Veganism and health.

[BothWings]

There are no proven health benefits from veganism.

I think a combination of Mediterranean and Paleo is right for me.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Genesis 9:3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you; just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you all things.
Vegan and carnivore.
If you don't believe that, then what does all things mean to you?

God was the first one to kill an earthly animal. God sat at the campfire and ate stew with Abraham. Jesus told the disciples where to throw their nets to catch fish, not to cease from catching fish. He cooked fish for the disciples. He ate fish in front of them.
Was He wrong to do so?
If you are relying on Mosaic Law for your menu, we are under a better covenant. Jesus said it's ok to eat fish and proved it by eating it Himself.

Typical Protestant arguments to justify what God clearly said not to do

This has been answered ENDLESSLY.

This is what God meant when He spoke thru Jeremiah, "the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked. Who can know it!"

I will probably go through each of your points a little later. But to be honest, this wearies me right now. Same arguments over and over and over.

 

[Woodznutz]

Yes, you ARE defiled when you understand a TRUTH but violate your conscience

There's the nub of it. Christians who eat meat don't consider abstaining from it a "truth" and therefore have a clear conscience about it.

 

[Woodznutz]

Typical Protestant arguments to justify what God clearly said not to do

This has been answered ENDLESSLY.

This is what God meant when He spoke thru Jeremiah, "the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked. Who can know it!"

I will probably go through each of your points a little later. But to be honest, this wearies me right now. Same arguments over and over and over.

That door swings both ways.

 

[Woodznutz]

*Passage #01 — Luke 22:7-8 does indeed have Jesus telling his disciples to prepare the Passover meal, and yet interestingly enough it never once has him telling them to obtain, cook or serve a Passover lamb therewith. Indeed, if we read the telling of the tale of the Last Supper, this lamb is completely missing from the story! In fact, there are no scripture passages in the entire Bible where Jesus himself actually ate lamb, which he would most assuredly have eaten at Passover — had he not been vegan. In fact, in the Bible we see Jesus eating on the Passover exactly twice, and curiously enough neither time is lamb involved at all; with Jesus and the disciples instead partaking only of unleavened bread at those celebrations.

Jesus and the disciples ate lamb at the 'last supper'. Jesus didn't change the Passover symbols to bread and wine until they had finished the traditional Passover meal.

Old covenant symbol: Lamb
New covenant symbol: bread and wine

The old covenant symbol wouldn't be complete until the death of Jesus, therefore it was kept at the last supper.

 

[buttercup]

This has been answered ENDLESSLY.

....

I will probably go through each of your points a little later. But to be honest, this wearies me right now. Same arguments over and over and over.

Yes, the same arguments have been answered endlessly. I'm starting to think that when people make certain statements as if they were facts when they're not even in the Bible AND things we've gone over tons and tons of times already on other threads… I'm starting to think that there's a demonic aspect to that behavior.

It's bizarre, arrogant and weird. And there is ZERO desire to honor God's perfect will, which as we've gone over countless times, is clearly stated in both the beginning and the end, and throughout the scriptures. LOVE. MERCY. PEACE AND HARMONY among all creation. Not selfishness, callousness, violence, exploitation and needless killing.

On earth as it is in Heaven!



I too am so tired of going through the same arguments over and over. That's why I haven't replied to this thread recently. But I just wanted to chime in right now to agree with that.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I didn't bother to go thru page after page of this thread. I read something that wasn't Biblical on the last page up and said so. Nothing demonic about it, Buttercup. Nothing wicked about it, Carl.

Vegan or not is a personal dietary choice. As for your diet affecting the temple, it does not. When Christ says to listen and understand, and then says to listen and understand again, it's time to listen and understand.
Christ said this:
Nothing you put in your mouth defiles the temple. It is what comes out of our mouths that defiles the temple.
Why do you have a problem understanding that statement that Christ tried to drive home? It means what it says, and it didn't come from some dietician or book publisher. It is what comes out of our vindictive mouths that defiles the temple, not what you eat, according to Christ.

This is what God said about what to put in your mouth. Vegan or carnivore, God said He gave us both to eat, plants, and everything that moves:
Gen, 9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; I give you everything, as I gave you the green plants and vegetables.
^
Did God just tell Noah to defile his temple?

