Unions in the US

[JBeukema]

Most likely, yes. They're both national chain grocery stores. Kroger and Publix. Kroger is unionized, Publix isn't.

Looking back in history, did any sizable company offer any of those benefits before the unions demanded it?

Before the unions, no such benefits were offered- competition for workers ended with providing as little as possible. once one companyis forced to give in to the workers' demands, though, it leads other to have to compete in benefits/compensation in order to attracts employees. As more and more companies offer such benefits, the pressure on holdouts increases, until even non-unionized labourers begin to benefit- much as non-union workers today benefit from the 8-hr day, minimum wage, and workplace safety standards won by the unions of old.

 

[The T]

We are talking Union Members on the assembling line THAT BUILD CARS. Get a ******* grip! You are Losing it scabby. Imbecile, read the thread if you are going to keep up. DUH!

Is this supposed to be intimidation? Sorry. There are more workers that get along based on tier own merit than having thugs coerce it.

Try again...you really suck at this shithead.

Not as bad as as you asshole, who answers responses to other people when you don't have a clue about the conversation, imbecile.

Lose you way again?

Keep thinking that. Will you? Promise?

 

[shintao]

And what is China's STAND on Unions? That's right...they're all in JAIL and re-education camps.

What is your point dipshit? That Americans cannot compete with the Chinese even if they are NonUnion scabs?

And the Statist government pukes you so proudly hail sure as Hell saw to that didn't they?

Sorry you lose. Go play elsewhere.

Oh, please fool, do tell us how well capitalism is favoring the American worker beat at his own game. Then try to blame it on Americas 13% that are Union workers!! LMAO!!!! You are a bigger fool than I thought.................

I think this is an admission that socialists won the battle. That it, Mr. Submissive?? LMAO!!

 

[RadiomanATL]

Most likely, yes. They're both national chain grocery stores. Kroger and Publix. Kroger is unionized, Publix isn't.

Looking back in history, did any sizable company offer any of those benefits before the unions demanded it?

Before the unions, no such benefits were offered- competition for workers ended with providing as little as possible. once one companyis forced to give in to the workers' demands, though, it leads other to have to compete in benefits/compensation in order to attracts employees. As more and more companies offer such benefits, the pressure on holdouts increases, until even non-unionized labourers begin to benefit- much as non-union workers today benefit from the 8-hr day, minimum wage, and workplace safety standards won by the unions of old.

I'm not arguing the good that unions have done in the past. I think everyone except the loons would agree that there was a definite need for a union movement in history.

I'm saying that in the majority of cases, now, unions are by far superfluous. And actually, on balance, have done more to harm the workers which they claim to represent in the last 35 years.

 

[The T]

What is your point dipshit? That Americans cannot compete with the Chinese even if they are NonUnion scabs?

And the Statist government pukes you so proudly hail sure as Hell saw to that didn't they?

Sorry you lose. Go play elsewhere.

Oh, please fool, do tell us how well capitalism is favoring the American worker beat at his own game. Then try to blame it on Americas 13% that are Union workers!! LMAO!!!! You are a bigger fool than I thought.................

I think this is an admission that socialists won the battle. That it, Mr. Submissive?? LMAO!!

The noose just gets tighter around your neck...continue will you? Promise?

 

[JBeukema]

By the way, the article is lying to suggest a worker is getting $2,000. benefits a car. That is absurd. Further it is a lie that the workers are getting $75. an hour, when it is only $29.00 an hours. Your dismissed.

That's not the claim. The claim is that unions cost the car buyer 2 grand per car.

And that claim has been substantiated.

1) Have any car manufacturers outsourced to places where the unions have no presence?

2)If so, do the cars made there cost $2,000 less? If no, then your argument falls apart as all the unions have done is decrease the profit margin, rather than drive up the cost to the customer

 

[goldcatt]

Most likely, yes. They're both national chain grocery stores. Kroger and Publix. Kroger is unionized, Publix isn't.

Looking back in history, did any sizable company offer any of those benefits before the unions demanded it?

Before the unions, no such benefits were offered- competition for workers ended with providing as little as possible. once one companyis forced to give in to the workers' demands, though, it leads other to have to compete in benefits/compensation in order to attracts employees. As more and more companies offer such benefits, the pressure on holdouts increases, until even non-unionized labourers begin to benefit- much as non-union workers today benefit from the 8-hr day, minimum wage, and workplace safety standards won by the unions of old.

It's time for unions to get back to basics, think smaller and locally, and for the members to have control of the negotiation process rather than the "labor professionals". Unions per se are not bad and in the past have accomplished a lot of good things, what unions have become and the strategies they employ are detrimental.

