Values and morals. WTF???

[Working Man]

I am sure that America isn't the only country where the media, those who define, Chic, in Vougue, etc.,, celebrate a child molestor's accomplishments (M.J), and, yet, at the same time work hard to defame the Boy Scouts of America and their membership.

One entity gets sympathy and acclaim, even after admitting sleeping with children, in a questionable way,,, while the other gets attacked, and maimed, in its ability to help young boys turn out to be great men..

I must be missing something here..



God bless the Scouts, their mission, and their great achievments in this world. (I was never a scout)

 

[jillian]

I don't think anyone is going to say that Michael Jackson made bad music simply because he's a wacko... and he is. Nor would I allow any child of mine to hang out with him.

The fact that, over the years, the scouts have done some good things does not make them immune from discussion about the extremist political policies they seem to have adopted... Same as Michael Jackson having done good music doesn't absolve him from criticism. So I'm not quite sure what your point is other than being ticked off that people don't like the scouts taking the discriminatory positions they do.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I don't think anyone is going to say that Michael Jackson made bad music simply because he's a wacko... and he is. Nor would I allow any child of mine to hang out with him.

The fact that, over the years, the scouts have done some good things does not make them immune from discussion about the extremist political policies they seem to have adopted... Same as Michael Jackson having done good music doesn't absolve him from criticism. So I'm not quite sure what your point is other than being ticked off that people don't like the scouts taking the discriminatory positions they do.

Yes heaven forbid a group with SPECIFIC STATED goals and ideals, designed to work with BOYS and Young Men should actually "GASP" live by those goals and Stated Ideals.

No Girls allowed? Discrimination. No Gays allowed? Discrimination. Be so kind as to show how those positions are "wacko"

Last I checked private organizations are FREE to associate with whom EVER they choose. Or shall I sue some Jewish Organization because it won't let a skinhead Neo Nazi in the group? I assume you think the GIRL Scouts should allow Boys to join?

 

[eots]

I am sure that America isn't the only country where the media, those who define, Chic, in Vougue, etc.,, celebrate a child molestor's accomplishments (M.J), and, yet, at the same time work hard to defame the Boy Scouts of America and their membership.

One entity gets sympathy and acclaim, even after admitting sleeping with children, in a questionable way,,, while the other gets attacked, and maimed, in its ability to help young boys turn out to be great men..

I must be missing something here..


that we are a nation in decline the next... rome...soma city

 

[midcan5]

The difference here is obvious, on the one hand everyone has sinned, on the other hand, discrimination is unacceptable to most Americans. MJ sinned, the Boy Scouts discriminate. America in spite of 'himself,' admires openness and freedom and acceptance. Check out Ellis Island sometime. We are in mind a democracy not an oligarchy.

Excuse my use of religious analogies and metaphors but they often make the point as they are part of America's social vocabulary.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I believe I shall sue the NAACP for discrimination, being white they won't let me join and bea leader.

 

[Larkinn]

Yes heaven forbid a group with SPECIFIC STATED goals and ideals, designed to work with BOYS and Young Men should actually "GASP" live by those goals and Stated Ideals.

Heaven forbid indeed if those stated ideals are discriminatory.

Last I checked private organizations are FREE to associate with whom EVER they choose. Or shall I sue some Jewish Organization because it won't let a skinhead Neo Nazi in the group? I assume you think the GIRL Scouts should allow Boys to join?

Yes and the city of Pittsburgh is free to not give them free housing if they choose to discriminate. I suspect thats what the uproar is about.

 

[Larkinn]

I believe I shall sue the NAACP for discrimination, being white they won't let me join and bea leader.

IT is a job he did not want because he thinks he is unqualified by virtue of his race. Carlton Thomas (Tom) Kissner, [bwho is white, was recently elected president of the Port Chester-Rye Chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People[/b], a post he said he strongly feels should be held by a black person.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9505E2DA123DF931A35756C0A96F958260

Feel free to sue them for discrimination. Maybe you can claim $250 mil and forget to file papers as well.

 

[Shogun]

I went to college with a dude whose summer job was a camp counselor at a jewish summer camp. I never realized there were such a thing. On the surface I thought it odd to segregate like that but they didn't prohibit non-jews, rather, it was geared toward that particular culture. Similarly, while I don't agree with a few of their stances, it seems to me that a private organization should be allowed to dictate it's own membership under the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This reminds me of the hooplah involved with All white or all male private golf clubs being forced to integrate. Personally, I don't agree with the ethnic or gender requirements, or in this case sexuality, of each private organization BUT I don't see how the government should have the power to influence the roster of a private organization. The force behind breaking up the status quo should be market forces instead of government intervention. If the PGA lost ad money because a course in their schedule doesn't allow women or blacks then they will react according to market pressure. It doesn't need affirmative action. If our culture REALLY cared about the plight of the gay scoutmaster they can create an alternative. A white dude still will never be the president of the NAACP. A man will never be the president of any prominent woman organization.

Hell, I loved the scouts as a kid. Regardless, the fact remains that discrimination laws don't include sexuality.


and yes... despite the travesty that is MJ he still made phenominal music.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Heaven forbid indeed if those stated ideals are discriminatory.



Yes and the city of Pittsburgh is free to not give them free housing if they choose to discriminate. I suspect thats what the uproar is about.

Boy Scouts do not rate free housing anyway, so no problem there.