 

[Woodznutz]

Yes, the same arguments have been answered endlessly. I'm starting to think that when people make certain statements as if they were facts when they're not even in the Bible AND things we've gone over tons and tons of times already on other threads… I'm starting to think that there's a demonic aspect to that behavior.

It's bizarre, arrogant and weird. And there is ZERO desire to honor God's perfect will, which as we've gone over countless times, is clearly stated in both the beginning and the end, and throughout the scriptures. LOVE. MERCY. PEACE AND HARMONY among all creation. Not selfishness, callousness, violence, exploitation and needless killing.

On earth as it is in Heaven!



I too am so tired of going through the same arguments over and over. That's why I haven't replied to this thread recently. But I just wanted to chime in right now to agree with that.

If your ministry is to promote veganism present your case and leave it at that. Don't argue, judge or condemn those who disagree with you. We are not to allow ourselves to be judged on these things.

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[buttercup]

I didn't bother to go thru page after page of this thread. I read something that wasn't Biblical on the last page up and said so. Nothing demonic about it Buttercup. Nothing wicked about in Carl.

Vegan or not is a personal dietary choice. As for your diet affecting the temple, it does not. When Christ says to listen and understand, and then says to listen and understand again, it's time to listen and understand.
Christ said this:
Nothing you put in your mouth defiles the temple. It is what comes out of our mouths that defiles the temple.
Why do you have a problem understanding that statement that Christ tried to drive home? It means what it says, and it didn't come from some dietician or book publisher. It is what comes out of our vindictive mouths that defiles the temple, not what you eat.

This is what God said about what to put in your mouth. Vegan or carnivore, God said He gave us both to eat, plants, and everything that moves.

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; I give you everything, as I gave you the green plants and vegetables.
^
Did God just tell Noah to defile his temple?

As Carl already went over, that is not what that verse is about. The context has nothing to do with what kinds of foods are being eaten, it has to do with the tradition of washing hands before eating.

Jesus was responding to the Pharisees accusing his disciples of being defiled because they ate with unwashed hands. There was never a divine instruction to wash hands before eating, but the Pharisees practiced hand washing before meals because it was a tradition of their elders.

Jesus was not permitting animal cruelty or saying anything about what should or should not be eaten. He was commenting on the man-made tradition of washing hands before eating. He used the opportunity to teach about the importance of having our heart set first and foremost on following God rather than on keeping human traditions.

In Matthew 15:20 Jesus made it clear that He was talking specifically about handwashing, not the kinds of food being eaten:

“These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”​

There were still plenty of food prohibitions among His followers after Jesus made this statement. For example, the Book of Acts says to stay away from consuming the flesh of strangled animals, from blood, and from food offered to idols:

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. (Acts 15:29)​

And in Revelation 2:20 it says false teachings mislead the church into eating food offered to idols:

“Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols”​

It's also a false idea that Jesus declared "all foods clean." We've gone over this numerous times on other threads. What the modern mainstream Church bases that on is a comment ADDED to the scriptures, by a translator.

Let's look at the Matthew 15 passage again. I'm going to highlight the pertinent part for what I'm about to say:

But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and those things defile the person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, acts of adultery, other immoral sexual acts, thefts, false testimonies, and slanderous statements. 20 These are the things that defile the person; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the person.”​

Even though that Matthew passage had nothing to do with which kinds of food are acceptable to eat, let’s assume for the sake of argument that we can derive an underlying principle from that exchange to base our dietary decisions on. What logical conclusion would that lead us to? God says to do everything in love and if one claims to obey God but one's actions and attitude toward animals suggest anything but love, then what is coming out of that person's mouth are hypocritical lies, and it is those lies that defile you.

Since God is love, we should be very careful not to forsake love in favor of violence (Proverbs 3:31) or serving the desires of the flesh. (Galatians 5:17)

Instead of loving the bloodthirsty appetites of the flesh, we are commanded to love mercy: “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8)

As for the other stuff you brought up, I'll try to get back to this thread later....But again, we've been over all of these arguments over and over, on numerous threads. Maybe you haven't participated in those threads, so I don't mind going over it again with someone who hasn't read those threads.