 

[JBeukema]

So the only people who are union workers at GM are the assembly line workers? Not the forklift drivers, the parts drivers, the secretaries, the janitors, AND THE RETIRED WORKERS WHO ARE STILL RECEIVING BENEFITS.

Idiot.

We are talking Union Members on the assembling line THAT BUILD CARS.

No, we're talking about hidden costs in the building of automobiles.
.

Clean Air and Water Acts? Should we undo all environmental protection laws because they increase cost?

Clearly, we must draw a line- unions demanding adequate pay isn't a bad thing. However, there's a point where you have to say 'the payment is fair; don't be greedy or you're going to just end up screwing over the rest of the working class to get yours- then you're no different than the boss you're complaining about'

 

[JBeukema]

Gold, are you the gal who said you live(d) near some of the old company towns where the Unions fought?

 

[JBeukema]

I used to think Unions where a great thing, but then my dad (factory worker/farmer) told me about the union that tried to get him several years ago. They basically told him, if he didn't join their union, they'd get him fired. Say the least, my dad refused, and no he didn't get fired, but he told me he lost all respect for unions. He said they would have deducted so much per year for membership and he'd have had to go to meetings and such.

I love the movie Hoffa, even though I have heard that it was accurate and then terribly not accurate, it made me think, brotherhood in a common cause is a great thing, and it always will be, but when you decide to punish the people who don't want with you, well, then your infringing other people's rights to get your own way.

1) don't spit on unionization for your dad's experience; spit on the abuse and crummy behavior of those persons who did wrong by hi,

2)Apply your final statement to the FF who punished the tories by depriving them of their British citizenship and live under a system they didn't approve of to see how ideals and reality don't necessarily mix

If we lived in an ideal world, we wouldn't be having this discussion

 

[JBeukema]

Radiohead thinks because he locked out the Chinese (He never proves how he did it)

If you are unable to imagine industries that do not compete with others due to geographic restrictions, I'm sorry.

Also, you never asked.

From what I understand of your job, couldn't it be done (in theory) be done by anyone anywhere in the world with a computer and a good enough internet connection?

 

[RadiomanATL]

We are talking Union Members on the assembling line THAT BUILD CARS.

No, we're talking about hidden costs in the building of automobiles.
.

Clean Air and Water Acts? Should we undo all environmental protection laws because they increase cost?

Clearly, we must draw a line- unions demanding adequate pay isn't a bad thing. However, there's a point where you have to say 'the payment is fair; don't be greedy or you're going to just end up screwing over the rest of the working class to get yours- then you're no different than the boss you're complaining about'

I never said or implied that we should undo what unions have done. I agree with you on the pay thing. But I think the unions have pretty much outlived their usefulness as a third party arbiter on that issue.

 

[shintao]

Yes. Why are you leaving out the benefits packages and the retiree pensions? That pushes the rate up to around $70/hour, as I showed in the other article.

I am from CA, show me where that $41. an hour is hidiing. And that isn't close (328. vs. 2000.) to what the article cited. Try reality...............LOL!

If you'd read the article I linked, you wouldn't look so silly right now.

Let’s start with the numbers. The $73-an-hour figure comes from the car companies themselves. As part of their public relations strategy during labor negotiations, the companies put out various charts and reports explaining what they paid their workers. Wall Street analysts have done similar calculations.

The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

The first category is simply cash payments, which is what many people imagine when they hear the word “compensation.” It includes wages, overtime and vacation pay, and comes to about $40 an hour. (The numbers vary a bit by company and year. That’s why $73 is sometimes $70 or $77.)

The second category is fringe benefits, like health insurance and pensions. These benefits have real value, even if they don’t show up on a weekly paycheck. At the Big Three, the benefits amount to $15 an hour or so.

Add the two together, and you get the true hourly compensation of Detroit’s unionized work force: roughly $55 an hour. It’s a little more than twice as much as the typical American worker makes, benefits included. The more relevant comparison, though, is probably to Honda’s or Toyota’s (nonunionized) workers. They make in the neighborhood of $45 an hour, and most of the gap stems from their less generous benefits.

The third category is the cost of benefits for retirees. These are essentially fixed costs that have no relation to how many vehicles the companies make. But they are a real cost, so the companies add them into the mix — dividing those costs by the total hours of the current work force, to get a figure of $15 or so — and end up at roughly $70 an hour.​

Here is a reality figure for you.

The cost of providing health care adds from $1,100 to $1,500 to the cost of each of the 4.65 million vehicles GM sold last year.

USATODAY.com - Ailing GM looks to scale back generous health benefits

Considering there are about 1500 Union workers on a line, that is just $1. a man per car.

