US Drawing Up Plans To Sink the Russian Black Sea Fleet: Ukrainian Official

[Donald H]

They're called contingency plans. When I was in the Air Force at Office Air Force Base just south of Omaha, Nebraska; I lived in a dorm on base. We shared that dorm with strategic Air command personnel. They were always talking about contingency plans. This seems to be what they're all talking about. It is not a definite plan of action, it's a possible plan of action. They probably have a dozen such plans on different scenarios involving the same subject. Nothing to be concerned about.

I would suggest that it's more like a 'statement' that is intended to be heard by the American people, for the pupose of building confidence?

Why do I think that? Because that's what it has accomplished right here on this forum.

But this thread has also revealed a trainload of doubt.

The American people could put an end to his high risk business, if the propaganda begins to fail. It usually does fail eventually and when it does it leads to losing a war!

 

[Donald H]

This might be useful to this discussion in that it's Biden spilling the beans on the purpose of the war. This topic has been expanded to questioning America's purpose.

Biden reveals American goals in Ukraine

The “free world” must make Russia fail in Ukraine, US President Joe Biden has said

www.rt.com

Biden does however mention the Ukraine's security as an after thought.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Then you can go home, because it isn't.

Exactly right. 99% of what Putin says is intended for domestic consumption and claiming that this war is between Russia and the US or Russia and NATO is going to rouse more support than simply telling the truth that the war is simply the result of Russia trying to steal Ukraine.

However, apparently even Putin became disgusted with these lies about the war and told the truth as he understands it.

'Vladimir Putin has compared himself to the 18th-century Russian tsar Peter the Great, drawing a parallel between what he portrayed as their twin historic quests to win back Russian lands.

“Peter the Great waged the great northern war for 21 years. It would seem that he was at war with Sweden, he took something from them. He did not take anything from them, he returned [what was Russia’s],” the Russian president said on Thursday after a visiting an exhibition dedicated to the tsar.


After months of denials that Russia is driven by imperial ambitions in Ukraine, Putin appeared to embrace that mission, comparing Peter’s campaign with Russia’s current military actions.

“Apparently, it is also our lot to return [what is Russia’s] and strengthen [the country]. And if we proceed from the fact that these basic values form the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in solving the tasks that we face.”

Putin, now in his 23rd year in power, has repeatedly sought to justify Russia’s actions in Ukraine, where his forces have devastated cities, killed thousands and forced millions of people to flee, by propounding a view of history that asserts Ukraine has no real national identity or tradition of statehood.


Critics said Putin’s remarks proved that his complaints about historical injustice, eastward Nato expansion, and other grievances with the west were all a facade for a traditional war of conquest.'

Putin compares himself to Peter the Great in quest to take back Russian lands

President draws parallel with tsar who waged war on Sweden and says campaign in Ukraine stems from ‘basic values’

www.theguardian.com

 

[miketx]

China is watching Putin’s faltering military and collapsing economy with great interest.

Will they come in to rescue Russia out of the goodness of their heart?
Highly unlikely
They will provide Russia with vital supplies in return for cut rates on oil and natural resources

Basically a Colonial relationship

You don't a damn thing about what anyone is doing.

 

[ESay]

There will be no win for Ukraine without direct US boots on the ground.

Depends on what can be considered a 'win' for Ukraine. Stalling Russian advance mainly on the line they control now falls in this category. Some think so, at least.

 

[Donald H]

Critics said Putin’s remarks proved that his complaints about historical injustice, eastward Nato expansion, and other grievances with the west were all a facade for a traditional war of conquest.'

You've done as professional job as is possible to make the (some) point?
However, instead of insisting that the war is America's attempt to secure Ukraine from Russian control, you've introduced a third option of Russian aggression against a bigger foe. America or the West?

I would welcome the introduction of that theory too.
Are you suggesting that the Ukraine is only a stepping stone for Russia's quest fo world supremacy?
Perhaps along with China and allowing China to sit back and enjoy the advantages of peaceful times?

