US may send fighter jets to Ukraine

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Actually he said he didn't support sending NATO pilots into combat at this time but might in the future. Sending weapons to Ukraine is a decision each country makes for itself and NATO has sent no weapons to Ukraine although some NATO members have, but sending NATO combat pilots into Ukraine would require and unanimous vote of NATO members and that is not likely to happen unless Russia commits some atrocity so huge it cannot be ignored without making those who ignore it complicit in the actions, some atrocity such as using WMD's on the civilian population. Even so, if it did happen, there is no rational scenario that would lead to a world war since other than Belarus, no one would fight on Russia's side.

Thank you for restating the obvious.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

It is nor going to happen, but if NATO pilots confined themselves to defending Ukraine's airspace shooting down Russian planes violating Ukraine's airspace would not be an act of war. Russian planes violating Ukraine's airspace are committing acts of war and helping Ukraine defend its airspace is in no way an act of war.

For NATO to send pilots into Ukraine, an agreement would have to be signed giving NATO planes the same legal status as Ukrainian planes so as long as NATO planes were operating in Ukrainian airspace to defend Ukraine they would be committing no acts of war. In fact, if they hit a Russian convoy heading for the border while it was still in Russia, under international law, if the convoy presented a clear and imminent danger to Ukraine, blowing it up would be an allowable preemptive strike.

Yes, it would be an act of war. Shooting down a foreign country's aircraft IS an act of war. Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

I was a naval officer assigned to two guided missile cruisers. Anti-air warfare was our primary mission.

You have no clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Yes, it would be an act of war. Shooting down a foreign country's aircraft IS an act of war. Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

I was a naval officer assigned to two guided missile cruisers. Anti-air warfare was our primary mission.

You have no clue as to what you are talking about.

You are just not thinking this through. If an aircraft is attacking your country and you shoot it down, it is not an act of war. If Ukraine signs an agreement with NATO allowing it to defend Ukrainian airspace, thus giving NATO aircraft the same legal status as Ukrainian aircraft, then shooting down an attacking Russian aircraft is not an act of war.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You are just not thinking this through. If an aircraft is attacking your country and you shoot it down, it is not an act of war. If Ukraine signs an agreement with NATO allowing it to defend Ukrainian airspace, thus giving NATO aircraft the same legal status as Ukrainian aircraft, then shooting down an attacking Russian aircraft is not an act of war.

That is NOT true. Have you ever sat on a missile console with the missile firing key in hand, missiles on the launcher rails, waiting to see if a potentially hostile aircraft is going to attack? I have!

I am sorry, but you are woefully ignorant on this topic.

 

[toomuchtime_]

That is NOT true. Have you ever sat on a missile console with the missile firing key in hand, missiles on the launcher rails, waiting to see if a potentially hostile aircraft is going to attack? I have!

I am sorry, but you are woefully ignorant on this topic.

Your posts are not even relevant to the issue. Shooting down an enemy aircraft invading your airspace is not an act of war and if Ukraine signs a defense agreement with NATO, they NATO pilots have the same right to shoot down that enemy aircraft invading Ukraine's airspace and it is not an act of war.

 

[Missourian]

Yeah we do. Unless we want another European war.

When they get to the English Channel... give me a call...until then...let Europe solve Europe's problems. We aren't the World Police

 

[toomuchtime_]

When they get to the English Channel... give me a call...until then...let Europe solve Europe's problems. We aren't the World Police

That's what the US did in the 1930's and it worked out great for us, right?

 

[Missourian]

That's what the US did in the 1930's and it worked out great for us, right?

Russia can't even get past the Danube.

Believe me when I tell you, waiting for the call that Russia reached the English Channel isn't going to keep me up at night.

If it makes you feel better you can send me a text when they cross the Rhine... I'll be expecting it around the time Buck Rogers makes it back from his deep space mission.

 

[ESay]

The most complicated ones are the German SPG's for maintenance. The best thing to do is rotate them out with fresh pieces and do the depot work in Poland or Germany. The training was short and intense and focused on getting good with the system, not on maintaining them.

The crews are doing the daily maintenance already, so it's really when they need major work they have to go back to the depot. I also see the numbers going up steadily as more crews are trained up, I think the donor nations are prepared to rotate out equipment as needed.

The USAF has been trying to unload their A-10's for years, they are chomping at the bit to give them to Ukraine. Your SU-25 drivers could learn the A-10 PDQ. Tell Zelensky when you see him, lol.