 

[RadiomanATL]

Radiohead thinks because he locked out the Chinese (He never proves how he did it)

If you are unable to imagine industries that do not compete with others due to geographic restrictions, I'm sorry.

Also, you never asked.

From what I understand of your job, couldn't it be done (in theory) be done by anyone anywhere in the world with a computer and a good enough internet connection?

Thats one of my jobs, and not the one I'm talking about.

It's one of the reasons I decided to go part-time in the radio industry. It's no theory, it's a reality, and has been for nearly a decade. I dropped down to part time so as to not put all of my income into one basket. A basket that could be yanked from me pretty much at any time.

 

[shintao]

Coming from someone who's claiming LeBron James is an average American worker, you really have no credibility here, Skippy.

Coming from someone who thinks he can compete with a Chinese living in a mud hut. LMAO!!! Stick you house pic up there dummy, and explain how you can compete with that chinese? Radiohead thinks because he locked out the Chinese (He never proves how he did it), that their cannot be a contest. So what is your story Davey?? You going tell me you can compete with the chinaman worker with the same skills are yours?? LMAO!!!

Yes, I can, unless you'd like to allow Chinese nationals into the United States Air Force.

Dumbass.

Nah, your costs compared to a chinese airman still leaves you sucking wind. Do you live in a mud hut by any chance? Imbecile!!!

The average salary is about $47 per month for a N. Korean. You making about the same?

 

[JBeukema]

I wonder whether anyone's done the math to compare the long-term impact on the worker of the increased cost of goods and the post-retirement financial benefits of defined-benefit packages (past and present), social security, and other such programs.

Are we (A)breaking even and getting some of it later (B) getting less in exchange for getting some later or (C) somehow coming out on top both now and later?

 

[Cain]

I used to think Unions where a great thing, but then my dad (factory worker/farmer) told me about the union that tried to get him several years ago. They basically told him, if he didn't join their union, they'd get him fired. Say the least, my dad refused, and no he didn't get fired, but he told me he lost all respect for unions. He said they would have deducted so much per year for membership and he'd have had to go to meetings and such.

I love the movie Hoffa, even though I have heard that it was accurate and then terribly not accurate, it made me think, brotherhood in a common cause is a great thing, and it always will be, but when you decide to punish the people who don't want with you, well, then your infringing other people's rights to get your own way.

1) don't spit on unionization for your dad's experience; spit on the abuse and crummy behavior of those persons who did wrong by hi,

2)Apply your final statement to the FF who punished the tories by depriving them of their British citizenship and live under a system they didn't approve of to see how ideals and reality don't necessarily mix

If we lived in an ideal world, we wouldn't be having this discussion

1) I did not spit on them, I simply dis-agree with most Unions in the current day. I detest behaivor like that, but I cannot do anything about it except voice myself against it, which I am doing right now.

2. The Fore-Fathers where a completely different time period, and all I can say is, what happened, happened, but what happens now, I can at least, attempt to change and stop. The Majority should not hurt the minority, in any case. If I can help protect the minority from the majority then I will, but I cannot change the history of a minority getting persecuted.

Well, we will never live in a ideal world, cause everyone's ideal world is different in someway.

I understand where you are getting at in "1)" and I understand, I did not mean to spit on unions if I implied I do, I simply meant to show my discouragement of forceful joinings, which are happening in the Teachers Unions in my state currently, and I just hope that unions will revert back to what they where before, if the individual union has changed.

 

[The T]

No, we're talking about hidden costs in the building of automobiles.
.

Clean Air and Water Acts? Should we undo all environmental protection laws because they increase cost?

Clearly, we must draw a line- unions demanding adequate pay isn't a bad thing. However, there's a point where you have to say 'the payment is fair; don't be greedy or you're going to just end up screwing over the rest of the working class to get yours- then you're no different than the boss you're complaining about'

I never said or implied that we should undo what unions have done. I agree with you on the pay thing. But I think the unions have pretty much outlived their usefulness as a third party arbiter on that issue.

Especially seeing that Unions[Leadership] have become part of the problem. They are coporations unto themselves...

 

[goldcatt]

Gold, are you the gal who said you live(d) near some of the old company towns where the Unions fought?

Some of them. A lot of the labor fights here predate or did not involve what we think of as organized unions though. And sometimes the unions weren't on the side of labor when they were involved. I used to walk past the tree where the Molly Maguires were hung on my way from the parking lot to work.

But yeah, the whole area is old company towns. A lot of labor history in these parts, and a lot of it stays alive as family history here as well.

 

[JBeukema]

I simply meant to show my discouragement of forceful joinings.

2/3 states I've lived in were right-to-work states. The third was California, where was no work anyway.


I support right-to-work laws. Forced membership in a union and union-breaking are two sides of the same coin