Your suggestion has several possibilities.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You've done as professional job as is possible to make the (some) point?
However, instead of insisting that the war is America's attempt to secure Ukraine from Russian control, you've introduced a third option of Russian aggression against a bigger foe. America or the West?

I would welcome the introduction of that theory too.
Are you suggesting that the Ukraine is only a stepping stone for Russia's quest fo world supremacy?
Perhaps along with China and allowing China to sit back and enjoy the advantages of peaceful times?

Your suggestion has several possibilities.

No, there is only one possibility, that Putin sees himself as emulating Peter the Great and "taking back" as he puts it, all the land beyond Russia's border he believes rightfully belongs to Russia. With his imperialist aggression against Ukraine Putin has validated the purpose of NATO, which was always to prevent Russian/USSR from expanding its empire to the west.

 

[Delldude]

Right, just like there's no evidence that trump is crazy too. " I'd bomb Moscow. " That would bring about an end to this world as we know it.

Got Putin's attention, didn't it?
What happened when Billy Bad Ass Joe Biden took control of the football?

 

[Delldude]

I can't see that happening unless putin attacks a NATO Nation. But I wouldn't count the Ukrainians out yet. They seemed very determined to be independent of Russia.

Sure they aren't very determined to be dependent on the US?

 

[Donald H]

No, there is only one possibility, that Putin sees himself as emulating Peter the Great and "taking back" as he puts it, all the land beyond Russia's border he believes rightfully belongs to Russia. With his imperialist aggression against Ukraine Putin has validated the purpose of NATO, which was always to prevent Russian/USSR from expanding its empire to the west.

Let's not go right back to the basic disagreement on Russia's intentions. We're not going to find any common ground in debating that.

Maybe instead just debate the talking points that lead up to your conclusion?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Let's not go right back to the basic disagreement on Russia's intentions. We're not going to find any common ground in debating that.

Maybe instead just debate the talking points that lead up to your conclusion?

'There is no common ground to be reached because you refuse to take Putin at his word.

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared himself to the country’s first emperor, Peter the Great, in a speech marking the 350th anniversary of the figure’s birth.

Putin made the comments while visiting a multimedia exhibit about the 18th-century leader, who led a conquest of the Baltic region while at war with Sweden. Putin remarked that Peter the Great viewed the land as rightfully Russian, drawing a connection to the current war Russia is waging against Ukraine.


“He was returning it and strengthening it,” Putin said, according to The New York Times. “Well, apparently, it has also fallen to us to return and to strengthen.”

Putin also noted that when Peter founded the city of St. Petersburg, “none of the countries of Europe recognized it as Russian.”

“It’s impossible — do you understand — impossible to build a fence around a country like Russia,” Putin added.'

Putin compares self to Peter the Great, says he is taking back Russian lands

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared himself to the country’s first emperor, Peter the Great, in a speech marking the 350th anniversary of the figure’s birth. Putin made …

thehill.com

Putin is plainly saying that his intention is to steal land beyond Russia's present borders just as Peter the Great did because Putin comes right out and says he believes all this land rightfully belongs to Russia. He says nothing about the US or NATO or defending Russia or the Russian people; he is quite clear that his whole motive is to expand the Russian empire.

 

[Donald H]

'There is no common ground to be reached because you refuse to take Putin at his word.

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared himself to the country’s first emperor, Peter the Great, in a speech marking the 350th anniversary of the figure’s birth.

Putin made the comments while visiting a multimedia exhibit about the 18th-century leader, who led a conquest of the Baltic region while at war with Sweden. Putin remarked that Peter the Great viewed the land as rightfully Russian, drawing a connection to the current war Russia is waging against Ukraine.

I can understand that to be Putin's perception now, due to America's escalation of the war and his perception of America's goals.
You're correctly suggesting that Putin understands that Russia is in a fight for their very existence. We have moved on together on agreeing that it's much, much more than a war for the Ukraine's sake.

“He was returning it and strengthening it,” Putin said, according to The New York Times. “Well, apparently, it has also fallen to us to return and to strengthen.”