But the bottom line is this: God's perfect will is stated very clearly in the beginning (Genesis 1:29-30) and in the end (Isaiah 11:6-9)... Everything in between is this fallen world, and NOT God's perfect will.

As Christians, we are taught to want to honor God's PERFECT will, on earth as it is in Heaven. (see the video in my previous post.) In Heaven there is no cruelty, exploitation, selfishness, violence and killing.

Please ask yourself this question, but I hope you really think about it: When you have the choice between mercy OR contributing to abuse, suffering and brutal killing.....why choose the latter, when it's completely unnecessary? Why go against what God commands us to do, throughout the Bible, choose MERCY? God said "BLESSED are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy."

___

ETA: I want to state that some of what I posted above was pasted with permission from a teaching on this topic from a friend of mine who has a Master’s degree in Religious Studies with a focus on first century Christianity.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Did God just tell Noah to defile his temple?

Right now I'll answer this one question.

Noah and his family JUST landed in dry ground.

Tell me this: where are the farms? Where are the crops? Where are the orchards?
The earth has been COVERED for months. What is there to eat?

God gave Noah a command that you've decided He also gave you. Why do you assume that He was giving YOU permission? Do you have no other options today? Do you really NEED to take an innocent life?

Maybe the command was for NOAH and his family and not us 4,000 years later

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

You may not know this, but I KNOW your religious background. I sense the spirit.
I also sense that you've drifted away.

I say this because I KNOW you understand the verse you quoted above. YOU KNOW BETTER.

Paul was addressing the new GENTILE CONVERTS IN COLOSSAE.

These were GENTILES who converted to First Century Christianity

As such, they became SABBATH KEEPERS, HOLY DAY and New Moon observers

Paul was admonishing the new converts to not be bothered by the PAGAN GENTILES who would judge them.

It is NOT as the modern Protestants teach

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Yes, the same arguments have been answered endlessly. I'm starting to think that when people make certain statements as if they were facts when they're not even in the Bible AND things we've gone over tons and tons of times already on other threads… I'm starting to think that there's a demonic aspect to that behavior.

It's bizarre, arrogant and weird. And there is ZERO desire to honor God's perfect will, which as we've gone over countless times, is clearly stated in both the beginning and the end, and throughout the scriptures

If I were an outsider reading these posts, might think Woodznutz is on our side and the three of us plotted this whole thing as he takes on the role of a foil, or a devils advocate.

But I know the truth. Clearly GOD wants this message to get out here so He uses certain individuals to constantly throw out their "arguments" so they can be addressed again and again.

It is not necessary that we win them over, but that they hear the message. Again, the Sower. After that, what they do with the seed is on them, not me or you.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

There's the nub of it. Christians who eat meat don't consider abstaining from it a "truth" and therefore have a clear conscience about it.

Abortionists have a clear conscience about their trade. Means nothing to me

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Jesus and the disciples ate lamb at the 'last supper

Show me the scripture

 

[Woodznutz]

As Carl already went over, that is not what that verse is about. The context has nothing to do with what kinds of foods are being eaten, it has to do with the tradition of washing hands before eating.

Jesus was responding to the Pharisees accusing his disciples of being defiled because they ate with unwashed hands. There was never a divine instruction to wash hands before eating, but the Pharisees practiced hand washing before meals because it was a tradition of their elders.

Jesus was not permitting animal cruelty or saying anything about what should or should not be eaten. He was commenting on the man-made tradition of washing hands before eating. He used the opportunity to teach about the importance of having our heart set first and foremost on following God rather than on keeping human traditions.

In Matthew 15:20 Jesus made it clear that He was talking specifically about handwashing, not the kinds of food being eaten:

“These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”​

There were still plenty of food prohibitions among His followers after Jesus made this statement. For example, the Book of Acts says to stay away from consuming the flesh of strangled animals, from blood, and from food offered to idols:

You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. (Acts 15:29)​

And in Revelation 2:20 it says false teachings mislead the church into eating food offered to idols:

“Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols”​

It's also a false idea that Jesus declared "all foods clean." We've gone over this numerous times on other threads. What the modern mainstream Church bases that on is a comment ADDED to the scriptures, by a translator.

