Want to cut taxes??

James Madison's First Rule of Constitutional Interpretation

An interpretation that destroys the very characteristic of the Government cannot be just.

--James Madison; 1791​

Which is precisely why your interpretation is abstructionist to self determination/liberty protected by the Constitution. The key characteristic of our government is noninterference of the government in our freedoms as long as they do not enfringe on others.

So you agree the stock market is unconstitutional because it allows investors to rape the wages & benefits due to workers.

You are against corporate pollution and want them highly regulated.

You feel drugs should all be legalized.

That a women has a right to her own body.

Want to go on?
 
James Madison's First Rule of Constitutional Interpretation

An interpretation that destroys the very characteristic of the Government cannot be just.

--James Madison; 1791​

What set of rules, or methodology, do you suppose Madison wanted us to use to ascertain the "characteristics" of the Government? Should we ascertain the characteristics" of the Government from the Constitution, or should we be guided by the actions of the government, such as the action of Congress when it ignored the fact that the Constitution didn't authorize the President to issue religious advice, and instead elevated a number of precedents in Holy Writ above the Constitution, to find authority for the President to issue religious advice to the people?
 
James Madison's First Rule of Constitutional Interpretation

An interpretation that destroys the very characteristic of the Government cannot be just.

--James Madison; 1791​

What set of rules, or methodology, do you suppose Madison wanted us to use to ascertain the "characteristics" of the Government? Should we ascertain the characteristics" of the Government from the Constitution, or should we be guided by the actions of the government, such as the action of Congress when it ignored the fact that the Constitution didn't authorize the President to issue religious advice, and instead elevated a number of precedents in Holy Writ above the Constitution, to find authority for the President to issue religious advice to the people?

Since Madison neglected to provide a fair and objective set of rules and principles to ascertain the "'characteristics' of the Government", it is hard to see how his first rule of construction is going to be of much help as we endeavor to ascertain the will of the lawmakers who made the Constitution.
 
James Madison's Second Rule of Constitutional Interpretation

Where a meaning is clear, the consequences, whatever they may be, are to be admitted—where doubtful, it is fairly triable by its consequences.

--James Madison; 1791
 
Nope, you're wrong.

"General welfare" means whatever Congress says it means.
we have a constitution.
The Constitution grants Congress power to tax and spend to provide for the general welfare.

remember the SPECIFIC powers granted to the congress via our constitution.
The Constitution specifically grants Congress power to tax and spend to provide for the general welfare.

limited scope of powers
The power of Congress to tax and spend to provide for the general welfare is within the scope of Congressional powers.

Again, you idiot ******* TWIT... you cannot just take the part of the sentence WITHOUT THE DIRECT OBJECT included... you fail...

You ******* troll
 
General welfare spending is a constitutionally mandated expense. In fact, the same clause that grants Congress power to tax and spend money for the common defense also grants it power to tax and spend for the general welfare.

How did you arrive at that opinion?
Most of our federal budget is NOT covered under the specific enumerated powers within the Constitution.
Name all of the things in our federal budget that you believe are not covered under the specific enumerated powers within the Constitution.

the nanny state
Americans love the nanny state, dude.

Social Security
Medicare
Medicaid
Department of Education
Administration for Children and Families (ACF)
Administration for Native Americans
Administration on Aging (AoA)
Administration on Developmental Disabilities
African Development Foundation
Agency for International Development
Agricultural Marketing Service
Alabama Home Page
Alabama State, County, and City Websites
Alaska Home Page
Alaska State, County, and City Websites
American Samoa Home Page
AMTRAK (National Railroad Passenger Corporation)
Appalachian Regional Commission
Arctic Research Commission
Arizona Home Page
Arizona State, County, and City Websites
Arkansas Home Page
Arkansas State, County, and City Websites
Arthritis and Musculoskeletal Interagency Coordinating Committee
Barry M. Goldwater Scholarship and Excellence in Education Foundation
Bonneville Power Administration
Broadcasting Board of Governors (Voice of America, Radio|TV Marti and more)
Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA)


All of which covered in the budget.. .care for me to go on, troll??? Plenty of letters left in the alphabet
 
James Madison's Second Rule of Constitutional Interpretation

Where a meaning is clear, the consequences, whatever they may be, are to be admitted—where doubtful, it is fairly triable by its consequences.

--James Madison; 1791

Where a meaning is clear

Note that James Madison has not provided us any rules governing the significations/meanings we attach to the words in the Constitution. It appears we are permitted to understand words in their usual and most known significations. But, it also appears that we are allowed to understand them in their unusual and least known significations.

If we were interpreted the term "general welfare", we could attach any of the following definition to the word general.

Comprehending many species or individuals, not special, not particular, lax in signification, not restrained to any special or particular import, not restrained by narrow or distinctive limitations, relating to a whole class or body of men or a whole kind of any being, publick, comprising the whole, having relation to all, extensive though not universal, common, usual. compendious, the whole, the totality, the publick, the interest of the whole or one that has the command over an army.
Perhaps James Madison just assumed that words would be generally understood in their usual and most known signification - not so much regarding the propriety of grammar, as their general and popular use - according the the well established common law rule of construction, as articulated by the Judge in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, which James Madison held in his hands as he helped frame the Constitution.
 