That's really what Ukraine needs. They are made to operate in that kind of battlespace and survive. Fast jets can come later, you guys need some ground-pounders. A-10's are the shit.

Russia has the largest artillery park in the world. No one knows how much ammunition is stockpiled or how much they can produce. And Putin can mobilize a huge army, and cannon fodder or not- they will still be shooting at Ukrainians.

They've made it pretty clear, I think? Novorossiya is the intent.

Ukraine is doing what they need to do, which is show the west that they can use the weapons effectively. But Ukraine also has to show Europe that Ukrainians can win if they are given their full support.

There is a tough winter ahead for Europeans- there will will be complaining. If Ukraine can take back Kherson, that would make a big impact both on European and Ukrainian morale.

Taking Kherson back will be a major win for Ukraine, especially when taking into account its location. When it will be done on practice (or if) remains to be seen.

The question is not only about the Europeans. You will have the mid-term elections in November and as I can understand the Republicans are going to get major wins there.

What approach the Republican Congress will take about this issue I can only guess.

 

[para bellum]

The question is not only about the Europeans. You will have the mid-term elections in November and as I can understand the Republicans are going to get major wins there.

What approach the Republican Congress will take about this issue I can only guess.

The standalone Ukraine aid bill ($40Bn) got 72% (149 of 206) of the republican vote in May. The bill passed 368-57.

I know you can't tell from this board, but most republicans are with Ukraine. The republicans who aren't are the ones who can't separate domestic politics from foreign policy, and are busily snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

If they had a lick of sense they would be all over Biden for his half-hearted, slow-walking response. At the same time they should be demanding a reversal on US domestic energy policy in the name of supplying gas and oil to Europe this winter. That kills two birds with one stone. Cutting off the funding to Putin's war, and positioning the US as a major energy supplier to Europe.

Those two policies would resonate with Americans and give the GOP a solid majority in both houses of the Congress.

But they choose to fight amongst themselves. So whatever happens in November, it won't be a tsunami, and the GOP will not be as well positioned in 2024 as they could otherwise be.

And our two leading contenders for 2024 are being non-committal and trying to straddle the issue, which is also a cowardly political position. Not good for them to make Biden look tough in comparison.

The GOP is quite a mess, actually. It doesn't make me happy to say that, but I know all the backbiting is hurting us.

 

[ESay]

The standalone Ukraine aid bill ($40Bn) got 72% (149 of 206) of the republican vote in May. The bill passed 368-57.

I know you can't tell from this board, but most republicans are with Ukraine. The republicans who aren't are the ones who can't separate domestic politics from foreign policy, and are busily snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

If they had a lick of sense they would be all over Biden for his half-hearted, slow-walking response. At the same time they should be demanding a reversal on US domestic energy policy in the name of supplying gas and oil to Europe this winter. That kills two birds with one stone. Cutting off the funding to Putin's war, and positioning the US as a major energy supplier to Europe.

Those two policies would resonate with Americans and give the GOP a solid majority in both houses of the Congress.

But they choose to fight amongst themselves. So whatever happens in November, it won't be a tsunami, and the GOP will not be as well positioned in 2024 as they could otherwise be.

And our two leading contenders for 2024 are being non-committal and trying to straddle the issue, which is also a cowardly political position. Not good for them to make Biden look tough in comparison.

The GOP is quite a mess, actually. It doesn't make me happy to say that, but I know all the backbiting is hurting us.

Yeah, reading this forum I have an impression that 70% of the Reps want isolationism policy in foreign relations. Quite an awkward idea in the 21 century. But that is only my impression.

About supplying oil to Europe.. There was a thread criticising exporting American oil overseas when the gas prices are so high in the US. I don't think this idea will be too popular among them.

The notion that exporting American oil on an international market can lower the prices in the US escapes from them. Isolationism paradigm.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has pleaded for fighter jets for months, saying Russia's air supremacy has been a major stumbling block in his country's efforts to repel the invasion. In March, the U.S. and NATO scuttled Poland's proposal to send its Russian-built MiGs to Ukraine. White House national security spokesman John Kirby said at the time the proposal might be "mistaken as escalatory" and could provoke a Russian military confrontation with NATO.

