USA impotent against pirates ?

[Charles_Main]

America should support these 'pirates'- we've always believed in the strong taking from the weak, haven't we?

Oh wait, that's only when it's Whites taking from dark people- now I see why this is so evil: those ******* are killing and stealing from White folk! They must be stopped

Note yet another So called compassionate Liberal Projecting his latent Racism on everyone else.

 

[JBeukema]

You fail, Chuck. I'm on record condemning the Liberal ideology.

jbeukema bourgeois liberalism site:usmessageboard.com - Google Search

 

[BrianH]

Three words: Surgical Air Strikes....

 

[HUGGY]

USA impotent against pirates ?


Seemed like it when I was one.

 

[The Gadfly]

I went halfway around the world to keep communist soldiers from torturing, raping and murdering unarmed Vietnamese peasants who didn't agree with their point of view.

How many peasants did we shoot or burn with Napalm? We did a better job recruiting for the VC than the VC did

At least the people I killed were armed combatants

So you say

History records that many of the people the US killed were non-combatants

What history would that be? You mean the "history" according to the John Kerry "vets" who testified to so-called "atrocities" they weren't even in-country to see; or maybe the history written by reporters who were more concerned with making a name for themselves back home, than with telling the truth?

Here's some real history for you. Most of the dropping of napalm on villages (including the one in the most famous picture thereof) was done by the South Vietnamese Air Force, called in by the ARVN, not us. A lot of the officers of the ARVN got their positions by political connections; some were good; many were lousy, and their units WERE the best recruiters for the VC; sometimes we had to protect the villagers from them, as well as the Cong. I know damn well I never called in air or artillery on anything but enemy troop concentrations (mostly those we were actively engaging at the time).

I'm not suggesting there were never any incidents of Vietnamese civilians killed by friendly fire. There certainly were, but in my experience, these were a lot less common than a lot of people think. Most were accidents; misdirected fire, or scared villagers and inexperienced and nervous troops. Large-scale conventional operations caused the majority of this (too many, in my opinion, but those decisions were above my pay grade).

I don't really give a damn what you say about me, but comments like yours do a real disservice to soldiers I saw risk or even give their lives to save those of Vietnamese civilians almost every day. Theirs was some of the most unselfish courage I have ever seen, and I am not going to let you demean or deny it without comment. Their actions didn't often make the six o'clock news, but they happened, just the same. I've seen men take a bullet, shielding Vietnamese kids with their own body; that's part of the truth too, whether you like it or not. I am damn sick and tired of the myth of the alcohol and drug-besotted, slacker/victim/indiscriminate killer American soldier of Vietnam. That canard, true only of a select and dirty few, has been unfairly applied to men who fought as bravely and honorably as any American soldier ever has in any war. Those men did not disgrace their uniform, they honored it, and I for one am tired of seeing their service denigrated and their honor questioned.

I've fought my own demons since I got home, and I've got my own problems and my own nightmares. I've been called worse names than any you've used here, and it hurt, but I'm one of the lucky ones. I came home with all my limbs, I'm not crippled, and none of it has ruined my life. A lot of my brothers weren't that lucky; they will never be whole, in body or mind. They will never walk again, or see again; some of them will never even remember who they are. They sacrificed more, and gave more, than I ever have. So I don't really give a rat's ass what you or anyone else thinks of me; because I have heard it all before anyway, and besides, I had the honor of commanding some of the finest soldiers and finest men I have ever known, and that's all the honor I need. However, I damn well do care about the forty years of lies and half-truths still causing pain to those men who have already suffered more than any man ought to have to. They don't want your pity, and they sure as hell don't deserve your contempt. I want them to have the honor that was denied them for so long. You don't owe me a damn thing, but you sure as hell owe them some respect, and a decent regard for the truth.

 

[JBeukema]

You want truth? The truth is we went into Viet Nam to suppress the locals' attempts at self-determination when they tried to do as we did and break away from a colonial power. The motive was simple: fear of losing access to cheap resources and labour. It was an attempt to ensure the capitalists could continue to exploit the local population, pure and simple. And it was that very exploitation that made the communist movement attractive to so many in the first place. The entire Red Menace was a propaganda campaign based around the bourgeoisie's fear that they would lose profits as markets were lost and they were less able to exploit the world's poor and weak. You fought the rich man's war against your fellow human beings in order to secure their profit margin.

