiotic plan.So...you prove capitalism is evil by posting a picture of police state tactics.Katrina was the match and capitalism is the fuel that destroyed New Orleans; blaming "government" makes as much sense as blaming WMDs for the capitalist looting of Iraq.
"Profits Over People
"Clearly, in the minds of the billionaires who rule this country, war and profits come before relief for ordinary people faced with the most difficult of situations.
"Partially due to the huge amount of resources devoted to the Iraq war, state and local governments have implemented vicious budget cuts that have caused, amongst other things, less money to be devoted to dealing with natural disasters.
"Recent years have seen a marked increase in the number of hurricanes and other major natural disasters, some of which the probably the result of climate change.
"Of course, it would have been impossible to prevent all the damage done by Katrina, but much of it was preventable.
"New Orleans has a record of flooding during hurricanes. The city is built below sea level, and it is kept from constant flooding by a system of levees and pumps.
"The levees are set up to withstand some level three hurricanes, but Katrina was a level four hurricane. There is plenty of technology to create levees that withstand even level five hurricanes."
Hurricane Katrina: A Disaster Worsened by Capitalism | Socialist Alternative
Yeah, not seeing a real selling point for increased government control here.
So, if your job here is selling people (Ha! See what I did there?) on the joys of all-powerful government, Imma be real with you, Chief -- it ain't workin'.
Capitalism can be a grand system
You see you're approach is only black/ white
Capitalism needs a leash , otherwise it eats itself
said leash is bureaucratic oversight, da gub'mit
Free markets are anarchy w/out this
~S~
daveman
Diamond Member
It always has so far.So...you prove capitalism is evil by posting a picture of police state tactics.Katrina was the match and capitalism is the fuel that destroyed New Orleans; blaming "government" makes as much sense as blaming WMDs for the capitalist looting of Iraq.
"Profits Over People
"Clearly, in the minds of the billionaires who rule this country, war and profits come before relief for ordinary people faced with the most difficult of situations.
"Partially due to the huge amount of resources devoted to the Iraq war, state and local governments have implemented vicious budget cuts that have caused, amongst other things, less money to be devoted to dealing with natural disasters.
"Recent years have seen a marked increase in the number of hurricanes and other major natural disasters, some of which the probably the result of climate change.
"Of course, it would have been impossible to prevent all the damage done by Katrina, but much of it was preventable.
"New Orleans has a record of flooding during hurricanes. The city is built below sea level, and it is kept from constant flooding by a system of levees and pumps.
"The levees are set up to withstand some level three hurricanes, but Katrina was a level four hurricane. There is plenty of technology to create levees that withstand even level five hurricanes."
Hurricane Katrina: A Disaster Worsened by Capitalism | Socialist Alternative
Yeah, not seeing a real selling point for increased government control here.
So, if your job here is selling people (Ha! See what I did there?) on the joys of all-powerful government, Imma be real with you, Chief -- it ain't workin'.Who controls government in the US, capitalists or workers?
The Making of the American Police State
"The vast majority of the American police state remains firmly within the public sector. But this does not mean the criminal justice buildup has nothing to do with capitalism.
"At its heart, the new American repression is very much about the restoration and maintenance of ruling class power.
"American society and economy have from the start evolved through forms of racialized violence, but criminal justice was not always so politically central.
"For the better part of a century after the end of Reconstruction in the 1870s, the national incarceration rate hovered at around 100 to 110 per 100,000. But then, in the early 1970s, the incarceration rate began a precipitous and continual climb upward."
Government responds to those who control the economy.
A democratic economy will produce a government that doesn't have to rely on police state tactics.
You condemn oppression by corporatists.
And you think the answer is oppression by bureaucrats.
georgephillip
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #817
Her best economic idea was lying about being an Indian.
Made her millions.
But not billion$
georgephillip
Diamond Member
- Thread starter
- #818
It always has so far.So...you prove capitalism is evil by posting a picture of police state tactics.Katrina was the match and capitalism is the fuel that destroyed New Orleans; blaming "government" makes as much sense as blaming WMDs for the capitalist looting of Iraq.
"Profits Over People
"Clearly, in the minds of the billionaires who rule this country, war and profits come before relief for ordinary people faced with the most difficult of situations.
"Partially due to the huge amount of resources devoted to the Iraq war, state and local governments have implemented vicious budget cuts that have caused, amongst other things, less money to be devoted to dealing with natural disasters.
"Recent years have seen a marked increase in the number of hurricanes and other major natural disasters, some of which the probably the result of climate change.
