US to end support for Ukraine?

[Bleipriester]

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I've bolded the facts that I find most important.

And I'm not so sure abourt a continuous war? I don't see any way of the US relenting.

For now at least, I think we have to get through the next 2 or 3 months without a US false flag incident?

In my view, the US has already accomplished its mission. Europe has abandoned Russia. Now, Ukraine learns that US support does not last forever.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That´s tinfoil.

No, that's the fact. For a time during WWII, Russian soldiers went into battle with US weapons, wearing uniforms made in America and eating food shipped over from America. Despite the fact that Russia had partnered with Nazi Germany to invade Europe at the start of the war, once Russia was at war with Germany, it was treated as a full ally by the US, and it wasn't until Russia invaded Europe again at the end of the war that NATO was formed. At that time, the US was the best friend Russia had in the world, and it wasn't until Russian greed and treachery showed itself again that the Cold War started.

The same was true after the USSR was dissolved. The Russians screwed up the transition from communism so badly, that the police in Moscow could not be paid at times and gangs rampaged through the streets. The Russian military was only paid sporadically and the nuclear arsenal was leaking radiation because there was no money for proper maintenance. The US poured $28 billion into Russia, the equivalent in today's money of $50 billion, to stabilize the economy and provide essential services. Along with all that money, the US sent teams of advisors to help the Russians organize a free market democracy, and it worked out so well that by 2001 Russia had one of the fastest growing economies in the world, and relations between the US and the Russian Federation were warm and friendly until Putin and the other ultranationalists came to power and ended all of this.

That´s tinfoil.

You know that's not true. During WWII the US was the best fiend Russia had in the world, and after the dissolution of the USSR, again the US saved Russia from ruin. All of the problems between the US and Russia have come from Stalin's invasion of Europe after WWII and Putin's invasion of Europe last year.

 

[Bleipriester]

No, that's the fact. For a time during WWII, Russian soldiers went into battle with US weapons, wearing uniforms made in America and eating food shipped over from America. Despite the fact that Russia had partnered with Nazi Germany to invade Europe at the start of the war, once Russia was at war with Germany, it was treated as a full ally by the US, and it wasn't until Russia invaded Europe again at the end of the war that NATO was formed. At that time, the US was the best friend Russia had in the world, and it wasn't until Russian greed and treachery showed itself again that the Cold War started.

The same was true after the USSR was dissolved. The Russians screwed up the transition from communism so badly, that the police in Moscow could not be paid at times and gangs rampaged through the streets. The Russian military was only paid sporadically and the nuclear arsenal was leaking radiation because there was no money for proper maintenance. The US poured $28 billion into Russia, the equivalent in today's money of $50 billion, to stabilize the economy and provide essential services. Along with all that money, the US sent teams of advisors to help the Russians organize a free market democracy, and it worked out so well that by 2001 Russia had one of the fastest growing economies in the world, and relations between the US and the Russian Federation were warm and friendly until Putin and the other ultranationalists came to power and ended all of this.

You know that's not true. During WWII the US was the best fiend Russia had in the world, and after the dissolution of the USSR, again the US saved Russia from ruin. All of the problems between the US and Russia have come from Stalin's invasion of Europe after WWII and Putin's invasion of Europe last year.

I see you live in a completely different world. Russia was the strongest allied party, the US support was not all that huge, mostly trucks and jeeps. Did you know that Russia made more T-34 than the US Shermans?
Germany and the SU couldn´t agree on spheres of influence. It is fact that the latest proposal made by Russia was not even replied to.

There was no transition from communism, there was a collapse. The only good thing for Russia drunken Yeltsin ever did was helping Putin to gain power. It was Putin who recovered Russia. Under his watch, wages and retirements grew steadily, the cities were renewed and Russia was on its way back to old strength. Something the US didn´t like to see.

Back to WWII. I don´t see a Soviet invasion of Europe. It didn´t exist. What can Russia do? "Oh we cannot continue the fight outside of our own country, because some future board poster will call it invasion?" Like the US formed its western alliance, the Nato, the SU formed its eastern alliance, the Warsaw Pact.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I see you live in a completely different world. Russia was the strongest allied party, the US support was not all that huge, mostly trucks and jeeps. Did you know that Russia made more T-34 than the US Shermans?
Germany and the SU couldn´t agree on spheres of influence. It is fact that the latest proposal made by Russia was not even replied to.

