US Drawing Up Plans To Sink the Russian Black Sea Fleet: Ukrainian Official

[Redfish]

The only reason the Leftists and the career politicians got a weed up their ass about Russia invading Ukraine, is because they still believe Putin rigged the 2016 election to get Trump elected.

you may be right, but that lie has been disproven and clinton allies are going to jail for it.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

if US missiles sink Russian ships ,that is an act of war and we should be ready for what happens next. Are we that stupid?

There's a way to do it and still maintain plausible deniability.

 

[beagle9]

Ukraine was part of Russia before WWI. Was lost to asshole Lenin after a civil war. And independent again after the USSR folded.

Putin is a relic of the USSR with dreams of glory before he dies. Hes a KGB asshole who is better off taking a dirt nap

Was the USSR a super powerful nation in the eye's of Russians after defeating the Nazi's in world war two, and upon it then building itself up into a super power that had nuclear deterrents as a means to say to the world never again ???

So yes after slipping over a long period of time, and then giving up a lot of what made it so powerful after world war two, then one can imagine how easy it is for a leader to look out into the surrounding situation, and to think to himself that Russia could be getting into dangerous territory if it doesn't shore up it's defences and sovereignty once more, and especially as it struggled against Ukraine within it's boundaries during the 2014 out break of war between Russian separatist and Ukranian nationalist that is still on going within the old Soviet Union territories.

Not sure what Putin's mind is thinking, and us cutting off communication's with him has complicated that even more.

 

[Redfish]

There's a way to do it and still maintain plausible deniability.

yeah sure there is. US missiles can easily be identified to matter who fires them. But even so the Biden admin is too stupid for plausible deniability

 

[beagle9]

Bs we are throwing weapons into the fray same as those fuckers throw weapons to Iran and Syria. Funny how their weapons are in Afghanistan too

American made weapons and Russian made weapons are sold to anyone that will purchase them. Now what they do or how they use those weapon's is on the country that purchased them.

Of course there is a rival between our interest in the world and Russia's interest in the world, so as long as that exist there will always be proxy wars waged through the arming of countries that fight those proxy wars in regards to the various ideologies being opposed all across the world.

 

[beagle9]

you may be right, but that lie has been disproven and clinton allies are going to jail for it.

We can only hope.

 

[Ringo]

if US missiles sink Russian ships ,that is an act of war and we should be ready for what happens next. Are we that stupid?

I hope not. Why does humanity need a new strait? The Panama Canal is enough.

 

[beagle9]

yes, its a land grab, Putin is trying to reconstitute the USSR by taking a very corrupt Ukraine back into his control. We have nothing to gain by arming Ukraine, doing that would make us a party in the war and subject to attack . that is an insane idea. Let Russia have corrupt Ukraine, he would shut off the Burisma payments to the Bidens and that is the only reason we are even thinking about entering this fiasco.

If tied to all that mess, then it makes one wonder where we actually stand in the situation ?

 

[beagle9]

which of you that want US involvement in Ukraine is ready to send your kids over there to get killed or maimed? Because that is what you are asking for when you say we should get involved.

Asking for nuclear war if we get involved in ways that would bring such a thing into being.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Ok if Ukraine falls, then what are the risk to the US specifically ? Do explain.... Not wanting Ukraine to fall myself, but how are we tied up in this more so than other's are in the alliance ?

In 1994, the US played the major role in persuading Ukraine to give up its nukes; if Ukraine still had its nukes Russia would not dared to invade, so to my mind the US bares some moral obligation to help Ukraine resist the Russian invasion.

Ukraine and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The real question is, will NATO have the will to fight if Russia attacks a NATO member state, or will Putin believe NATO will have the will to fight if he invades a NATO member state if the US and Europe show a lack of resolve in Ukraine? Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if he had known he would be facing this tough a war? Very doubtful. If the US abandons Ukraine, thus abandoning all the values and principles we were taught in school the US stands for, Putin will surely test NATO's resolve to go to war with Russia to protect Romania or Bulgaria, but will he actually invade them? No one can say for sure, but what we can say for sure is that as long as Russia is bogged down in Ukraine, or better if Russia is forced to retreat from Ukraine, Putin will not be in position to challenge NATO.

 

[toomuchtime_]

not what I said or even close.

Then what was the relevance of calling Ukraine corrupt of pointing out dissent in the context of discussing the Russian invasion?

 

[beagle9]

East Germany was part of the USSR for decades too, so would you say Russia is entitled to take over East Germany too if Putin gets the urge? In 1990, when the USSR dissolved, Russia recognized Ukraine including the Crimea as an independent sovereign nation and even negotiated a treaty with Ukraine under which Russia would keep its naval base in Crimea under as long term lease with Ukraine. There is no rational justification for the Russian invasion.

Russia gave back to Germany what belonged to Germany, so it's not like it would desire to take back east Germany, but Ukraine is something different because it's on Russia's border, and for some reason the Russians and Ukranian's stopped playing it nice with each other... Betrayal is amongst the charge's, but who has betrayed who, and what does oil and gas lines have to do with the mess, and why did Russia have to build and re-route it's oil and gas lines in the upper region with the Northstream pipe line etc ??

How complicated is this crazy mess, and whose telling the truth in it all ??