"Of course, it would have been impossible to prevent all the damage done by Katrina, but much of it was preventable.
"New Orleans has a record of flooding during hurricanes. The city is built below sea level, and it is kept from constant flooding by a system of levees and pumps.
"The levees are set up to withstand some level three hurricanes, but Katrina was a level four hurricane. There is plenty of technology to create levees that withstand even level five hurricanes."
Hurricane Katrina: A Disaster Worsened by Capitalism | Socialist Alternative
Yeah, not seeing a real selling point for increased government control here.
So, if your job here is selling people (Ha! See what I did there?) on the joys of all-powerful government, Imma be real with you, Chief -- it ain't workin'.Who controls government in the US, capitalists or workers?
The Making of the American Police State
"The vast majority of the American police state remains firmly within the public sector. But this does not mean the criminal justice buildup has nothing to do with capitalism.
"At its heart, the new American repression is very much about the restoration and maintenance of ruling class power.
"American society and economy have from the start evolved through forms of racialized violence, but criminal justice was not always so politically central.
"For the better part of a century after the end of Reconstruction in the 1870s, the national incarceration rate hovered at around 100 to 110 per 100,000. But then, in the early 1970s, the incarceration rate began a precipitous and continual climb upward."
Government responds to those who control the economy.
A democratic economy will produce a government that doesn't have to rely on police state tactics.
You condemn oppression by corporatists.
And you think the answer is oppression by bureaucrats.
Why has government always supported those who control the economy?
Because throughout history there have always been two main economic classes, those of produce economic surplus and those who appropriate and distribute that surplus.
Masters and slaves.
Lords and serfs
Employers and employees.
Governments always go with the money, so why not distribute the surplus democratically instead of allowing a fraction of one percent of the population to acquire vast private fortunes in the first place?
Learning from Emilia Romagna’s cooperative economy
daveman
Diamond Member
It's not cooperative if it's done with a government gun pointed at your head.It always has so far.So...you prove capitalism is evil by posting a picture of police state tactics.Katrina was the match and capitalism is the fuel that destroyed New Orleans; blaming "government" makes as much sense as blaming WMDs for the capitalist looting of Iraq.
"Profits Over People
"Clearly, in the minds of the billionaires who rule this country, war and profits come before relief for ordinary people faced with the most difficult of situations.
"Partially due to the huge amount of resources devoted to the Iraq war, state and local governments have implemented vicious budget cuts that have caused, amongst other things, less money to be devoted to dealing with natural disasters.
"Recent years have seen a marked increase in the number of hurricanes and other major natural disasters, some of which the probably the result of climate change.
"Of course, it would have been impossible to prevent all the damage done by Katrina, but much of it was preventable.
"New Orleans has a record of flooding during hurricanes. The city is built below sea level, and it is kept from constant flooding by a system of levees and pumps.
"The levees are set up to withstand some level three hurricanes, but Katrina was a level four hurricane. There is plenty of technology to create levees that withstand even level five hurricanes."
Hurricane Katrina: A Disaster Worsened by Capitalism | Socialist Alternative
Yeah, not seeing a real selling point for increased government control here.
So, if your job here is selling people (Ha! See what I did there?) on the joys of all-powerful government, Imma be real with you, Chief -- it ain't workin'.Who controls government in the US, capitalists or workers?
The Making of the American Police State
"The vast majority of the American police state remains firmly within the public sector. But this does not mean the criminal justice buildup has nothing to do with capitalism.
"At its heart, the new American repression is very much about the restoration and maintenance of ruling class power.
"American society and economy have from the start evolved through forms of racialized violence, but criminal justice was not always so politically central.
"For the better part of a century after the end of Reconstruction in the 1870s, the national incarceration rate hovered at around 100 to 110 per 100,000. But then, in the early 1970s, the incarceration rate began a precipitous and continual climb upward."
Government responds to those who control the economy.
A democratic economy will produce a government that doesn't have to rely on police state tactics.
You condemn oppression by corporatists.
And you think the answer is oppression by bureaucrats.Why has government always supported those who control the economy?
Because throughout history there have always been two main economic classes, those of produce economic surplus and those who appropriate and distribute that surplus.
Masters and slaves.
Lords and serfs
Employers and employees.
Governments always go with the money, so why not distribute the surplus democratically instead of allowing a fraction of one percent of the population to acquire vast private fortunes in the first place?
Learning from Emilia Romagna’s cooperative economy
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