Putin also noted that when Peter founded the city of St. Petersburg, “none of the countries of Europe recognized it as Russian.”

“It’s impossible — do you understand — impossible to build a fence around a country like Russia,” Putin added.'

Putin compares self to Peter the Great, says he is taking back Russian lands

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared himself to the country’s first emperor, Peter the Great, in a speech marking the 350th anniversary of the figure’s birth. Putin made …

thehill.com

Putin is plainly saying that his intention is to steal land beyond Russia's present borders just as Peter the Great did because Putin comes right out and says he believes all this land rightfully belongs to Russia. He says nothing about the US or NATO or defending Russia or the Russian people; he is quite clear that his whole motive is to expand the Russian empire.

You need to substantiate that claim for me.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I can understand that to be Putin's perception now, due to America's escalation of the war and his perception of America's goals.
You're correctly suggesting that Putin understands that Russia is in a fight for their very existence. We have moved on together on agreeing that it's much, much more than a war for the Ukraine's sake.


You need to substantiate that claim for me.

More nonsense. There was never any western aggression toward Russia, let alone an existential threat. NATO's purpose has always been to prevent Russian/USSR expansion of its empire to the west and in a 2005 speech Putin expressed his intolerance of this limitation of westward expansion of the Russian empire.

'Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century” and had fostered separatist movements inside Russia.

In his annual state of the nation address to parliament and the country’s top political leaders, Putin said the Soviet collapse also was a tragedy for Russians.


“First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

“The epidemic of collapse has spilled over to Russia itself,” he said, referring to separatist movements such as those in Chechnya.'

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

In his annual state of the nation address on Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin called the collapse of the Soviet empire “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

www.nbcnews.com

And in his Peter the Great speech he frankly admits the whole purpose of his invasion of Ukraine was to expand the Russian empire to the west.

'Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared himself to the country’s first emperor, Peter the Great, in a speech marking the 350th anniversary of the figure’s birth.

Putin made the comments while visiting a multimedia exhibit about the 18th-century leader, who led a conquest of the Baltic region while at war with Sweden. Putin remarked that Peter the Great viewed the land as rightfully Russian, drawing a connection to the current war Russia is waging against Ukraine.


“He was returning it and strengthening it,” Putin said, according to The New York Times. “Well, apparently, it has also fallen to us to return and to strengthen.”

Putin also noted that when Peter founded the city of St. Petersburg, “none of the countries of Europe recognized it as Russian.”

“It’s impossible — do you understand — impossible to build a fence around a country like Russia,” Putin added.'

Putin compares self to Peter the Great, says he is taking back Russian lands

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared himself to the country’s first emperor, Peter the Great, in a speech marking the 350th anniversary of the figure’s birth. Putin made …

thehill.com

 

[Donald H]

I just noticed that a duplicate thread has been started and accredited to me. Would the moderator concerned please combine the two threads under just one title and if this one is chosen then please take my name off of the OP. I would suggest the moderator own it themself.

 

[Donald H]

More nonsense. There was never any western aggression toward Russia, let alone an existential threat. NATO's purpose has always been to prevent Russian/USSR expansion of its empire to the west and in a 2005 speech Putin expressed his intolerance of this limitation of westward expansion of the Russian empire.

'Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century” and had fostered separatist movements inside Russia.

In his annual state of the nation address to parliament and the country’s top political leaders, Putin said the Soviet collapse also was a tragedy for Russians.


“First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

“The epidemic of collapse has spilled over to Russia itself,” he said, referring to separatist movements such as those in Chechnya.'

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

In his annual state of the nation address on Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin called the collapse of the Soviet empire “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

www.nbcnews.com

And in his Peter the Great speech he frankly admits the whole purpose of his invasion of Ukraine was to expand the Russian empire to the west.

'Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared himself to the country’s first emperor, Peter the Great, in a speech marking the 350th anniversary of the figure’s birth.

Putin made the comments while visiting a multimedia exhibit about the 18th-century leader, who led a conquest of the Baltic region while at war with Sweden. Putin remarked that Peter the Great viewed the land as rightfully Russian, drawing a connection to the current war Russia is waging against Ukraine.