There was no transition from communism, there was a collapse. The only good thing for Russia drunken Yeltsin ever did was helping Putin to gain power. It was Putin who recovered Russia. Under his watch, wages and retirements grew steadily, the cities were renewed and Russia was on its way back to old strength. Something the US didn´t like to see.

Back to WWII. I don´t see a Soviet invasion of Europe. It didn´t exist. What can Russia do? "Oh we cannot continue the fight outside of our own country, because some future board poster will call it invasion?" Like the US formed its western alliance, the Nato, the SU formed its eastern alliance, the Warsaw Pact.

By the end of June 1944 the United States had sent to the Soviets under lend-lease more than 11,000 planes; over 6,000 tanks and tank destroyers; and 300,000 trucks and other military vehicles.

GI Roundtable 13: How Shall Lend-Lease Accounts Be Settled? (1945) – AHA

"How Shall Lend-Lease Accounts Be Settled?" by Horace Taylor, was published in January 1945.

www.historians.org

Without this critical aid, Russia would never have been able to hold off the Nazis long enough to rebuild its military factories east of the Urals after Germany had destroyed them.

"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."

Nikita Khrushchev offered the same opinion.

"If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war," he wrote in his memoirs. "One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me."

'We Would Have Lost': Did U.S. Lend-Lease Aid Tip The Balance In Soviet Fight Against Nazi Germany?

Ever since the Cold War, many Soviet and Russian politicians and academics have downplayed the role that U.S.-provided weapons and supplies played in the Red Army's ultimately victorious campaign against Hitler's Germany. But there is substantial evidence that the huge influx of materiel made an...

www.rferl.org

Of course there was a transition from communism. In Communist Russia, the state owned almost everything, and after the USSR, nearly everything was put up for sale to private owners, but somehow these sales did not yield enough for the new government to provide essential services, and that's when the US stepped in and provided tens or billions of dollars, and because Yeltsin like Gorbachev maintained warm and friendly relations with the US, western businesses felt safe investing in the new Russia, and by the time Putin managed to rise to power, the Russian economy had already become one of the fastest growing in the world, but all this economic growth was built on the foundation of strong economic ties with the West which Putin has now destroyed.

Near the end of the war when the allies met in Yalta, Russia agreed that the eastern European states should be allowed to choose their own future, but almost immediately reneged on that agreement and held eastern Europea captive. That's the invasion that led to the creation of NATO to stop the Russian expansion to the west and that was the beginning of the Cold War.

Putin's blundering invasion of Ukraine is Russia's second invasion of Europe and one can see clearly that the western allies are forging closer and stronger ties again just as they in the face of the first Russian invasion of Europe after WWII.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Bleipriester]

By the end of June 1944 the United States had sent to the Soviets under lend-lease more than 11,000 planes; over 6,000 tanks and tank destroyers; and 300,000 trucks and other military vehicles.

GI Roundtable 13: How Shall Lend-Lease Accounts Be Settled? (1945) – AHA

"How Shall Lend-Lease Accounts Be Settled?" by Horace Taylor, was published in January 1945.

www.historians.org

Without this critical aid, Russia would never have been able to hold off the Nazis long enough to rebuild its military factories east of the Urals after Germany had destroyed them.

"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war."

Nikita Khrushchev offered the same opinion.

"If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war," he wrote in his memoirs. "One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me."

'We Would Have Lost': Did U.S. Lend-Lease Aid Tip The Balance In Soviet Fight Against Nazi Germany?

Ever since the Cold War, many Soviet and Russian politicians and academics have downplayed the role that U.S.-provided weapons and supplies played in the Red Army's ultimately victorious campaign against Hitler's Germany. But there is substantial evidence that the huge influx of materiel made an...

www.rferl.org

Of course there was a transition from communism. In Communist Russia, the state owned almost everything, and after the USSR, nearly everything was put up for sale to private owners, but somehow these sales did not yield enough for the new government to provide essential services, and that's when the US stepped in and provided tens or billions of dollars, and because Yeltsin like Gorbachev maintained warm and friendly relations with the US, western businesses felt safe investing in the new Russia, and by the time Putin managed to rise to power, the Russian economy had already become one of the fastest growing in the world, but all this economic growth was built on the foundation of strong economic ties with the West which Putin has now destroyed.