James Madison's Second Rule of Constitutional Interpretation

Where a meaning is clear, the consequences, whatever they may be, are to be admitted—where doubtful, it is fairly triable by its consequences.

--James Madison; 1791

Where a meaning is clear

Note that James Madison has not provided us any rules governing the significations/meanings we attach to the words in the Constitution. It appears we are permitted to understand words in their usual and most known significations. But, it also appears that we are allowed to understand them in their unusual and least known significations.

If we were interpreted the term "general welfare", we could attach any of the following definition to the word general.

Comprehending many species or individuals, not special, not particular, lax in signification, not restrained to any special or particular import, not restrained by narrow or distinctive limitations, relating to a whole class or body of men or a whole kind of any being, publick, comprising the whole, having relation to all, extensive though not universal, common, usual. compendious, the whole, the totality, the publick, the interest of the whole or one that has the command over an army.
Perhaps James Madison just assumed that words would be generally understood in their usual and most known signification - not so much regarding the propriety of grammar, as their general and popular use - according the the well established common law rule of construction, as articulated by the Judge in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, which James Madison held in his hands as he helped frame the Constitution.

It flies in the face of convention that they would be so careful to enumerate powers of the federal government, only to throw the doors open with a general welfare clause as you suggest it be interpreted. It is limited government pal. Also, it was normal in that time, to use general welfare in regards to the military.
 
Most of our federal budget is NOT covered under the specific enumerated powers within the Constitution.
Name all of the things in our federal budget that you believe are not covered under the specific enumerated powers within the Constitution.

the nanny state
Americans love the nanny state, dude.

Social Security
Your team lost the battle over the Constitutionality of Social Security in 1937, dude.

__________________________________________________________________________

The Supreme Court Cases​

Three Social Security cases made their way to the Supreme Court during its October 1936 term. One challenged the old-age insurance program (Helvering vs. Davis) and two challenged the unemployment compensation program of the Social Security Act. The Court would issue rulings on all three on the same day.

Helvering vs. Davis:

George P. Davis was a minor stockholder in the Edison Electric Illuminating Company. Edison, like every industrial employer in the nation, was readying itself to start paying the employers' share of the payroll tax in January 1937. Mr. Davis objected to this arguing that by making this expenditure Edison was robbing him of part of his equity, so he sued Edison to prevent their compliance with the Social Security Act. The government intervened on Edison's behalf and the Commissioner of the IRS (Mr. Helvering) took on the lawsuit.

The attorneys for Davis argued that the payroll tax was a new type of tax not listed in the Constitution's tally of taxes, and so it was unconstitutional. At one point they even introduced into their argument the definitions of "taxes" from dictionaries in 1788 (the year before the Constitution was ratified) to prove how earnest they were in the belief that powers not explicitly granted in 1789 could not be created in 1935. Davis was also of the view that providing for the general welfare of the aged was a power reserved to the states. The government argued that this was too inflexible an interpretation of the powers granted to Congress, and (loosely) that if the country could not expand the interpretation of the Constitution as it stood in 1789 progress would be impossible and it would still be 1789.

Steward Machine Company:

In the Steward Machine Company case the unemployment compensation provisions of the Act were disputed. The Company dutifully paid its first unemployment tax installment ($46.14) and then sued the government to recover the payment, claiming the Social Security Act was unconstitutional. Steward made the same as points as Davis about the meaning of the word "tax," and argued in addition that the unemployment compensation program could not qualify as "providing for the general welfare."

Carmichael vs. Southern Coal & Coke Co. and Gulf States Paper:

This was also a case disputing the validity of the unemployment compensation program. In this variation the companies were challenging the state portion of the federal/state arrangement. Unwilling to pay their share of state unemployment compensation taxes the two companies sued the state of Alabama declaring that it was the Social Security Act, which they deemed unconstitutional, that gave Alabama its authority to tax them in this way and since they believed the Act to be invalid, they did not have to pay the tax. Alabama differed. It was again the same issues as in the two prior cases.

Mr. Justice Cardozo for the Court​

On May 24, 1937 the Supreme Court handed down its decision in the three cases. Justice Cardozo wrote the majority opinion in the first two cases and he announced them on what was, coincidentally, his 67th birthday. (See sidebar on Justice Cardozo.)

Mirroring the situation in Congress when the legislation was considered, the old-age insurance program met relatively little disagreement. The Court ruled 7 to 2 in support of the old-age insurance program. And even though two Justices disagreed with the decision, no separate dissents were authored. The unemployment compensation provisions, by contrast, were hotly disputed within the Court, just as they had been the focus of most of the debate in Congress. The Court ruled 5 to 4 in support of the unemployment compensation provisions, and three of the Justices felt compelled to author separate dissents in the Steward Machine case and one Justice did so in the Southern Coal & Coke case.

