What an asinine statement. You know damn well that it is utterly false.
We survive with higher wages because we produce a better and grater product. The point is that when you inflate those wages past a reasonable point, make it difficult to fire those that DO NOT earn those wages, impossible to promote those that are earning more than those wages and encourage the workforce to do as little as possible the advantages go out the window. Couple that with bloated and unreasonable regulations already inflating the cost of doing business here and you have the perfect stick to chase companies and jobs away from the US to other nations that do not have those cost inflating measures in place.
In a nonunion shop, you are NOT going to hear the words that is not my job but I work with union members on a daily basis and I hear that multiple times a day. We will have a crew of 6 people standing around doing nothing because a single screw needs to be removed but removing that screw is not their job. No one ever points out that they are capable of accomplishing that task. Capability is not the issue what is written in some bullshit job description seems to be the only thing that matters and god forbid if that screw was not specifically mentioned.
On that same token, I work with people that will never see a promotion that more than deserve it for asinine seniority rules that ensure the best person for the job is NOT the one that is promoted.
It is a worthless straw man when people start demanding that the opposition wants to see wages here that match those in China or Thailand. No one wants that BUT there is a clear and strong argument against the ADDITIONAL costs that we add but do not do anything at all to increase worker compensation but rather only stifle productivity. Productivity that is REQUIRED to compensate for the fact that we higher wages.
Wow. Things like that are easy to say but without specifics how can anyone reply to exactly what point you're trying to make? You're arguments are way too broad.
It's like saying you're against unecessary spending. Hell, EVERYONE is against unecessary spending. Try and put together a coherent argument and get back to me.
I did put one together. Just because you want to ignore reality and make worthless accusations like wanting people here to earn a slave wage does not negate that fact. You try and come of from the high road but dont forget that it was YOU that started making asinine claims about what others want.
I cant because no one can. I just got dine explaining the basics of that to you but you are WAY to fixated on the idea that a wage should be something that is somehow defined. Its not. Labor being a commodity, what defines a proper wage is that which the market for that labor can bear. IT is based on the availability and demand. There is a reason that fast food workers make so little. The labor is WIDELY available. Anyone can do the job with almost zero training. In fact, the only real training that is required is because of bloated government regulations and corporate bureaucracy that comes with larger institutions. The major supplied is extremely plentiful. Couple that with the fact that there is very little demand for that labor (if prices increase most will simply go to a decent restaurant instead) the cost of that labor is very small. Changing that cost by the way is irrelevant because the value stays the same.
In the end, increasing those costs does nothing more than eliminate jobs (as already outlined in the example given) or removes the industry entirely from the US.
Also, if you are unable to see the rampant and insane government regulatory measures that are all around us then you are simply blind. You want specifics? I can offer TONS. Why dont we start with the daycare that I own? Rather than simply ensuring that the environment is safe (something that the government does not even do) they instead regulate ridiculous things.
How you wipe a childs ass is regulated (yes there is an actual regulation on wiping an ass)
The type of toys that you have. You are required a certain number of nesting, stacking puzzle and peg toys to name a few. This is asinine to the extreme considering that the amount that you have or activities that you do is completely overlooked to fill a check box on an inspection sheet. IOW, you could be completely lacking a proper environment BUT as long as you fill the check boxes, you are fine.
How the children are saved lunch (they are required to spoon out the portion themselves and god forbid that they dont actually want it because you can get written up for that)
Dangerous practices that are required like washing FOOD WITH A BLEACH SOLUTION. Yes, we were required to put bleach on vegetables.
The temperature that comes out of the faucet is regulated as well as though that were a major safety concern. This gets particularly harry because the temps are essentially impossible to come up with as the bathroom has a max and the kitchen has a min.
Thats just a few but lets move on to the aerospace maintenance industry where:
The type of carpet that is installed is regulated. Really, what safety measure does CARPETING cover?
The stands that we use are required to have open and closing doors. The previous requirement of railings apparently was not sufficient. This one is costing the government hundreds of millions right now.
Permit paperwork for entry into confined spaces takes up more time than many of the actual jobs take up meaning that a three man crew (required by other regulations for such a task) waits longer to fill out paperwork than actual productive time. Add to that the fact that confined space is so ill defined that a three man crew is required to change something that you are not even entering such a space and you have a massive waste of resources.
Requirements for fall protection gear when enclosed in a stand that has full safety railing and zero chance for falling. Really asinine because it actually CREATES a hazard as you are dealing with lines all over the damn place that dont need to be there.
More fall protection required when working in areas that do not have any reasonable falling hazard since they are so large but because they are 30 feet off the ground it is required anyway.
Have you ever dealt with a LOTO program? Any industrial area (at least in maintenance) requires this program. That means that you need to set up an entire training program, train your employees, provide the equipment and the proper stations/markings for this even if there is ZERO need for LOTO. In the several places that I have had to deal with the program, I have yet to see a single need for it. It was designed for a completely different environment but, because regulations are usually poorly written, we have had to maintain one.
I could go on but lets go into some others. Construction is rather fun:
There are requirements for the number and placement of screws in steel track and stud framing. Asinine because those screws do NOTHING structurally. They exist solely to keep the stud in place as you are placing the drywall in place as THAT is what provides the integrity (along with joint compound) for the basic walls.
Speaking of that, because you are regulated for the screws in your studs, you need a screw inspection that can hold entire projects in place until the inspector comes out and gives you the stamp.
Same thing goes for the drywall. There is a required screw inspection for that as well. Even in firewalls that are sheetrocked twice there are screw inspections required for the first layer. That is asinine considering the screws are going in that layer from the second. Because it is a box on an inspection list though, it needs to be accomplished.
Everything from the height of plugs and switches to the number of screws is regulated. 90 percent of that has NOTHING to do with safety or structural integrity.
There are more. Hundreds of thousands more but why bother. The asinine regulations that need to be eliminated are EVERYWHERE and if you choose not to see them then you are never going to see them. The government does not need to be getting involved in end product or its quality. The only place it belongs in is health and safety. Most regs have nothing but the most tenuous connection there though.
(I call bullshit. I've worked in a union shop for more than 30 years and have yet to see anything close to what you describe. When you have a resonable "un-straw man" argument please state it.)
It was a reasonable statement. I also never stated that all unions were destructive nor did I state that they all needed to be removed. Unions go out as they become disruptive and bring down an industry. Just because YOUR union shop does not operate like that does not mean that other union shops are not in that boat. I would guess that you do not operate in a government union shop. That would explain a lot, particularly considering that this thread is on a government union. There are stark differences in the two.
I would also venture a guess that your union is not one of the ones that captures an entire industry. That is another stark difference in many unions that are constructive vs. destructive.
(I work in a union shop and people have to apply and interview for EVERY promotion. And more often than not it is not the senior person who gets the job.)
Again, meaningless. Discount those parts that deal with union shops I have personally worked with if you dont want to deal with those problems but that does nothing to address the meat of my statements mainly in the first portion. The following statements were simply specific things that cause unions to be destructive. You asked for specifics in regulatory instances and I have now given some. Those were simply the same for unions. Just because some unions have practices that are destructive does not mean they all do in the same manner that not all regulations are not destructive.