Near the end of the war when the allies met in Yalta, Russia agreed that the eastern European states should be allowed to choose their own future, but almost immediately reneged on that agreement and held eastern Europea captive. That's the invasion that led to the creation of NATO to stop the Russian expansion to the west and that was the beginning of the Cold War.

Putin's blundering invasion of Ukraine is Russia's second invasion of Europe and one can see clearly that the western allies are forging closer and stronger ties again just as they in the face of the first Russian invasion of Europe after WWII.

That is not too much in WWII scales.
Imagine:
60.000 T-34, maybe the best WWII medium tank, of wich the 85 types were almost heavy tanks.
KV-1 and KV-2 heavy tanks
JS1, JS2, JS3 super heavy tanks
Tens of thousands of light BT tanks
Thousands of Su "assault guns" (tanks without regular turret).
You come up with 6000 laughable tanks.

The Sturmvoik competes with the Me 109 to be the most built plane ever, Stalin actually said, the war would have been lost without it.
Maybe your Stalin quote is made up, today´s historians are great story tellers but history is not their profession.

And no, a transition is a controlled development. And no, the US did not make Russia strong. And no, Putin did not destroy the economic ties with the West. Welcome to the planet.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That is not too much in WWII scales.
Imagine:
60.000 T-34, maybe the best WWII medium tank, of wich the 85 types were almost heavy tanks.
KV-1 and KV-2 heavy tanks
JS1, JS2, JS3 super heavy tanks
Tens of thousands of light BT tanks
Thousands of Su "assault guns" (tanks without regular turret).
You come up with 6000 laughable tanks.

The Sturmvoik competes with the Me 109 to be the most built plane ever, Stalin actually said, the war would have been lost without it.
Maybe your Stalin quote is made up, today´s historians are great story tellers but history is not their profession.

And no, a transition is a controlled development. And no, the US did not make Russia strong. And no, Putin did not destroy the economic ties with the West. Welcome to the planet.

Earlier you told us you don't trust media that is not state controlled and now you tell us you refuse to consider anything that does not support Putin's false narrative that the US is Russia's eternal enemy. Twice the US saved Russia, once in WWII and again when the USSR was dissolved, and each time Russia responded with treachery. When faced with facts or statements from former Russian leaders like Stalin and Khrushchev that Russia would have lost the war if not for US aid, you have nothing to say but, Lies, all Lies! because you are a true believer and would never all facts to weaken your faith.

The transition from communism to a free market economy was well planned, and laws were passed to set up the sale of state owned property to private investors, but the sales did not yield enough money for the government to provide essential services and the government would have failed if not for massive direct western aid, mostly from the US. If you look at the rest of that decade, it is clear the Russian economy grew almost entirely because of western investment in Russia and western trade with Russia. By the time Putin came to power, Russia had one of the fastest growing economies in the world. This all happened under Yeltsin, not under Putin.

In starting this war, Russia has violated or withdrawn from all relevant treaties and laws and contracts it found inconvenient, so now there is no rational basis for restoring the trust that must come before trade agreements.

You live on Planet Putin, but most of the rest of the world lives on Planet Earth, and no one but a fool wants to go to Planet Putin. Russia may survive Putin's recklessness and blunders, or it may not, but it is clearly in a state of decline and is unlikely to rise to a level or prominence again in world affairs.

 

[Bleipriester]

Earlier you told us you don't trust media that is not state controlled and now you tell us you refuse to consider anything that does not support Putin's false narrative that the US is Russia's eternal enemy. Twice the US saved Russia, once in WWII and again when the USSR was dissolved, and each time Russia responded with treachery. When faced with facts or statements from former Russian leaders like Stalin and Khrushchev that Russia would have lost the war if not for US aid, you have nothing to say but, Lies, all Lies! because you are a true believer and would never all facts to weaken your faith.

The transition from communism to a free market economy was well planned, and laws were passed to set up the sale of state owned property to private investors, but the sales did not yield enough money for the government to provide essential services and the government would have failed if not for massive direct western aid, mostly from the US. If you look at the rest of that decade, it is clear the Russian economy grew almost entirely because of western investment in Russia and western trade with Russia. By the time Putin came to power, Russia had one of the fastest growing economies in the world. This all happened under Yeltsin, not under Putin.