“He was returning it and strengthening it,” Putin said, according to The New York Times. “Well, apparently, it has also fallen to us to return and to strengthen.”

Putin also noted that when Peter founded the city of St. Petersburg, “none of the countries of Europe recognized it as Russian.”

“It’s impossible — do you understand — impossible to build a fence around a country like Russia,” Putin added.'

Putin compares self to Peter the Great, says he is taking back Russian lands

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday compared himself to the country’s first emperor, Peter the Great, in a speech marking the 350th anniversary of the figure’s birth. Putin made …

thehill.com

You're taking great liberties to interpret Putin's words as an indication of Russian aggression.

I think that everybody now sees this war in a totally different light including Putin, as compared to the first month of the war.

But you are right to concede the fact that it's always been America's fight against Russia.

I'll go one step farther in drawing the distinction in this war not including Russia's proxy but it being America's proxy war against Russia directly.

That's very risky in that America's escalations could become beyond the bounds of the a war that must always be limited.

Don't assume that the bear's back can be pressed to the wall!

 

[toomuchtime_]

You're taking great liberties to interpret Putin's words as an indication of Russian aggression.

I think that everybody now sees this war in a totally different light including Putin, as compared to the first month of the war.

But you are right to concede the fact that it's always been America's fight against Russia.

I'll go one step farther in drawing the distinction in this war not including Russia's proxy but it being America's proxy war against Russia directly.

That's very risky in that America's escalations could become beyond the bounds of the a war that must always be limited.

Don't assume that the bear's back can be pressed to the wall!

Every time I disagree with you on a point, you respond by claiming I agreed with you. I repeat, there is no rational basis in fact or logic for claiming the Russian invasion of Ukraine was in any way the result of any US aggression against Russia. As Putin acknowledged in his Peter the Great speech, it was entirely the result of Russia's imperialist ambitions.

There are two wars going on now, the war on the battlefield and the economic war and Russia will lose both of them and have no choice but to withdraw to its own borders just as the USSR was forced to dissolve itself when it could no longer sustain the Cold War.

 

[Donald H]

Every time I disagree with you on a point, you respond by claiming I agreed with you. I repeat, there is no rational basis in fact or logic for claiming the Russian invasion of Ukraine was in any way the result of any US aggression against Russia. As Putin acknowledged in his Peter the Great speech, it was entirely the result of Russia's imperialist ambitions.

You blew it when you conceded that it's always been Russia against US weapons. You hung that Albatross around your own neck!

There are two wars going on now, the war on the battlefield and the economic war and Russia will lose both of them and have no choice but to withdraw to its own borders just as the USSR was forced to dissolve itself when it could no longer sustain the Cold War.

I see it as one war inasmuch as Russia is always going to refuse to lose. And I also see China's high stakes in eventually getting on board on making sure Russia won't lose, if there's any way of preventing that.

I see Russia's resolve alone as a very likely indication of the war not ending before Russia needs either China's alliance in the war against America-

Or it goes nuclear.

 

[Redfish]

China is watching Putin’s faltering military and collapsing economy with great interest.

Will they come in to rescue Russia out of the goodness of their heart?
Highly unlikely
They will provide Russia with vital supplies in return for cut rates on oil and natural resources

Basically a Colonial relationship

nothing new about any of that, its been going on since humans first walked upright. The strong exploit the weak, sadly its human nature.

China wants to be the predominant nation on earth, Biden is helping them achieve that goal. Weak US presidents always result in a more dangerous world.

 

[Redfish]

Ukraine is a very corrupt country that was part of the USSR for decades. Let Putin have it back then the corruption is his problem. Its none of our business as the USA. Of course, the payments from Ukraine to the Biden family might end and that is the only reason the USA is involved now.

 

[Delldude]

Or it goes nuclear.

You see the NYC public service announcement about what to do if NYC is nuked?

Make sure you are signed up for 'wireless emergency alerts' from a city that has just been vaporized.