Want to cut taxes??

[Micky G. Jagger]

Seems you've very conveniently glossed over this fact time and again.

In 1788, there were well established common law rules of construction that were used to ascertain the will of the lawmakers who made a constitution. Seems you've very conveniently glossed over this fact time and again.

 

[Oddball]

IOW, you have no answer, other than you know what the Constitution is about more so that Madison & Jefferson did.

You're dismissed, Chumlee.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

IOW, you have no answer, other than you know what the Constitution is about more so that Madison & Jefferson did.

You have no answer, other than you know what the Constitution is about more so than Hamilton, Washington, Gerry, Marshall, Patrick Henry, William Grayson, Richard Henry Lee and Robert Yates.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

If "general welfare" was supposed to be as all-encompassing as you claim, why did not Article 1, Section 8, just stop after "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"?

I'll tell you why...Because that clause was there to set up the specifically enumerated and limited powers to follow, not just to pad out the document.

If Congress wasn't granted all-encompassing power, why was it necessary to include a list of things over which Congress had no power?

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.) (Section in parentheses clarified by the 16th Amendment.)

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.​

 

[shintao]

Madison was the primary author of the Constitution, knucklehead. He also spelled out, in very explicit detail, what he did and didn't mean by "general welfare" in Federalist #41.
Seems you've very conveniently glossed over this fact time and again.

That you're "interpreting" your way out of original intent shows that you're either willingly obtuse or simply a subversive, who pays but mere lip service to the Constitution when it suits your Fabian socialist authoritarian politics...After all, if "general welfare" were truly the be-all-end-all of Article 1, Section 8, why did it not just stop after "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"?

To take madison seriously as some mega-god to the Constitutional intent is laughable. Perhaps you can show us the federalist papers in the Constitution under Article what? You would think Madison was the only one who had an opinion, or signed that damned piece of paper as Bush like to call it. He is a mere voice in the wilderness, the Supreme Court decided what General Welfare means, so live with it.

 

[jeffrockit]

You lie.

The Iraq War will cost us more than $3 trillion. The measures in the stimulus bill are nominally worth $787 billion.

I never lie. Those figures, that I linked, were from the govt. You, on the other hand, provided no link for the bogus numbers you presented.

The Iraq War will cost us more than $3 trillion. The measures in the stimulus bill are nominally worth $787 billion.

Stating it again changes nothing. Unless you have a real link to back it up, you are the liar.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

I never lie. Those figures, that I linked, were from the govt. You, on the other hand, provided no link for the bogus numbers you presented.

The Iraq War will cost us more than $3 trillion. The measures in the stimulus bill are nominally worth $787 billion.

Stating it again changes nothing. Unless you have a real link to back it up, you are the liar.

The Iraq War will cost us more than $3 trillion​

A $3 trillion figure for the total cost strikes us as judicious, and probably errs on the low side.

--From The Times; February 23, 2008; Joseph Stiglitz and Linda Bilmes
​

Figuring in macroeconomic costs and interest-the war has been funded with much borrowed money-the cost rises to $4.5 trillion; add Afghanistan, and the bill tops $7 trillion.

--Publishers Weekly
​

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

Madison was the primary author of the Constitution, knucklehead. He also spelled out, in very explicit detail, what he did and didn't mean by "general welfare" in Federalist #41.
Seems you've very conveniently glossed over this fact time and again.

That you're "interpreting" your way out of original intent shows that you're either willingly obtuse or simply a subversive, who pays but mere lip service to the Constitution when it suits your Fabian socialist authoritarian politics...After all, if "general welfare" were truly the be-all-end-all of Article 1, Section 8, why did it not just stop after "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"?

To take Madison seriously as some mega-god to the Constitutional intent is laughable. Perhaps you can show us the federalist papers in the Constitution under Article what? You would think Madison was the only one who had an opinion, or signed that damned piece of paper as Bush like to call it. He is a mere voice in the wilderness, the Supreme Court decided what General Welfare means, so live with it.

The truth is that much of the Constitution is ambiguous. It had to be to garner the approval of both New England the South.

Ambiguity is what enable James Madison to reasonably contend that the power of Congress was limited to specific enumerated matters, while at the same time permitting Elbridge Gerry to argue rationally that the power of Congress to establish a banking corporation was as obvious as it power to adjourn from day to day.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

you know what the Constitution is about more so that Madison & Jefferson did.

I know more than you do about the rules of construction that Madison claimed he used to interpret the Constitution

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

James Madison admits that Congress has General Power
​

"General welfare" meant...general power might be exercised by Congress.

--James Madison; Speech in the U. S. House of Representatives on February 2, 1791 during debate on a motion to pass a bill that established the Bank of the United States; A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875; Annals of Congress, House of Representatives, 1st Congress, 3rd Session; Pages 1945 & 1946.

 

[RyzinEnagy]

I never lie. Those figures, that I linked, were from the govt. You, on the other hand, provided no link for the bogus numbers you presented.

The Iraq War will cost us more than $3 trillion. The measures in the stimulus bill are nominally worth $787 billion.

Stating it again changes nothing. Unless you have a real link to back it up, you are the liar.

The $3 trillion was a figure published by the Washington Post, which takes into account the interest we will pay on the borrowed money we used to finance the wars, the money we spend and the loss in productivity from soldiers who died or were seriously wounded, among other things. It's an estimate that could turn out to be true, especially with the debt part (in before people respond with Obama's spending...it's irrelevant to this and only serves to deflect from the discussion), and only taking into account the appropriations in the budget is irresponsible.

Also, this site puts the cost of the Iraq war at $750 billion on Congress approved spending alone.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

Name the founding father who signed the Constitution and was arrested, charged and tried for treason in 1807, convicted and then hanged.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

Madison...spelled out, in very explicit detail, what he did and didn't mean by "general welfare" in Federalist #41

the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare.

--James Madison; Federalist 41​

The powers of Congress extend to every case that is of the least importance — there is nothing valuable to human nature, nothing dear to freemen, but what is within its power.

--Robert Yates; Anti-Federalist Brutus #1​

 

[Oddball]

BWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!

You oh-so conveniently edit out the the sentences which framed that passage and give it its context.

Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power “to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,” amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.”

You are a total liar and an fraud.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

Congress has authority to make laws which will affect the lives, the liberty, and property of every man in the United States.

--Robert Yates; Anti-Federalist Brutus #1

 

[Oddball]

Like I said, you're a liar and intellectual fraud.

Bye-bye, asshole.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

The legislative power...there is no limitation to this power...the legislature...are the sole judges...to determine what is for the general welfare.

--Robert Yates

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

James Madison believed in Rules of Constitutional Interpretation
​

As preliminaries to a right interpretation, he [Madison] laid down the following rules:

--A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation: U.S. Congressional Documents and Debates, 1774 - 1875; Annals of Congress, House of Representatives, 1st Congress, 3rd Session
Pages 1979 & 1980​

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

James Madison's First Rule of Constitutional Interpretation​

An interpretation that destroys the very characteristic of the Government cannot be just.

--James Madison; 1791​

 

[saveliberty]

James Madison's First Rule of Constitutional Interpretation​

An interpretation that destroys the very characteristic of the Government cannot be just.

--James Madison; 1791​

Which is precisely why your interpretation is abstructionist to self determination/liberty protected by the Constitution. The key characteristic of our government is noninterference of the government in our freedoms as long as they do not enfringe on others.