Veganism and health.

[Woodznutz]

You did exactly what I thought you would do, based on going through this with you a guhzillion times. You ignore everything, and just keep repeating the same things. Carl was absolutely right when he said that is your pattern on this topic.

I'm not interested in going around in circles. You are choosing this fallen world over God's true intent for all creation. Period. That's on you.

You and Carl keep bringing it up, and I keep responding to it. I can't just let you two get away with it. Isn't that what these forums are about?

 

[Woodznutz]

You are choosing this fallen world over God's true intent for all creation. Period. That's on you.

Do you have products made with near slave labor? I eat the final product of the meat industry. I have no control over how it is managed. If up to me it would be much different, in fact many things would be different. I'm not in tune with "the world" in any meaningful way.

 

[buttercup]

The Jews were instructed to sacrifice animals, some to be eaten by the Priests and the person that supplied the animal. Some not to be eaten.

Animal sacrifice was not God's idea. It was a practice that was already taken place in many parts of the world, and it has pagan origins. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt.

The Israelites, when they came out of Egypt, wanted to continue eating flesh. Remember that God gave them manna, but they complained and angered God? And I'm sure you remember the passage about how God gave them what they wanted, until it came out of their nostrils.... and then He struck them down with a severe plague and they died. The place where they died, Kibroth Hattaavah, literally means "The grave of craving."

Before I get to what you said, please read the following verses. Please don't skim over them, but really read them:

Hosea 6:6​

​

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,​

And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.​

Jeremiah 7:22-24​

​

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.​

​

Psalm 40:6​

​

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;​

My ears You have opened.​

Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.​

​

​

Psalm 51:16-17​

​

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;​

You do not delight in burnt offering.​

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,​

A broken and a contrite heart—​

These, O God, You will not despise.​

​

​

Proverbs 21:3​

​

To do righteousness and justice​

Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.​

​

​

1 Samuel 15:22​

​

But Samuel replied:​

​

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices​

as much as in obeying the Lord?​

To obey is better than sacrifice,​

and to heed is better than the fat of rams.​

​

​

Isaiah 1:11-17​

​

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”​

Says the Lord.​

“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams​

And the fat of fed cattle.​

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,​

Or of lambs or goats.​

“When you come to appear before Me,​

Who has required this from your hand,​

To trample My courts?​

Bring no more futile sacrifices;​

Incense is an abomination to Me.​

​

The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—​

I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.​

Your New Moons and your appointed feasts​

My soul hates;​

They are a trouble to Me,​

I am weary of bearing them.​

​

When you spread out your hands,​

I will hide My eyes from you;​

Even though you make many prayers,​

I will not hear.​

Your hands are full of blood.​

​

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;​

Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.​

Cease to do evil,​

Learn to do good;​

Seek justice,​

Rebuke the oppressor;​

Defend the fatherless,​

Plead for the widow.​

​

​

Micah 6:8​

​

He has shown you, O man, what is good;​

And what does the Lord require of you​

But to do justly,​

To love mercy,​

And to walk humbly with your God?​

So as you can see, God wants MERCY, not sacrifice. Now getting to what you said, there are a couple different views on animal sacrifices, from a Christian vegan perspective.

One view is that since animal sacrifices were already taking place, but were being offered to false gods, God "met us where we're at" with the intent of weaning His people off of animal sacrifice. He did that in two parts. The first part was to stop people from offering sacrifices to false gods. And to set up specific rules about what was already taking place. (Similar to what was done with slavery...which is also not what God wanted in the first place.)

And the second part was to end animal sacrifice altogether, through the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus who offered Himself, as the spotless Lamb of God.

Jesus sacrifice was supposed to put an end to all animal sacrifice. But of course mankind is selfish and continues to do what they want to do.

Another view, which is much more controversial, is that as it states in Jeremiah the "lying scribes" changed and added to God's word, because they simply wanted to continue sacrificing animals. Not only because they wanted to eat flesh, but because the animal sacrifice system was hugely profitable.

In fact, I created a thread yesterday that touched on that topic. You can read it here, if you haven't already:

Zone1 Thread 'There's more to Jesus' "turning over the tables" incident than people realize'

May 3, 2025

One of the few times Jesus displayed righteous anger was when He famously turned over the tables in the Temple, an incident written about in all the Gospels... Also known as the Cleansing of the Temple.