Let's look at the Matthew 15 passage again. I'm going to highlight the pertinent part for what I'm about to say:

But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and those things defile the person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, acts of adultery, other immoral sexual acts, thefts, false testimonies, and slanderous statements. 20 These are the things that defile the person; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the person.”​

Even though that Matthew passage had nothing to do with which kinds of food are acceptable to eat, let’s assume for the sake of argument that we can derive an underlying principle from that exchange to base our dietary decisions on. What logical conclusion would that lead us to? God says to do everything in love and if one claims to obey God but one's actions and attitude toward animals suggest anything but love, then what is coming out of that person's mouth are hypocritical lies, and it is those lies that defile you.

Since God is love, we should be very careful not to forsake love in favor of violence (Proverbs 3:31) or serving the desires of the flesh. (Galatians 5:17)

Instead of loving the bloodthirsty appetites of the flesh, we are commanded to love mercy: “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God” (Micah 6:8)

As for the other stuff you brought up, I'll try to get back to this thread later....But again, we've been over all of these arguments over and over, on numerous threads. Maybe you haven't participated in those threads, so I don't mind going over it again with someone who hasn't read those threads.

But the bottom line is this: God's perfect will is stated very clearly in the beginning (Genesis 1:29-30) and in the end (Isaiah 11:6-9)... Everything in between is this fallen world, and NOT God's perfect will.

As Christians, we are taught to want to honor God's PERFECT will, on earth as it is in Heaven. (see the video in my previous post.) In Heaven there is no cruelty, exploitation, selfishness, violence and killing.

Please ask yourself this question, but I hope you really think about it: When you have the choice between mercy OR contributing to abuse, suffering and brutal killing.....why choose the latter, when it's completely unnecessary? Why go against what God commands us to do, throughout the Bible, choose MERCY? God said "BLESSED are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy."

___

ETA: I want to state that some of what I posted above was pasted with permission from a teaching on this topic from a friend of mine who has a Master’s degree in Religious Studies with a focus on first century Christianity.

There are several themes in Matthew 15 including feeding the multitude with bread and fish.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

There are several themes in Matthew 15 including feeding the multitude with bread and fish.

Here you go again. What motivates you? I seriously ask this

 

[buttercup]

There are several themes in Matthew 15 including feeding the multitude with bread and fish.

Do you honestly not remember the last few times we went through this same point? I'll reply again though, for the sake of people reading who may not have read those threads.

When Jesus Himself recalled that incident He makes no mention of fish at all, just loaves. (Matthew 16:8-10) And there are other scriptures too, where Jesus only speaks about the loaves, not fish.

Also, several early Church fathers when writing about that incident made no mention of fish at all, only loaves.

Including:

Arnobius (Against the Heathen 1.46)
Eusibius (Demonstratio Evangelica 3.4)
Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book II)
Clement of Alexandria (Stromata)
Cyril of Jerusalem (Catecheses 13)

....and more.

Since Jesus Himself and several early Church sources only mentioned the loaves, not fish, when speaking about that incident, some scholars believe that the earliest manuscripts did not include fish, only loaves, and the mention of fish was a later interpolation. We don't have the very earliest manuscripts of the Bible. But these early Christian writers would have been reading older versions of the manuscripts that are no longer preserved.

Also, another important point that I think many Christians may not be aware of is this... The type of bread used in this miracle was Barley loaves (as you can read about in John 6) and it specifically says in John 6:14 that the people perceived this miracle as a sign about who Jesus was.

But why did they see it as a sign?

Let's read the Miracle of Elisha, from 2 Kings 4:42-44. ( I'm going to bold some parts that I don't want to be missed)

​

Now a man came from Baal-shalishah, and brought the man of God bread of the first fruits, twenty loaves of barley and fresh grain in his sack. And Elisha said, “Give them to the people that they may eat.” 43 But his attendant said, “How am I to serve this to a hundred men?” Nevertheless he said, “Give them to the people that they may eat, for this is what the Lord says: ‘They shall eat and have some left over.’” 44 So he served it to them, and they ate and had some left over, in accordance with the word of the Lord.​

As you can see in the above passage, there are many similarities, so I think this is compelling evidence that Jesus was replicating the miracle of Elisha. And Elisha's miracle was a prophetic foreshadowing of Jesus' multiplication miracle, as a sign of His divinity.