 

[jillian]

I went to college with a dude whose summer job was a camp counselor at a jewish summer camp. I never realized there were such a thing. On the surface I thought it odd to segregate like that but they didn't prohibit non-jews, rather, it was geared toward that particular culture. Similarly, while I don't agree with a few of their stances, it seems to me that a private organization should be allowed to dictate it's own membership under the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This reminds me of the hooplah involved with All white or all male private golf clubs being forced to integrate. Personally, I don't agree with the ethnic or gender requirements, or in this case sexuality, of each private organization BUT I don't see how the government should have the power to influence the roster of a private organization. The force behind breaking up the status quo should be market forces instead of government intervention. If the PGA lost ad money because a course in their schedule doesn't allow women or blacks then they will react according to market pressure. It doesn't need affirmative action. If our culture REALLY cared about the plight of the gay scoutmaster they can create an alternative. A white dude still will never be the president of the NAACP. A man will never be the president of any prominent woman organization.

Hell, I loved the scouts as a kid. Regardless, the fact remains that discrimination laws don't include sexuality.


and yes... despite the travesty that is MJ he still made phenominal music.

I don't think I ever said they should be prohibited by law from discriminating.I said I wouldn't want my son to be part of any group that did. Nor would I support them. That's *my* right.

 

[Gunny]

I don't think I ever said they should be prohibited by law from discriminating.I said I wouldn't want my son to be part of any group that did. Nor would I support them. That's *my* right.

Interesting. By definition, any group or organization is discriminatory. That's what makes them a group/organization apart from others.

Having spent a good 7 years in Cub/Boy Scouts, I have no problem supporting the organization. It teaches good morals, and responsibility. The fact that it discriminates against abnormal behavior is hardly a bad thing.

 

[jillian]

Interesting. By definition, any group or organization is discriminatory. That's what makes them a group/organization apart from others.

Having spent a good 7 years in Cub/Boy Scouts, I have no problem supporting the organization. It teaches good morals, and responsibility. The fact that it discriminates against abnormal behavior is a good thing.

Like I said, my husband was an Eagle Scout. He and I think their hurtful treatment of young men who are what they're born is disgusting. We think that's immoral.

Just our opinions.

 

[Gunny]

Like I said, my husband was an Eagle Scout. He and I think their hurtful treatment of young men who are what they're born is disgusting. We think that's immoral.

Just our opinions.

You consider that immoral, but don't consider homosexuality immoral? Hmmm ...

I'll make the same argument about Boy Scouts I make about the military ... a person's sexual preference shouldn't be an issue. Don't open your mouth and nobody knows.

And I consider Billy talking about what-all he did with is wife the night before just as tasteless as Billy talking about what-all he did with Bobby.

The fact is, it's the people who are determined to define who and what they are by their sexual behavior and where it under everybody's nose that screw it up for everyone else.

 

[jillian]

You consider that immoral, but don't consider homosexuality immoral? Hmmm ...

I'll make the same argument about Boy Scouts I make about the military ... a person's sexual preference shouldn't be an issue. Don't open your mouth and nobody knows.

And I consider Billy talking about what-all he did with is wife the night before just as tasteless as Billy talking about what-all he did with Bobby.

The fact is, it's the people who are determined to define who and what they are by their sexual behavior and where it under everybody's nose that screw it up for everyone else.

But if Billy talked about what he did with Susie, he wouldn't get thrown out of the scouts.

Immoral? No. They are born what they're born. Morality has nothing to do with it any more than it has anything to do with me being attracted to the opposite sex.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

But if Billy talked about what he did with Susie, he wouldn't get thrown out of the scouts.

Immoral? No. They are born what they're born. Morality has nothing to do with it any more than it has anything to do with me being attracted to the opposite sex.

Then you do not believe your own religious scriptures.

 

[jillian]

I wear mixed fibers, too... and I don't think adulteresses should be stoned to death.

oh my....

 

[Psychoblues]

That's a common domination stunt, jillian, by rgs.

I wear mixed fibers, too... and I don't think adulteresses should be stoned to death.

oh my....

That is the problem that I see with religion in general.

 

[Gunny]

But if Billy talked about what he did with Susie, he wouldn't get thrown out of the scouts.

Immoral? No. They are born what they're born. Morality has nothing to do with it any more than it has anything to do with me being attracted to the opposite sex.

Don't know how it is nowadays, but when I was in Scouts, talking like that would get you sent home.

Here's where we disagree. I don't believe homosexuals are born homosexual. There is as of this date, no evidence to prove they are. The only evidence is manifested by actual behavior. Behavior which is considered abnormal.

It is not immoral to be exculsive. If morality has nothing to do with your belief in regard to homosexuality; it likewise, has nothing to do with other people's beliefs in homosexuality.

 

[Diuretic]

Don't know how it is nowadays, but when I was in Scouts, talking like that would get you sent home.

Here's where we disagree. I don't believe homosexuals are born homosexual. There is as of this date, no evidence to prove they are. The only evidence is manifested by actual behavior. Behavior which is considered abnormal.

It is not immoral to be exculsive. If morality has nothing to do with your belief in regard to homosexuality; it likewise, has nothing to do with other people's beliefs in homosexuality.

Mix of ideas there. Please let me introduce Occam's Sabre.

It doesn't matter what you believe Gunny - but to be fair it doesn't matter what I believe either. Homosexual behaviour is considered abnormal in some places and times and quite acceptable in other places and times. "Normal" and "deviant" are socially defined (see Durkheim). Sexuality has been around for a while. It has many manifestations. One of the problems I have with condemnation of certain forms of sexuality is that not a lot of thought goes into thinking about why it should be condemned.