Here's the passage, in Matthew 21:

And Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all those who were selling and buying on the temple grounds, and He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13 And He *said to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer’; but you are making it a den of robbers.”​

When Jesus...

• buttercup
• Replies: 71
• Forum: Religion and Ethics

• 
• 

There's more to be said about this, but once again this is getting lengthy. Maybe Carl in Michigan can chime in, but I will try to come back later.

 

[buttercup]

You and Carl keep bringing it up, and I keep responding to it. I can't just let you two get away with it. Isn't that what these forums are about?

Did you forget that YOU started this thread?

And you started even another thread on flesh eating too today.

But anyway, I gotta get going. I've been neglecting some IRL things today, because of this forum. I might be back later.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Animal sacrifice was not God's idea. It was a practice that was already taken place in many parts of the world, and it has pagan origins. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt.

The Israelites, when they came out of Egypt, wanted to continue eating flesh. Remember that God gave them manna, but they complained and angered God? And I'm sure you remember the passage about how God gave them what they wanted, until it came out of their nostrils.... and then He struck them down with a severe plague and they died. The place where they died, Kibroth Hattaavah, literally means "The grave of craving."

Before I get to what you said, please read the following verses. Please don't skim over them, but really read them:

Hosea 6:6​

​

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,​

And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.​

Jeremiah 7:22-24​

​

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.​

​

Psalm 40:6​

​

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;​

My ears You have opened.​

Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.​

​

​

Psalm 51:16-17​

​

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;​

You do not delight in burnt offering.​

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,​

A broken and a contrite heart—​

These, O God, You will not despise.​

​

​

Proverbs 21:3​

​

To do righteousness and justice​

Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.​

​

​

1 Samuel 15:22​

​

But Samuel replied:​

​

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices​

as much as in obeying the Lord?​

To obey is better than sacrifice,​

and to heed is better than the fat of rams.​

​

​

Isaiah 1:11-17​

​

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”​

Says the Lord.​

“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams​

And the fat of fed cattle.​

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,​

Or of lambs or goats.​

“When you come to appear before Me,​

Who has required this from your hand,​

To trample My courts?​

Bring no more futile sacrifices;​

Incense is an abomination to Me.​

​

The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—​

I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.​

Your New Moons and your appointed feasts​

My soul hates;​

They are a trouble to Me,​

I am weary of bearing them.​

​

When you spread out your hands,​

I will hide My eyes from you;​

Even though you make many prayers,​

I will not hear.​

Your hands are full of blood.​

​

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;​

Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.​

Cease to do evil,​

Learn to do good;​

Seek justice,​

Rebuke the oppressor;​

Defend the fatherless,​

Plead for the widow.​

​

​

Micah 6:8​

​

He has shown you, O man, what is good;​

And what does the Lord require of you​

But to do justly,​

To love mercy,​

And to walk humbly with your God?​

So as you can see, God wants MERCY, not sacrifice. Now getting to what you said, there are a couple different views on animal sacrifices, from a Christian vegan perspective.

One view is that since animal sacrifices were already taking place, but were being offered to false gods, God "met us where we're at" with the intent of weaning His people off of animal sacrifice. He did that in two parts. The first part was to stop people from offering sacrifices to false gods. And to set up specific rules about what was already taking place. (Similar to what was done with slavery...which is also not what God wanted in the first place.)

And the second part was to end animal sacrifice altogether, through the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus who offered Himself, as the spotless Lamb of God.

Jesus sacrifice was supposed to put an end to all animal sacrifice. But of course mankind is selfish and continues to do what they want to do.

Another view, which is much more controversial, is that as it states in Jeremiah the "lying scribes" changed and added to God's word, because they simply wanted to continue sacrificing animals. Not only because they wanted to eat flesh, but because the animal sacrifice system was hugely profitable.

In fact, I created a thread yesterday that touched on that topic. You can read it here, if you haven't already:

Zone1 Thread 'There's more to Jesus' "turning over the tables" incident than people realize'

May 3, 2025

One of the few times Jesus displayed righteous anger was when He famously turned over the tables in the Temple, an incident written about in all the Gospels... Also known as the Cleansing of the Temple.