Notice that in the Miracle of Elisha it was only loaves of barley and fresh grain, no fish.

The week of Passover is the Barley Harvest. So since Jesus' miracle of multiplication took place around that time, it makes sense that Jesus miracle was like Elisha's miracle, which was loaves of barley and fresh grain.

Getting back to John 6:14, the people who saw the miracle recognized it as a sign, because they would have known about the miracle of Elisha.

 

[buttercup]

Show me the scripture

He's doing what he does often, adding to the text. As I've said to him at least a thousand times, JESUS HIMSELF was the spotless lamb of God. He didn't eat the lamb, He offered HIMSELF as the lamb, as the once and for all sacrifice. (which was supposed to end all animal sacrifice btw.)

It is truly mind-boggling to me that anyone could think the Good Shepherd, who lays His life down for the sheep, would butcher and eat an innocent lamb. Not only does that go against the very nature of God, but it goes against God's original and ultimate design and intent. AND, flesh eating has a demonic origin... as stated in the Book of Enoch.

 

[Concerned American]

I too am so tired of going through the same arguments over and over. That's why I haven't replied to this thread recently.

Yet here you are, once again trying to exhibit faux superiority because of your dietary choices. LMAO.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Do you honestly not remember the last few times we went through this same point? I'll reply again though, for the sake of people reading who may not have read those threads.

When Jesus Himself recalled that incident He makes no mention of fish at all, just loaves. (Matthew 16:8-10) And there are other scriptures too, where Jesus only speaks about the loaves, not fish.

Also, several early Church fathers when writing about that incident made no mention of fish at all, only loaves.

Including:

Arnobius (Against the Heathen 1.46)
Eusibius (Demonstratio Evangelica 3.4)
Irenaeus (Against Heresies Book II)
Clement of Alexandria (Stromata)
Cyril of Jerusalem (Catecheses 13)

....and more.

Since Jesus Himself and several early Church sources only mentioned the loaves, not fish, when speaking about that incident, some scholars believe that the earliest manuscripts did not include fish, only loaves, and the mention of fish was a later interpolation. We don't have the very earliest manuscripts of the Bible. But these early Christian writers would have been reading older versions of the manuscripts that are no longer preserved.

Also, another important point that I think many Christians may not be aware of is this... The type of bread used in this miracle was Barley loaves (as you can read about in John 6) and it specifically says in John 6:14 that the people perceived this miracle as a sign about who Jesus was.

But why did they see it as a sign?

Let's read the Miracle of Elisha, from 2 Kings 4:42-44. ( I'm going to bold some parts that I don't want to be missed)

​

Now a man came from Baal-shalishah, and brought the man of God bread of the first fruits, twenty loaves of barley and fresh grain in his sack. And Elisha said, “Give them to the people that they may eat.” 43 But his attendant said, “How am I to serve this to a hundred men?” Nevertheless he said, “Give them to the people that they may eat, for this is what the Lord says: ‘They shall eat and have some left over.’” 44 So he served it to them, and they ate and had some left over, in accordance with the word of the Lord.​

As you can see in the above passage, there are many similarities, so I think this is compelling evidence that Jesus was replicating the miracle of Elisha. And Elisha's miracle was a prophetic foreshadowing of Jesus' multiplication miracle, as a sign of His divinity.

Notice that in the Miracle of Elisha it was only loaves of barley and fresh grain, no fish.

The week of Passover is the Barley Harvest. So since Jesus' miracle of multiplication took place around that time, it makes sense that Jesus miracle was like Elisha's miracle, which was loaves of barley and fresh grain.

Getting back to John 6:14, the people who saw the miracle recognized it as a sign, because they would have known about the miracle of Elisha.

This is new to me. Thank you for the insight. You know this topic thoroughly. I wish all honest people hungered for TRUTH over their "traditions"