 

[toomuchtime_]

providing weapons to one side increases the chances of all out war. you have it backwards

There is no rational basis for that statement. Allowing Russia to take Ukraine show a lack of resolve that will encourage Russia to attack other countries and that increases the chances for an all out war.

 

[beagle9]

In 1994, the US played the major role in persuading Ukraine to give up its nukes; if Ukraine still had its nukes Russia would not dared to invade, so to my mind the US bares some moral obligation to help Ukraine resist the Russian invasion.

Ukraine and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The real question is, will NATO have the will to fight if Russia attacks a NATO member state, or will Putin believe NATO will have the will to fight if he invades a NATO member state if the US and Europe show a lack of resolve in Ukraine? Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if he had known he would be facing this tough a war? Very doubtful. If the US abandons Ukraine, thus abandoning all the values and principles we were taught in school the US stands for, Putin will surely test NATO's resolve to go to war with Russia to protect Romania or Bulgaria, but will he actually invade them? No one can say for sure, but what we can say for sure is that as long as Russia is bogged down in Ukraine, or better if Russia is forced to retreat from Ukraine, Putin will not be in position to challenge NATO.

Not sure what Putin's goals were and will be, otherwise because we only know what we are being told without any fact checks on the entire matter. All we know is that Russia is still a nuclear threat, and to force it's hand due to stupidity or lying about the situation may come with dire consequences. It's hard for me to trust at all our current leadership, so I'm running in the blind for sure.

 

[beagle9]

There is no rational basis for that statement. Allowing Russia to take Ukraine show a lack of resolve that will encourage Russia to attack other countries and that increases the chances for an all out war.

Catch 22

 

[beagle9]

So now you are arguing that if you believe a country is corrupt or that there is some internal dissent in it, its neighbors have the right to invade it and take it over. How very Putinesque of you.

Oh so now you are going to manipulate the words spoken by being facetious instead of debating in an honest way ? Russia has been at war in Ukraine since 2014, and it's now 2022. At some point it either escalates or everyone packs up and goes home. Well that didn't happen, and Russia has decided to stay on for the long haul at a great cost to them and Ukraine.

 

[beagle9]

To avoid a potential war between NATO and Russia which would be much more expensive and cost US lives. This current Russian invasion took place because the US and Europeans showed a lack of resolve in opposing the 2014 Russian invasion of Ukraine and if the US and Europeans show a lack of resolve in opposing this current Russian invasion of Ukraine it will call into question their resolve to defend NATO members that border Russia's new borders if it conquers Ukraine and that will make a war between NATO and Russia more likely or result in the end of NATO.

Good points.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Russia gave back to Germany what belonged to Germany, so it's not like it would desire to take back east Germany, but Ukraine is something different because it's on Russia's border, and for some reason the Russians and Ukranian's stopped playing it nice with each other... Betrayal is amongst the charge's, but who has betrayed who, and what does oil and gas lines have to do with the mess, and why did Russia have to build and re-route it's oil and gas lines in the upper region with the Northstream pipe line etc ??

How complicated is this crazy mess, and whose telling the truth in it all ??

It's not complicated at all. Russia and Ukraine did not stop playing nicely with each other, Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin wanted to reconstruct the USSR. Ukraine was still playing nicely and Russia invaded. See, it's simple.

Here's what Putin said in 2005, a few years before he invaded Georgia.

Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century” and had fostered separatist movements inside Russia.

In his annual state of the nation address to parliament and the country’s top political leaders, Putin said the Soviet collapse also was a tragedy for Russians.


“First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

“The epidemic of collapse has spilled over to Russia itself,” he said, referring to separatist movements such as those in Chechnya.

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

In his annual state of the nation address on Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin called the collapse of the Soviet empire “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

www.nbcnews.com

Putin says the invasion was an act of self defense because Ukrainian Nazis were conspiring with NATO to break Russia up into little pieces. Are you unsure if that is true?

If yes, suppose Russia takes Ukraine and then claims some bs pretext of self defense for invading Poland, would that confuse you, too?

 

[beagle9]

providing weapons to one side increases the chances of all out war. you have it backwards

It could be true if the disadvantage was so great or lopsided in the beginning, and then the tide changes in a very decisive way in which causes the original planner's to become hyper defensive towards the very thing that caused the tide to change in that way... The culprit would be high lighted over the situation, and how could it not be ?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Oh so now you are going to manipulate the words spoken by being facetious instead of debating in an honest way ? Russia has been at war in Ukraine since 2014, and it's now 2022. At some point it either escalates or everyone packs up and goes home. Well that didn't happen, and Russia has decided to stay on for the long haul at a great cost to them and Ukraine.

Redfish was not being facetious when he cited corruption and internal dissent as somehow justifying the Russian invasion. Try to be honest.

Russia and Ukraine have not been at war since 2014. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 because Ukraine threw out a pro Russian president and elected a president who wanted to join the EU, not NATO, but the EU for obvious economic benefits. France and Germany then pressured Ukraine to sign an agreement, the Minsk agreement, which ceded Crimea to Russia in return for a guarantee of peace. In 2022 Russia then invaded Ukraine again, claiming it was in self defense because Ukraine was conspiring with NATO to break Russia up into little pieces. Clearly, there is no shared responsibility here, and clearly Putin cannot be trusted to abide by any agreement.