Here's the passage, in Matthew 21:

And Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all those who were selling and buying on the temple grounds, and He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13 And He *said to them, “It is written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer’; but you are making it a den of robbers.”​

When Jesus...

• buttercup
• Replies: 71
• Forum: Religion and Ethics

• 
• 

There's more to be said about this, but once again this is getting lengthy. Maybe Carl in Michigan can chime in, but I will try to come back later.

You said everything perfectly. THAT was God speaking through you

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You and Carl keep bringing it up, and I keep responding to it. I can't just let you two get away with it. Isn't that what these forums are about?

I'm not going to wade through your endless posts to find it, but it was YOU who said we shouldn't speak on this topic as a moral issue

It is a part of my being and I WILL occasionally speak on this topic as a moral issue. Your responses on THIS topic are virtually identical to the pro choice response on the abortion topic.
Someday you will understand.

 

[theHawk]

Veganism eschews the natural fertilization of crops using animal manures in favor of chemical fertilizers. These chemicals already have a profound environmental impact, which would be manifold times worse if veganism expands beyond its current numbers.

The Hidden Dangers of Chemical Fertilizers -- Environmental Protection

Because the damage caused by chemical fertilizers is often long-term and cumulative, it may be wiser to consider alternative and sustainable methods of fertilizing the soil.

eponline.com

Veganism is detrimental to your health in the long run. Humans need meat. The human body cannot extract all the minerals and nutrients from plants, only a fraction of it, but it can extract a large amount from meat.


Best way to be “vegan” is to eat vegan animal meat.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Veganism is detrimental to your health in the long run. Humans need meat.

Just dumb.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Soils fertilized with manures hold moisture better than chemically fertilized soils so withstand droughty conditions much better while at the same time providing the nutrients needed by the plants. Soluble chemical fertilizers have no self-control mechanism as does humus.

They both hold moisture the same and we cannot grow as much food or feed as many people with natural manure

Vegans are fools

 

[Soupnazi630]

Just dumb.

Very accurate actually

 

[buttercup]

Just dumb.

I think in most cases it comes from sincere ignorance. I used to think some of the same things they did, in the past.

 

[Woodznutz]

They both hold moisture the same and we cannot grow as much food or feed as many people with natural manure

Sure we can. People just have to eat less, then cattle can mature on grass, which produces healthier meat, and better manure.

Chemical fertilizers destroy humus. Manure builds it.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Sure we can. People just have to eat less, then cattle can mature on grass, which produces healthier meat, and better manure.

Chemical fertilizers destroy humus. Manure builds it.

Nope cannot do it

Chemical fettilizers wortk better and harm no one

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I think in most cases it comes from sincere ignorance. I used to think some of the same things they did, in the past.

There is ignorance then there is willful ignorance. The Parable of the Sower is the better explanation

 

[Soupnazi630]

I think in most cases it comes from sincere ignorance. I used to think some of the same things they did, in the past.

That would be the vegans

 

[Woodznutz]

Nope cannot do it

Chemical fettilizers wortk better and harm no one

Chemical fertilizers may feed the plants, but they destroy the soil.

 

[Soupnazi630]

Chemical fertilizers may feed the plants, but they destroy the soil.

No they reallty dont we have been using them for a long time and the soil is fine

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Us omnivores eat vegans.

Vegans are human vegetation

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

I'm not going to wade through your endless posts to find it, but it was YOU who said we shouldn't speak on this topic as a moral issue

It is a part of my being and I WILL occasionally speak on this topic as a moral issue. Your responses on THIS topic are virtually identical to the pro choice response on the abortion topic.
Someday you will understand.

Our Bluebloods Need Whites to Be Yellow

You should convert to Hinduism. The maharajahs absolute birth-class tyranny forbids the excluded castes from eating meat because carnivores are courageous.

Only the military caste is allowed to eat meat.

 

[Woodznutz]

He needs to imply that vegans are the ones with the drone mindset.

My evolution to this point is not the same as most vegans but I am in agreement with PETA at least 90% on this issue.

This life ends sooner than you can imagine -- for ALL of us. Then we enter ETERNITY.

I made a choice in 1978. That choice took me down paths I didn't know I would go, but I will not leave the path God has set me on

View attachment 1107210

Veganism is not a Christian doctrine, tenet, or teaching. It's a personal choice and should remain so.