That's the reality of the situation when you boil it down to its true nature and strip it of the nationalist propaganda. It's a story that's been played out numerous times in history.

 

[Care4all]

I went to Vietnam to kill Charlie Cong

You went halfway around the world to murder people in their homeland for resisting French colonialism and you're proud of that?

You are a piece of shit.

you know nothing, other than what you've selectively read....

you are, what you say he is, a p.o.s. for saying that JB!

 

[JBeukema]

History is history, Care

The history of Man is the history of class struggle

The Viet Nam conflict was, at its core, a class struggle between the French Colonialists (and their supporters, including us) and the Viet Namese peasantry (and their allies, largely the communist elements who promised their liberation from foreign colonial rule- and, by extension the ruling class in China which ultimately sought to secure resources and support to strengthen their position against Western competition)

At the end of the day, Gadfly and the rest were tools of the Western bourgeoisie who sought to maintain the status quo and protect the system by which they profited from the exploitation of the Viat Namese people.

The Red Menace was ultimately less a conflict of ideologies (the Chinese and Russian ruling parties had abandoned communist principles and established themselves as a new ruling class) than a competition for resources between members of the Ruling class in the West and the Soviet Bloc as each sought to secure its place at the top of the socioeconomic pyramid.

 

[Care4all]

History is history, Care

The history of Man is the history of class struggle

The Viet Nam conflict was, at its core, a class struggle between the French Colonialists (and their supporters, including us) and the Viet Namese peasantry (and their allies, largely the communist elements who promised their liberation from foreign colonial rule- and, by extension the ruling class in China which ultimately sought to secure resources and support to strengthen their position against Western competition)

At the end of the day, Gadfly and the rest were tools of the Western bourgeoisie who sought to maintain the status quo and protect the system by which they profited from the exploitation of the Viat Namese people.

The Red Menace was ultimately less a conflict of ideologies (the Chinese and Russian ruling parties had abandoned communist principles and established themselves as a new ruling class) than a competition for resources between members of the Ruling class in the West and the Soviet Bloc as each sought to secure its place at the top of the socioeconomic pyramid.

it's easy to say in HINDSIGHT what was really going on behind the scenes, or someone to write the History about it...at the time, it was different....and most who were sent there, were drafted.....

you weren't even born yet, but if you were 18 at the time, you would have been there right next to gadfly.

 

[JBeukema]

it's easy to say in HINDSIGHT what was really going on behind the scenes

Others saw it for what it was at the time. It's just that mentioning the truth in public was likely to get the COINTELPRO sent to keep tabs on you before the FBi took you out.

You can look at conflicts going on today and see the same factors at work. Sometimes it's more evident than others and you do sometimes encounter 'true believers' (as with someof today's jihadist elements), but even then even those movements can ultimately be traced back, directly or indirectly to their roots in class struggle (the ruling class among various groups using religion to secure their hold on power, for instance, gave rise to the Sunni/Shiite divide- and religion continues to be a useful tool for those who use it to control the masses, giving rise to the divides that fuel the current conflicts between Western neochristian and post-Liberal societies, traditional Jews/Zionists, and Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East).

It's debatable how many among the Taliban, for instance, are true believers and how many (especially among the most influential persons) simply recognize the power of religion as a tool of uniting and controlling the masses.

and most who were sent there, were drafted.....

again, pawns of the ruling elite- an old story played out many times in the history of the world

but if you were 18 at the time, you would have been there right next to gadfly.

Perhaps. Perhaps I would have been in prison or Canada as a conscientious objector. Perhaps I would have been taken out by the FBI for being associated with groups sympathetic to world democracy.

 

[JBeukema]

​

The history of all hitherto existing societyhttp://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#a2 is the history of class struggle.
Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-masterhttp://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm#a3 and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight...​

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The Viet Cong ceased to exist in the Tet Offensive. After that it was almost solely North Vietnamese Soldiers sent south to pretend to be Insurgents. THAT is a fact. The press lost Vietnam. The military won in 68. The North was AMAZED when we just quit after winning.

