USAs high tax and laffer curve

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Carried interest & investment income should be taxed the exact same way as employment income. Get rid of the loopholes & drop the top tax rate down to 29%.

investment income has already been taxed before it is investment income.

Why not give tax subsidies to investors since they are the ones that grow the economy. Growing is how we got from the stone age to here. This is agood thing. Why tax growth when we might reward and encourage it??

 

[Toro]

If all taxes were passed on to the consumer, then corporations would never fight a tax increase, since it could merely be passed on to consumers.

all costs including taxes are passed on to consumers and in the long run profits are competitively reduced to zero thanks to the egalitarian nature of capitalism.

However, taxes are not applied evenly against single products, but rather unevenly against entire corporations; so each individual corporations will fight tooth and nail to reduce his taxes more than a competitor to gain a competitive edge against that competitor and against unseen competitors with substitute goods.

Profits are NOT competitively reduced to zero. Excess profits are competitively reduced to zero. Profits, over the long-run, should equal the opportunity cost of capital. The opportunity cost of capital is the growth rate of the economy. If there were no profits, capitalism would collapse.

 

[KissMy]

Carried interest & investment income should be taxed the exact same way as employment income. Get rid of the loopholes & drop the top tax rate down to 29%.

investment income has already been taxed before it is investment income.

Why not give tax subsidies to investors since they are the ones that grow the economy. Growing is how we got from the stone age to here. This is agood thing. Why tax growth when we might reward and encourage it??

That double taxation on dividends crap is BS. Many business pay no tax, a lot of them are subsidized. When they dropped the tax on investment income it did not help the economy. Investors still have to do something with their money. They only get taxed if they make a profit. They get a deduction if they lose. The Wallstreet casino created in 1999 is not growing jobs or the economy. It is just transferring wealth.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

When they dropped the tax on investment income it did not help the economy.

of course anything we do to encourage investment will lead to economic growth as opposed to anything we do to discourage growth like taxing investment capital.

Here's a simple example even a liberal can understand. When you tax venture capital there is less venture capital and fewer Apples Google and Intels.

Do you want more or fewer Apples Googles and Intels???

 

[KissMy]

When they dropped the tax on investment income it did not help the economy.

of course anything we do to encourage investment will lead to economic growth as opposed to anything we do to discourage growth like taxing investment capital.

Here's a simple example even a liberal can understand. When you tax venture capital there is less venture capital and fewer Apples Google and Intels.

Do you want more or fewer Apples Googles and Intels???

Apple, Google & Intel were created when we had double tax on dividends. The money still gets invested. Apple, Microsoft & Facebook started with investments from friends, families & fools (FFF's). Exempt these people from investment tax. Angel investors are the next group that comes in after the FFF's. Then Venture Capital & Wallstreet get involved, because they only invest in proven businesses. They are the richest people in the world like Warren Buffet who has not paid any taxes since 2004. The average top earner only pays 17% of their income while the rest of us pay a shit-load more than that. FFF's & Angel investors are the job creators. Wallstreet squeezes out profits & cuts jobs. The best way to stimulate FFF's & Angel investors is to exempt the first 50k of investment income. These people will be scouring the earth for investments if we do that. After that tax as regular income.

Prior to the dividend tax cut in 2001 the national debt was dropping $1,000 a second. After that cut the debt has grown at 10,000 a second. The national debt grew twice as fast as the GDP. In 2000 the debt was $5.7T & GDP was $9.4T. Now the debt is $15.8T & the GDP is $15.2T. We are not getting any ROI from that tax cut. Carried interest is the biggest tax break for the wealthy that is not doing jack for job creation.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Apple, Google & Intel were created when we had double tax on dividends. The money still gets invested. Apple, Microsoft & Facebook started with investments from friends, families & fools (FFF's).

they mostly get different kinds of investment help as they grow but its all taxed as capital gains. In the venture capital industry they say 'Shots on Goal". THe more shots they can take the more they will score. Therefore, the idiotic notion of taxing venture capital can only be liberal!!

idiot liberal want to tax them as if they are going to get the money. Really it must be about envy since it makes no sense.