Justice Cardozo wrote the opinions in Helvering vs. Davis and Steward Machine. After giving the 1788 dictionary the consideration he thought it deserved, he made clear the Court's view on the scope of the government's spending authority: "There have been statesman in our history who have stood for other views. . .We will not resurrect the contest. It is now settled by decision. The conception of the spending power advocated by Hamilton . . .has prevailed over that of Madison. . ." Arguing that the unemployment compensation program provided for the general welfare, Cardozo observed: ". . .there is need to remind ourselves of facts as to the problem of unemployment that are now matters of common knowledge. . .the roll of the unemployed, itself formidable enough, was only a partial roll of the destitute or needy. The fact developed quickly that the states were unable to give the requisite relief. The problem had become national in area and dimensions. There was need of help from the nation if the people were not to starve. It is too late today for the argument to be heard with tolerance that in a crisis so extreme the use of the moneys of the nation to relieve the unemployed and their dependents is a use for any purpose [other] than the promotion of the general welfare."

And finally, he extended the reasoning to the old-age insurance program: "The purge of nation-wide calamity that began in 1929 has taught us many lessons. . . Spreading from state to state, unemployment is an ill not particular but general, which may be checked, if Congress so determines, by the resources of the nation. . . But the ill is all one or at least not greatly different whether men are thrown out of work because there is no longer work to do or because the disabilities of age make them incapable of doing it. Rescue becomes necessary irrespective of the cause. The hope behind this statute is to save men and women from the rigors of the poor house as well as from the haunting fear that such a lot awaits them when journey's end is near."

With these cases decided, Justice Stone could then dispose of the third case in short order. "Together the two statutes now before us embody a cooperative legislative effort by state and national governments, for carrying out a public purpose common to both, which neither could fully achieve without the cooperation of the other. The Constitution does not prohibit such cooperation."

Social Security Online
 
Use of the moneys of the nation to relieve the unemployed..is a use for... the promotion of the general welfare.

--U. S. Supreme Court; 1937
 
Use of the moneys of the nation to relieve the unemployed..is a use for... the promotion of the general welfare.

--U. S. Supreme Court; 1937

A liberal interpretation of the Constitution, it happens. Specifically pressured by an economic crisis that had recently been experienced. Similiar to allowing searches without a warrant under the Patriot Act.
 
The line between one welfare and another, between particular and general cannot be known through a formula in advance of the event. There is a middle ground in which discretion is at large. The discretion, however, is not confided to the courts. The discretion belongs to Congress.

Helvering v. Davis, 301 U.S. 619 (1937)
 
The line between one welfare and another, between particular and general cannot be known through a formula in advance of the event. There is a middle ground in which discretion is at large. The discretion, however, is not confided to the courts. The discretion belongs to Congress.

Helvering v. Davis, 301 U.S. 619 (1937)

Wow, really going for the straw grasping now!

Congress does not now, nor has it ever, ruled on the meaning and interpretation of the Constitution.
 
James Madison's Second Rule of Constitutional Interpretation

Where a meaning is clear, the consequences, whatever they may be, are to be admitted—where doubtful, it is fairly triable by its consequences.

--James Madison; 1791

Where a meaning is clear

Note that James Madison has not provided us any rules governing the significations/meanings we attach to the words in the Constitution. It appears we are permitted to understand words in their usual and most known significations. But, it also appears that we are allowed to understand them in their unusual and least known significations.

If we were interpreted the term "general welfare", we could attach any of the following definition to the word general.

Comprehending many species or individuals, not special, not particular, lax in signification, not restrained to any special or particular import, not restrained by narrow or distinctive limitations, relating to a whole class or body of men or a whole kind of any being, publick, comprising the whole, having relation to all, extensive though not universal, common, usual. compendious, the whole, the totality, the publick, the interest of the whole or one that has the command over an army.
Perhaps James Madison just assumed that words would be generally understood in their usual and most known signification - not so much regarding the propriety of grammar, as their general and popular use - according the the well established common law rule of construction, as articulated by the Judge in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, which James Madison held in his hands as he helped frame the Constitution.

Why would they be so careful to enumerate, in Article 1 Section 9, limits to the power of the federal government, if it didn't have general power in the first place?



The prohibition against suspending the privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, implies the power to suspend all privileges.

The prohibition against laying a Tax or Duty on Articles exported from any State, implies that the federal government has general power over Articles exported from any State.

The prohibition against giving preference by Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the ports of one State over those of another, implies general power over commerce and revenue in all ports.

The prohibition against imposing duties on a vessel bound to or from a state, implies general power over all vessel bound to or from a state.​
 
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All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States

Notice.. not all powers except what is listed... It is quite evident, except to a statist moron, that the government was not set up with all power up front to only lay out a few "buts" later... specific powers were granted via the constitution... even if liberal interpretation tries to grasp more power all the time
 
15th post
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States
Congress was granted power to tax and spend to provide for the public welfare of the nation.

Since when?
1788.

That wording is not in the Constitution.
It's a just interpretation of the provision that says,

Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.​
 
The causes which produced the Constitution were an imperfect union, want of public and private confidence, internal commotions, a defenceless community, neglect of the public welfare, and danger to our liberties.

--Elbridge Gerry; 1791
 

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