 

[JBeukema]

I've yet to read this book, but it is in my que; judging by the reviews, it should raise some good questions and help further understanding of the conflict in question

Why was the U.S. in Vietnam? Capitalism, in this epoch of imperialist decay, is impelled to maintain a system of oppressed nations as sources of cheap labor and raw materials. The Stalinist leaders of North Vietnam and the National Liberation Front (NLF) themselves stood for a form of statified capitalism -- Ho Chi Minh's Stalinists had butchered revolutionary Vietnamese workers led by Trotskyists after World War II in order to accommodate to French and U.S. imperialism. Still, the fight for national independence was a blow to the world imperialist system. The "domino effect" of a defeat would reverberate across the "third world" and was a real concern for the imperialists.

Vietnam: the 'Working-Class War'

 

[jgarden]

Somalia's secret dumps of toxic waste washed ashore by tsunami
March 4, 2005

THE huge waves which battered northern Somalia after the tsunami in December are believed to have stirred up tonnes of nuclear and toxic waste illegally dumped in the war-racked country during the early 1990s.
Apart from killing about 300 people and destroying thousands of homes, the waves broke up rusting barrels and other containers and hazardous waste dumped along the long, remote shoreline, a spokesman for the United Nations Environment Programme (Unep) said.

“Initial reports indicate that the tsunami waves broke open containers full of toxic waste and scattered the contents. We are talking about everything from medical waste to chemical waste products,” Nick Nuttal, the Unep spokesman, told The Times.

“We know this material is on the land and is now being blown around and possibly carried to villages. What we do not know is the full extent of the problem.”

Mr Nuttall said that a UN assessment mission that recently returned from the lawless African country, which has had no government since 1991, reported that several Somalis in the northern areas were ill with diseases consistent with radiation sickness. “We need more information. We need to find out what has been going on there, but there is real cause for concern,” he added. “We now need to urgently send in a multi-agency expert mission, led by Unep, for a full investigation.”

..... “The current situation along the Somali coastline poses a very serious environmental hazard not only in Somalia but also in the eastern Africa sub-region,” the report says. Toxic waste was first dumped in Somalia in the late 1980s, but accelerated sharply during the civil war which followed the 1991 overthrow of the late dictator Mohamed Siad Barre.

..... In 1997 and 1998, the Italian newspaper Famiglia Cristiana, which jointly investigated the allegations with the Italian branch of Greenpeace, published a series of articles detailing the extent of illegal dumping by a Swiss firm, Achair Partners, and an Italian waste broker, Progresso.

The European Green Party followed up the revelations by presenting to the press and the European Parliament in Strasbourg copies of contracts signed by the two companies and representatives of the then “President” — Ali Mahdi Mohamed — to accept 10 million tonnes of toxic waste in exchange for $80 million (then about £60 million).

Abdullahi Elmi Mohamed, a Somali academic studying in Sweden, told The Times that this worked out at “approximately $8 per tonne, while in Europe the cost for disposal and treatment of toxic waste material could go up to $1,000 per tonne”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article418665.ece

The real culprits may be the Iralian mafia who have been allowed to control much of the waste disposal industry, but many of the world's governments must have known (certainly by 1997) and yet they did nothing.

Perhaps "Mr.Fitnah," the OP, has some bright ideas as to what line of work these former Somalia fishmen turn to, now that their livelihood has been effectively terminated?

.

 

[JohnA]

No, I went halfway around the world to keep communist soldiers from torturing, raping and murdering unarmed Vietnamese peasants who didn't agree with their point of view. From what I saw of Charlie's handiwork, I'd say that was well justified. I can still describe what they did, in excruciating detail, but I don't want to make everyone else here puke (I did, more than once). They weren't animals; animals don't do the stuff the Cong did. You want the REAL murderers, torturers, and baby-killers of Vietnam? That would be the VC. At least the people I killed were armed combatants., and for that, I am TOTALLY unrepentant!

By the way, is "piece of shit" the best you can do? I thought you'd be more original than that. Oh, well, I've been called worse.....

Thank you for your service.

I am sorry that you had to go through that, but my family, and our Country, sincerely appreciate it.

Seconded

 

[BrianH]

No, I went halfway around the world to keep communist soldiers from torturing, raping and murdering unarmed Vietnamese peasants who didn't agree with their point of view. From what I saw of Charlie's handiwork, I'd say that was well justified. I can still describe what they did, in excruciating detail, but I don't want to make everyone else here puke (I did, more than once). They weren't animals; animals don't do the stuff the Cong did. You want the REAL murderers, torturers, and baby-killers of Vietnam? That would be the VC. At least the people I killed were armed combatants., and for that, I am TOTALLY unrepentant!