 

[KissMy]

The best way to stimulate FFF's, Angel investors & Venture Capital is to exempt the first 100k of investment income. These people will be scouring the earth for investments if we do that. After that tax as regular income.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The best way to stimulate FFF's, Angel investors & Venture Capital is to exempt the first 100k of investment income. These people will be scouring the earth for investments if we do that. After that tax as regular income.

why not subsidize the first $10 million invested by 50% so we could get the economy going?? You act like getting the government money ought to be a serious priority?? Why on earth?? Are you on welfare??

 

[Euro]

The Laffer curve is, for the most part, bullshit as it applies to income taxes in the US, except maybe at very high levels. But the empirical evidence is that cutting corporate taxes does increase total tax revenues since it increases economic activity. We should be cutting corporate income taxes in America and eliminating tax deductions, including many of the nonsense offshore tax-sheltering gimmicks companies use to shelter income.

I think the problem here is that populistic politicians decides to much, when they don’t really understand the consequences. An expert group of economists should control this and not a bunch of populistic politicans with no clue whatsoever.

 

[code1211]

USA world highest corporate tax but not much revenue.

To optimize the tax revenue a lower tax is needed and loopholes and populistic political decission must be ended.

A lower corporate tax will in the Laffer curve give a higher tax income for the government. The curve shows that a medium tax rate is the optimum, and Norway maximises its proffits with a medium tax rate. USA has the highest tax rate and one of the lowest revenues. I also find it odd that what they call the land of freedom etc. has the highest corporate tax in the world? Who would investe and create jobs if the taxes are the highest in the world. Socialist Norway actually has a lower corporate tax than USA. To low taxes as for Ireland isn’t great that either. It is theoretical, but loopholes and populistic politicians destroys the theory that works so well in Norway.

However I think USA has a lot of tax loopholes made by populistic politcians, but with no loopholes it works perfect for Norway. Socialist Norway with a lower tax than USA and also a higher profitt. So why not tighten the loopholes and cut the corporate tax to a lower/medium level

Many politicians need the bribes harvested by granting favorable tax laws to their benefactors. The lying thieves would sell their youngest daughter as sex slaves if it meant a campaign donation and it is not a coincidence that the politicians in the US who head committees like ways and means also have 1000 acre ranches.

Ours is a corrupt system peopled by the kind of slimy, swindling, thugs that you wouldn't feel comfortable riding with in the same elevator.

Our politicians lie, cheat, steal, attack, defame, slander and libel. They are usually numb to their own corruption and always morally filthy beyond the comprehension of the rest of us.

Our tax system is the result of their deceit, greed, averice and hate.

That might be why it's not a sensible system.

 

[KissMy]

The best way to stimulate FFF's, Angel investors & Venture Capital is to exempt the first 100k of investment income. These people will be scouring the earth for investments if we do that. After that tax as regular income.

why not subsidize the first $10 million invested by 50% so we could get the economy going?? You act like getting the government money ought to be a serious priority?? Why on earth?? Are you on welfare??

Welfare? What a ******* joke!

We need to stop the spiraling debt problem. The more money the government borrows from investors is less money that gets invested into job creating companies. The debt created by lack of tax collection & overspending on war, welfare & unemployment is choking off investing in jobs. We are fucked if we don't fix this.

I don't believe the big companies that Warren Buffet, KKR & Bain Capital invest in are creating jobs. We need more small business & start-ups.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

We need to stop the spiraling debt problem.

spending cap, Balanced Budget Amendment, don't raise debt limit!!

those are the obvious and most basic ways and its a 100% done deal but libturds oppose all. Do you know why?? Because their bottom like is more welfare buys more votes!! Fiscal responsibility in effect makes them illegal!!

 

[code1211]

Ed,

I did not know that you believed yourself to be an economic scholar. Let me help you to reassess. You are an economics idiot.

In any basic econ class that goes into micro economics, you will find that price is not determined by cost but by supply and demand. For a number of reasons that would be too complex for you to understand (though quite simple for everyone else). Cost only determines profit margin of the product. If you are stupid enough to price your product based on cost, your competitors will indeed take you out, over time.