In starting this war, Russia has violated or withdrawn from all relevant treaties and laws and contracts it found inconvenient, so now there is no rational basis for restoring the trust that must come before trade agreements.

You live on Planet Putin, but most of the rest of the world lives on Planet Earth, and no one but a fool wants to go to Planet Putin. Russia may survive Putin's recklessness and blunders, or it may not, but it is clearly in a state of decline and is unlikely to rise to a level or prominence again in world affairs.

Sorry, no time for your agitation. When I want to check the US government´s mood, I just read your posts, thanks.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Sorry, no time for your agitation. When I want to check the US government´s mood, I just read your posts, thanks.

Feel free to drop in from Planet Putin anytime.

 

[Bleipriester]

Feel free to drop in from Planet Putin anytime.

You should come and visit us. We are the ones with the tanks. We pile them up, because we lack storage.
We can make a round or two through the city and have a beer or something.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You should come and visit us. We are the ones with the tanks. We pile them up, because we lack storage.
We can make a round or two through the city and have a beer or something.

Is that what Putin told you?

 

[Bleipriester]

Is that what Putin told you?

You got cookies. We got cookies AND tanks.

Ukraine lost all of its tanks including those donated by European countries.
All hippies move to Europe and enjoy the demilitarized continent.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You got cookies. We got cookies AND tanks.

Ukraine lost all of its tanks including those donated by European countries.
All hippies move to Europe and enjoy the demilitarized continent.

Putin told you all of Ukraine's tanks were destroyed?

 

[Bleipriester]

Putin told you all of Ukraine's tanks were destroyed?

No, but this Austrian general did:

https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/putins-panzer-bredouille-vier-t-72-fuer-einen-leo-moskaus-brachiale-antwort-auf-unsere-panzer_id_184442490.html

 

[toomuchtime_]

No, but this Austrian general did:

https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/putins-panzer-bredouille-vier-t-72-fuer-einen-leo-moskaus-brachiale-antwort-auf-unsere-panzer_id_184442490.html

From what I've read, Ukraine now has between 500 and 800 tanks before the new tanks arrive and Russia has lost half its tanks.

 

[Bleipriester]

From what I've read, Ukraine now has between 500 and 800 tanks before the new tanks arrive and Russia has lost half its tanks.

It would not make any sense to rush more tanks into Ukraine, then. Only if they are completely depleted.
You, and I, know the tenor was no heavy arms all the time.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It would not make any sense to rush more tanks into Ukraine, then. Only if they are completely depleted.
You, and I, know the tenor was no heavy arms all the time.

Of course it makes sense to rush the tanks there in preparation for Ukraine's spring counteroffensive. Putin is lying to you again.

 

[Ringo]

 

[Bleipriester]

Of course it makes sense to rush the tanks there in preparation for Ukraine's spring counteroffensive. Putin is lying to you again.

Wasn´t it you who told me the offensives are canceled and saving ammo on the schedule?
And do you know that all the tank fuss is about 14 Leopard 2 and 14 Challenger 2? That makes 28 tanks that Europe is capable to deliver.



The Leopard 1 are not on the list, probably because they got no ammo from Brazil:

Military support for Ukraine | Federal Government

War in Ukraine: This list provides an overview of Germany’s lethal and non-lethal military support for Ukraine.

www.bundesregierung.de

 

[toomuchtime_]

Wasn´t it you who told me the offensives are canceled and saving ammo on the schedule?
And do you know that all the tank fuss is about 14 Leopard 2 and 14 Challenger 2? That makes 28 tanks that Europe is capable to deliver.



The Leopard 1 are not on the list, probably because they got no ammo from Brazil:

Military support for Ukraine | Federal Government

War in Ukraine: This list provides an overview of Germany’s lethal and non-lethal military support for Ukraine.

www.bundesregierung.de

I never said the offensives were cancelled. I said I doubted Russia could mount an effective winter offensive. The last count I saw for new tanks was 62 but it will probably go higher. The Russian weren't routed last summer by overwhelming force but by clever tactics and I suspect the same will be true this summer.