© Monika Skolimowska, APCharles Quinton Brown Jr, U.S. general and chief of staff of the United States Air Force, smiles as his visits the Tactical Air Wing 73 'Steinhoff' in Laage, Germany, Monday, July, 11, 2022.
Brown said Wednesday that Russian MiGs won't be sent to Ukraine, saying with a laugh that it will "be tougher to get parts" from the Russians.
“It'll be something non-Russian," he said. "I could probably tell you that, but I can't tell you exactly what it's going to be."

MSN

www.msn.com

Excellent news if true.

And here comes the next war

 

[ESay]

The most complicated ones are the German SPG's for maintenance. The best thing to do is rotate them out with fresh pieces and do the depot work in Poland or Germany. The training was short and intense and focused on getting good with the system, not on maintaining them.

The crews are doing the daily maintenance already, so it's really when they need major work they have to go back to the depot. I also see the numbers going up steadily as more crews are trained up, I think the donor nations are prepared to rotate out equipment as needed.

The USAF has been trying to unload their A-10's for years, they are chomping at the bit to give them to Ukraine. Your SU-25 drivers could learn the A-10 PDQ. Tell Zelensky when you see him, lol.

That's really what Ukraine needs. They are made to operate in that kind of battlespace and survive. Fast jets can come later, you guys need some ground-pounders. A-10's are the shit.

Russia has the largest artillery park in the world. No one knows how much ammunition is stockpiled or how much they can produce. And Putin can mobilize a huge army, and cannon fodder or not- they will still be shooting at Ukrainians.

They've made it pretty clear, I think? Novorossiya is the intent.

Ukraine is doing what they need to do, which is show the west that they can use the weapons effectively. But Ukraine also has to show Europe that Ukrainians can win if they are given their full support.

There is a tough winter ahead for Europeans- there will will be complaining. If Ukraine can take back Kherson, that would make a big impact both on European and Ukrainian morale.

Oh and I forgot to mention. Transnistria. Resolving this issue is long overdue. As long as the Russian troops are there, Odesa will be under the threat.

 

[toobfreak]

Excellent news if true.

Yes, excellent news that we are digging in deeper still in our naked proxy war with a major nuclear superpower as Russia tightens it grip in a conflict that should have been settled back in April.

 

[MisterBeale]

there's nothing anyone can do about it, then why post? Why do anything?

If you are able to digest what I have posted, if you can follow the history, and dig into everything I have posted, and continue with that research?

If you can follow that through? The point is? Stop being, what the party apparachiks in the Soviet system, would call, a "useful idiot."

If everyone refuses, there can be none of this, on any side.

 

[toomuchtime_]

And here comes the next war

What war? Between which nations? Don't keep me in suspense.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Yes, excellent news that we are digging in deeper still in our naked proxy war with a major nuclear superpower as Russia tightens it grip in a conflict that should have been settled back in April.

With this invasion, Putin has violated every agreement Russia had made with Ukraine and other powers regarding Ukraine so it makes no sense to sign a new agreement with Russia. This war can only end with the defeat of Russia's imperialist invasion of Ukraine. There is no proxy war going on, Comrade. The war is between Ukraine and the Russian invaders and the US is just one of Ukraine's many allies that are providing assistance to Ukraine to defend itself against Putin's imperialist ambitions. It continues to be shocking to see people who would identify themselves as conservative touting Russian propaganda.

 

[bendog]

btw, it's not the neocons who are warning that if we all don't act to stop Putin/Russia now, we will return to Cold War borders with Putin having no disensentives to invade neighbors.

‘France Has Delivered Almost Nothing’

 

[Ringo]

I do not call for US ground forces in Ukraine. What is needed is for people to let Ukrainians fight for their country- which if successful, will stop Putin's imperial ambitions, and probably end his presidency.

In Mexico, there is a real war on crime, with drug syndicates, thousands of people have become victims. How would you look at the fact that at the request of Mexico, China will build its bases in Mexico, provide its weapons and resources for the war against drug syndicates, of course. O.K.?

 

[Ringo]

With this invasion, Putin has violated every agreement Russia had made with Ukraine and other powers regarding Ukraine so it makes no sense to sign a new agreement with Russia.

Was the illegal, paid and supported by the United States armed coup of 2014 in Ukraine, the driving force of which was the ukrainian nazis, part of these agreements that you are talking about?
Or is a real legal agreement for you when the United States dictates its will, regardless of any interests of the other side? I'm sorry, but that time has passed.