Of course, that is in a case of perfect competition, or the Market System. Of course, if you are GE, or Exxon, then you can price as you are able based on the elasticity of supply (again, I would explain this to you, but probably well beyond your simple mind).

And no, I never wondered about comparative prices between cars and apples. If you are wondering about that yourself, you should probably be committed. To the rest of us, the issue is obvious.

So, what you believe is that we should cover tax costs for corporations. And I asked you for examples of where that had been done. Obviously, you failed to find any.

Let me know when you need your next econ lesson. Hopefully, someone else will do it next time, Schooling idiots is boring.

Supply is also a function of cost. If it costs less, then there will be more supply, all else considered. Ed is right about that.

Ed is not right that all taxes are passed along towards consumers. Some are, some are not. It depends on price elasticity. If prices are less elastic, more will be passed on to consumers. If prices are more elastic, the cost is born more so by shareholders. However, taxes will decrease supply since it increases costs. Eventually, the return on capital will recalibrate to its opportunity cost, and if the relative opportunity cost increases, capital will leave and supply will as well. If all taxes were passed on to the consumer, then corporations would never fight a tax increase, since it could merely be passed on to consumers. This, obviously, is not the case.

The Laffer curve is, for the most part, bullshit as it applies to income taxes in the US, except maybe at very high levels. But the empirical evidence is that cutting corporate taxes does increase total tax revenues since it increases economic activity. We should be cutting corporate income taxes in America and eliminating tax deductions, including many of the nonsense offshore tax-sheltering gimmicks companies use to shelter income.

No, cost is not a determination of supply. Supply of manufactured product will not increase unless there is enough demand to buy the product at the PRICE that the product is being sold at. If costs go down, the
sellers may well be willing to sell for less, moving the price downward. Again supply and demand. Again, in a competitive market. However, if not competitive (ie, monopolistic) then all bets are off. Typically proffits will increase. Take for example, the increases in gas prices lately. Supply was up, demand was down, but prices increased. Why? Monopolistic industry which allows the seller to set prices.

Your statement that empirical evidence shows that lowering corporate taxes increases tax revenue would be good news for the Reagan economists, who found just the opposite. What is your bempirical evidence? I have been unable to find any. I keep asking, no one will provide the date of when this happened.

Another case you may want to look at is when w decreased taxes. Deficit again increased due to shrinking tax revenues. Where is the evidence???

I'm not sure what real world examples you are thinking about. One that comes to mind is the one in which yaught makers were taxed to increase the tax income for government and it would come only from the Fat Cats who buy yaughts.

Problem was that the tax only applied to the American yaught makers who were soon all out of business because the Fat Cats starting buying their yaughts from Canadian suppliers instead so the tax revenues, the income taxes and the property taxes all evaporated. The laborers all went on unemployment and the local governments not only did not receive enhanced tax revenues, the revenues decreased and the care expenses for the unemployed increased.

That is the real world result of increased taxes.

Businesses don't pay tax, they only collect it.

 

[Euro]

USA world highest corporate tax but not much revenue.

To optimize the tax revenue a lower tax is needed and loopholes and populistic political decission must be ended.

A lower corporate tax will in the Laffer curve give a higher tax income for the government. The curve shows that a medium tax rate is the optimum, and Norway maximises its proffits with a medium tax rate. USA has the highest tax rate and one of the lowest revenues. I also find it odd that what they call the land of freedom etc. has the highest corporate tax in the world? Who would investe and create jobs if the taxes are the highest in the world. Socialist Norway actually has a lower corporate tax than USA. To low taxes as for Ireland isn’t great that either. It is theoretical, but loopholes and populistic politicians destroys the theory that works so well in Norway.