By the way, is "piece of shit" the best you can do? I thought you'd be more original than that. Oh, well, I've been called worse.....

Thank you for your service.

I am sorry that you had to go through that, but my family, and our Country, sincerely appreciate it.

Seconded

Thirded...lol.

Seriously, thanks for your service. We all appreciate the sacrifices you made to serve our country. If I was worthy, I'd salute you.

 

[JBeukema]

What, exactly, are you thanking him for?

 

[BrianH]

What, exactly, are you thanking him for?

Do you think he asked to get sent to Vietnam?

I think you need to do a little bit of research on what it means to be in the military. It's not a democracy. You don't all sit around a pup tent and take a vote on who wants to go to war and where. It's obvious you've never had your ass saved by a man in uniform... If you knew what these people went through then you'd shut your mouth...and your fingers. You're attempting to sit on here and paint every solider in the United States military with one broad stroke. That's like saying that every poster on these boards are intelligent and capable of waging an argument that makes half-ass sense.

 

[The Gadfly]

it's easy to say in HINDSIGHT what was really going on behind the scenes

Others saw it for what it was at the time. It's just that mentioning the truth in public was likely to get the COINTELPRO sent to keep tabs on you before the FBi took you out.

You can look at conflicts going on today and see the same factors at work. Sometimes it's more evident than others and you do sometimes encounter 'true believers' (as with someof today's jihadist elements), but even then even those movements can ultimately be traced back, directly or indirectly to their roots in class struggle (the ruling class among various groups using religion to secure their hold on power, for instance, gave rise to the Sunni/Shiite divide- and religion continues to be a useful tool for those who use it to control the masses, giving rise to the divides that fuel the current conflicts between Western neochristian and post-Liberal societies, traditional Jews/Zionists, and Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East).

It's debatable how many among the Taliban, for instance, are true believers and how many (especially among the most influential persons) simply recognize the power of religion as a tool of uniting and controlling the masses.

and most who were sent there, were drafted.....

again, pawns of the ruling elite- an old story played out many times in the history of the world

but if you were 18 at the time, you would have been there right next to gadfly.

Perhaps. Perhaps I would have been in prison or Canada as a conscientious objector. Perhaps I would have been taken out by the FBI for being associated with groups sympathetic to world democracy.

Exactly who did the FBI "take out"? I wasn't aware we "disappeared" people here in America.

 

[JBeukema]

What, exactly, are you thanking him for?

Do you think he asked to get sent to Vietnam?

Dunno. There was an active draft at the time. No way of knowing the details of his enlistment without knowing him in person.

I think you need to do a little bit of research on what it means to be in the military.

Either you get conscripted or you sign up for the job. Either way, you end up being a pawn for the ruling elite. With the exception of WWII, you serve primarily to defend the bourgeoisie's economic and sociopolitical interests.

It's obvious you've never had your ass saved by a man in uniform

The cops do have a tendency to show up after the fact, though I don't suppose there's much to be done about that.

That's like saying that every poster on these boards are intelligent and capable of waging an argument that makes half-ass sense.

Yes, clearly you're incapable of that. You can't even answer the question of just what you're thanking the man for. Suppressing Viet Namese self-determination? Protecting the capitalists' source of cheap labour? Combating the spread of an ideology that would undermine the fascist elite? What, exactly, do you think he did that you're thaking him for? You lack the intellectual capacity and honesty to even consider the question. You're unable or unwilling to challenge your political faith and cultural programming.

Arthur Koestler once again comes to mind:

Here, indeed, is the explanation of a phenomenon which has puzzled many observers. How could the intellectuals accept [this dogma]? ... The [dogmatic] novice, subjecting his soul to the canon law of [their leaders], feels something of the release which Catholicism also brings... Once the renunciation has been made, the mind, instead of operating freely, becomes the servant of a higher and unquestioned purpose. To deny the truth is an act of service. This, of course, is why it is useless to discuss any particular aspect of politics with a[n adherent of dogma]. Any genuine intellectual contact which you have with him involves a challenge to his fundamental faith, a struggle for his soul. For it is very much easier to lay the oblation of spiritual pride on the alter of [political vision] than to snatch it back again

The faith in question is, in this case, nationalism and Americanism
​