However I think USA has a lot of tax loopholes made by populistic politcians, but with no loopholes it works perfect for Norway. Socialist Norway with a lower tax than USA and also a higher profitt. So why not tighten the loopholes and cut the corporate tax to a lower/medium level

Many politicians need the bribes harvested by granting favorable tax laws to their benefactors. The lying thieves would sell their youngest daughter as sex slaves if it meant a campaign donation and it is not a coincidence that the politicians in the US who head committees like ways and means also have 1000 acre ranches.

Ours is a corrupt system peopled by the kind of slimy, swindling, thugs that you wouldn't feel comfortable riding with in the same elevator.

Our politicians lie, cheat, steal, attack, defame, slander and libel. They are usually numb to their own corruption and always morally filthy beyond the comprehension of the rest of us.

Our tax system is the result of their deceit, greed, averice and hate.

That might be why it's not a sensible system.

Here the press has access to tax decissions and tax money spent by the politicians. Last year a politicians spent 100.000$ on something he favoured, he was fired immidieatly. Why not give the press access to tax decsissions and fire those who spend for personal benefit?

A politician deciding taxes is not very efficient, they are to populistic and only thinks on personal benefit.

 

[KissMy]

We need to stop the spiraling debt problem.

spending cap, Balanced Budget Amendment, don't raise debt limit!!

those are the obvious and most basic ways and its a 100% done deal but libturds oppose all. Do you know why?? Because their bottom like is more welfare buys more votes!! Fiscal responsibility in effect makes them illegal!!

Apparently they can't kick the debt habit. Their plan now is to have the Fed buy up all the debt & charge zero interest so investors have to find something to invest in before their savings get devalued. I think it is fueling carry trading buying other countries debts & buying gold. Our percent of employed has only flat-lined after a steep decline. Investment in the US is over.

 

[code1211]

Carried interest & investment income should be taxed the exact same way as employment income. Get rid of the loopholes & drop the top tax rate down to 29%.

investment income has already been taxed before it is investment income.

Why not give tax subsidies to investors since they are the ones that grow the economy. Growing is how we got from the stone age to here. This is agood thing. Why tax growth when we might reward and encourage it??

That double taxation on dividends crap is BS. Many business pay no tax, a lot of them are subsidized. When they dropped the tax on investment income it did not help the economy. Investors still have to do something with their money. They only get taxed if they make a profit. They get a deduction if they lose. The Wallstreet casino created in 1999 is not growing jobs or the economy. It is just transferring wealth.

So your prescription to heal the economy is to punish those who might be able to help?

Is that you, Mr. President?

 

[KissMy]

investment income has already been taxed before it is investment income.

Why not give tax subsidies to investors since they are the ones that grow the economy. Growing is how we got from the stone age to here. This is agood thing. Why tax growth when we might reward and encourage it??

That double taxation on dividends crap is BS. Many business pay no tax, a lot of them are subsidized. When they dropped the tax on investment income it did not help the economy. Investors still have to do something with their money. They only get taxed if they make a profit. They get a deduction if they lose. The Wallstreet casino created in 1999 is not growing jobs or the economy. It is just transferring wealth.

So your prescription to heal the economy is to punish those who might be able to help?

Is that you, Mr. President?

Only investment in small start-up, R&D & innovation helps. Not tax breaks for investors in large established money machines. Just wait & see what happens to investment when we turn into Greece. All the money will get lent to the government & all taxes will go to pay the interest on the debt.

Apple, Google & Intel were created when we had double tax on dividends. The money still gets invested. Apple, Microsoft & Facebook started with investments from friends, families & fools (FFF's). Exempt these people from investment tax. Angel investors are the next group that comes in after the FFF's. Then Venture Capital & Wallstreet get involved, because they only invest in proven businesses. They are the richest people in the world like Warren Buffet who has not paid any taxes since 2004. The average top earner only pays 17% of their income while the rest of us pay a shit-load more than that. FFF's & Angel investors are the job creators. Wallstreet squeezes out profits & cuts jobs. The best way to stimulate FFF's, Angel investors & Venture Capital is to exempt the first $100k of investment income & 50% cut for the first $250k. These people & anyone with savings will be scouring the earth for investments if we do that. After that tax as regular income.

Prior to the dividend tax cut in 2001 the national debt was dropping $1,000 a second. After that cut the debt has grown at 10,000 a second. The national debt grew twice as fast as the GDP. In 2000 the debt was $5.7T & GDP was $9.4T. Now the debt is $15.8T & the GDP is $15.2T. We are not getting any ROI from that tax cut. Carried interest is the biggest tax break for the wealthy that is not doing jack for job creation.

 

[code1211]

USA world highest corporate tax but not much revenue.

To optimize the tax revenue a lower tax is needed and loopholes and populistic political decission must be ended.

A lower corporate tax will in the Laffer curve give a higher tax income for the government. The curve shows that a medium tax rate is the optimum, and Norway maximises its proffits with a medium tax rate. USA has the highest tax rate and one of the lowest revenues. I also find it odd that what they call the land of freedom etc. has the highest corporate tax in the world? Who would investe and create jobs if the taxes are the highest in the world. Socialist Norway actually has a lower corporate tax than USA. To low taxes as for Ireland isn’t great that either. It is theoretical, but loopholes and populistic politicians destroys the theory that works so well in Norway.

However I think USA has a lot of tax loopholes made by populistic politcians, but with no loopholes it works perfect for Norway. Socialist Norway with a lower tax than USA and also a higher profitt. So why not tighten the loopholes and cut the corporate tax to a lower/medium level

Many politicians need the bribes harvested by granting favorable tax laws to their benefactors. The lying thieves would sell their youngest daughter as sex slaves if it meant a campaign donation and it is not a coincidence that the politicians in the US who head committees like ways and means also have 1000 acre ranches.

Ours is a corrupt system peopled by the kind of slimy, swindling, thugs that you wouldn't feel comfortable riding with in the same elevator.

Our politicians lie, cheat, steal, attack, defame, slander and libel. They are usually numb to their own corruption and always morally filthy beyond the comprehension of the rest of us.

Our tax system is the result of their deceit, greed, averice and hate.

That might be why it's not a sensible system.

Here the press has access to tax decissions and tax money spent by the politicians. Last year a politicians spent 100.000$ on something he favoured, he was fired immidieatly. Why not give the press access to tax decsissions and fire those who spend for personal benefit?

A politician deciding taxes is not very efficient, they are to populistic and only thinks on personal benefit.

You are exactly right.

The TEa Party is trying to bring some sanity to this goat roping contest, but right now the thieves have it rigged to the point that they are above the law, beyond the reach of law enforcement and garententeed their income for life as soon as they get elected.

Our grand experiment has long since been perverted to the wills of the unscrupulous and unresponsive.

We have a very narrow window to stop our slide to becoming Greece.

A little Irony in this:

The founders of the Age of Reason aspired to be like the Greeks and our current leaders will finally achieve it.

 

[code1211]

That double taxation on dividends crap is BS. Many business pay no tax, a lot of them are subsidized. When they dropped the tax on investment income it did not help the economy. Investors still have to do something with their money. They only get taxed if they make a profit. They get a deduction if they lose. The Wallstreet casino created in 1999 is not growing jobs or the economy. It is just transferring wealth.

So your prescription to heal the economy is to punish those who might be able to help?

Is that you, Mr. President?

Only investment in small start-up, R&D & innovation helps. Not tax breaks for investors in large established money machines. Just wait & see what happens to investment when we turn into Greece. All the money will get lent to the government & all taxes will go to pay the interest on the debt.

There is a saying thet everyone knows: "Lead, follow or get out of the way."

For this administration, leadership is not an option. They are fools with no ideas, no plans and no solutions.

Following could happen, but not with this group. They truly believe that they are smarter than the folks who are actually doing the work.

The only option, then, is to get out of the way and this will happen in November.

The economy will turn on a dime in February, 2013.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Only investment in small start-up, R&D & innovation helps.

I sort of like the way Apple killed Nokia, Chrysler is now kicking ass, Facebook, Intel, IBM, Cisco, big Pharma,

maybe a 20 % investment subsidy to big corporations, and a 50 % subsidy to new small businesses makes most sense.